Player Retention

[Zak Gordon]

@Viajero,

And that is all credit to what Frontier did well in Elite Dangerous, it is really the only 'grown up' space sim out there (and yes i like NMS well enough for what it does well, but ED feels more sciencey-serious in it's approach). There is lots to like in ED, but also most of us that have been here since the start know where it did not hit the heights it could have, and those early aspirations are good to hold onto imho, even after 7-8 years of development.

 

[Viajero]

@Viajero,

And that is all credit to what Frontier did well in Elite Dangerous, it is really the only 'grown up' space sim out there (and yes i like NMS well enough for what it does well, but ED feels more sciencey-serious in it's approach). There is lots to like in ED, but also most of us that have been here since the start know where it did not hit the heights it could have, and those early aspirations are good to hold onto imho, even after 7-8 years of development.

Oh I fully agree. Lots of things that can be done to improve or add new, no doubt. But overall, even after the poor EDO dlc launch, the game is still doing reasonably well, at least in terms of player base / concurrency (sales may be a different story I do not know). Could have been much better if EDO had been a success since day 1, for sure, but player-wise things are nowhere near the doom´s day scenarios many forecasted months ago.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Except you can't play you're own way, you're forced to play Frontiers way in order to progress only to find glass walls everywhere unless you want to perpetually take screenshots or repeat what you've done previously. If you like Frontiers way all is rosey, if you want to step outside that YMMV...

Hmm... I'd like to rebut this statement, since I've always done things in ways I found fun, and my only complaint is that Frontier keeps going with the full Monty Haul Campaign reward inflation over the years. But two things elude me:

First... what, exactly, is "Frontier's way?"

And what do you consider to be "glass walls?"

edit: And what, exactly, is the definition of "glass wall" in this context? I'd consider glass walls to be things that are easily overcome, since they're so fragile, so I don't really understand how they'd be a hinderance to progress...

 

[d8veh]

I was hoping to wait until the end of the thread before entering this conversation, but…

This is what I remember of this particular chain of events:

It started with Frontier showing blatant favoritism to a large player group by giving them direct control of a mega-ship. My opinion on this was similar to my opinion on player-named minor factions: if they’re going to give players access to things like that, add it to the sandbox for all to potentially play with, rather than picking and choosing who is worthy of special toys and who isn’t. Even if that special favoritism is to my advantage.

At some point, Cannon research discovered a region of space surrounded by other regions that were permit locked. These regions were set aside by Frontier for future content, but it seems when Frontier restricted this volume, they missed a spot. This region was far beyond normal FSD ranges at the time, but within the Gnosis’s jump range. An expedition was announced, and I decided to go along for the ride. I’d wanted to do some deep space exploration, but wasn’t willing to strand myself out in the middle of nowhere, should I decide that exploration wasn’t my kettle of tea. The Gnosis jump seemed to perfect opportunity to do that.

When Frontier learned about the expedition, and thus realized their oversight, they decided to make an event out of their mistake, rather than simply tell Canonn “Sorry, you can’t jump there after all.” Galnet article after Galnet article warned that that region was deep in Thargoid territory, and that the Thargoids would attack the Gnosis en route. Which is why I decided to set out n my own short exploration trip, rather than get stranded in the middle of nowhere after the Gnosis’ destruction at the hands of the Thargoids… which I thought would make a better story than what actually happened.

All I could think about afterwards, as the salt poured in, was, “What did you expect to happen after all those warnings?”

Whatever people had been warned about, had hoped for or expected, the amount of salt that flowed after the event showed that there were an enormous number of unhappy players. That's the point re player retention. You can say that they got what they deserved, or you can be clever and say that you told them so. That doesn't make it any better.

The event outcome could have been arranged to delight the participants, give them something for nothing, make them happy, make them pleased to be playing the game. Instead, the majority were very unhappy.

This is the difference between ED and NMS. NMS tends to uplift you while you play. Lots of things happen to make you feel happy. It's not at all releastic, but it makes you want to play. When I play ED, I always feel that I'm beeing trolled by the devs, like they're a little bit vindictive and working against me in achieving my objectives. I'm sure some people love that, but over 9000 hrs, as I started to see more and more of it, it has worn me down to the point that I don't really play anymore. That's me. I'm happy playing other games, and that's something I would never have considered a year ago.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Whatever people had been warned about, had hoped for or expected, the amount of salt that flowed after the event showed that there were an enormous number of unhappy players. That's the point re player retention. You can say that they got what they deserved, or you can be clever and say that you told them so. That doesn't make it any better.

There would’ve been a lot of unhappy players regardless of what Frontier did. At least they created an interesting story out of their oversight, rather than flipping a switch and saying “No Exploring For You!”

 

[CMDR Bao Bao]

Whatever people had been warned about, had hoped for or expected, the amount of salt that flowed after the event showed that there were an enormous number of unhappy players. That's the point re player retention. You can say that they got what they deserved, or you can be clever and say that you told them so. That doesn't make it any better.

The event outcome could have been arranged to delight the participants, give them something for nothing, make them happy, make them pleased to be playing the game. Instead, the majority were very unhappy.

This is the difference between ED and NMS. NMS tends to uplift you while you play. Lots of things happen to make you feel happy. It's not at all releastic, but it makes you want to play. When I play ED, I always feel that I'm beeing trolled by the devs, like they're a little bit vindictive and working against me in achieving my objectives. I'm sure some people love that, but over 9000 hrs, as I started to see more and more of it, it has worn me down to the point that I don't really play anymore. That's me. I'm happy playing other games, and that's something I would never have considered a year ago.

This type of post always surprises me. You got 9000 hours of play time out of elite. That’s remarkable! What a game!

 

[Brrokk]

Whatever people had been warned about, had hoped for or expected, the amount of salt that flowed after the event showed that there were an enormous number of unhappy players. That's the point re player retention. You can say that they got what they deserved, or you can be clever and say that you told them so. That doesn't make it any better.

The event outcome could have been arranged to delight the participants, give them something for nothing, make them happy, make them pleased to be playing the game. Instead, the majority were very unhappy.

This is the difference between ED and NMS. NMS tends to uplift you while you play. Lots of things happen to make you feel happy. It's not at all releastic, but it makes you want to play. When I play ED, I always feel that I'm beeing trolled by the devs, like they're a little bit vindictive and working against me in achieving my objectives. I'm sure some people love that, but over 9000 hrs, as I started to see more and more of it, it has worn me down to the point that I don't really play anymore. That's me. I'm happy playing other games, and that's something I would never have considered a year ago.

Yes, I'm not sure what FD could have done differently. "Jump failed; nothing happened" perhaps. There wasn't time to code in anything new. I think they made a great job of using existing properties to make an exciting story at short notice.

I greatly enjoyed being a rat leaving the sinking ship in my unarmed Asp, wondering how many jumps I had to be away to be safe (any Thargoid could have one-shotted that ship), then plotting a meandering course home having a look at the Orion nebula on the way.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Yes, I'm not sure what FD could have done differently. "Jump failed; nothing happened" perhaps. There wasn't time to code in anything new. I think they made a great job of using existing properties to make an exciting story at short notice.

Yes. What we didn't know before - though in hindsight could have guessed even before the Gnosis started preparing given the hints there were - is that the Cone Nebula is important to the Thargoids.

So there was (as implicitly suggested upthread) a third option: let the Gnosis jump into the Cone Nebula, have the explorers wander around for a bit and confirm that there's nothing special there, discard any future plot that was relying on it, have all the explorers "be happy", in a few months time it'll be as talked about as the time that the Gnosis later successfully jumped to a different then-unreachable nebula [1] and wasn't attacked by Thargoids now is.

Obviously letting any CG-sized group of players with a bit of publicity and hype have the ability to control where the plot goes - especially by trampling over bits they don't know exist yet - is a non-starter.

[1] It's so memorable I can't actually remember where they went. But I believe they had fun anyway.

 

[CMDR Harada]

When I play ED, I always feel that I'm being trolled by the devs, like they're a little bit vindictive and working against me in achieving my objectives. I'm sure some people love that, but over 9000 hrs, as I started to see more and more of it, it has worn me down to the point that I don't really play anymore.

THIS.. ^^^

It's been said that ED is the only game that actively works against it's players ( or hates them ). I've been playing since a few weeks after the initial release, and frankly, don't play much any more either. Seems like too much work to drag out the HOTAS and set it all up. I have no idea how many hours I have.. easily in excess of 3 or 4 thousand. Don't get me wrong, Elite is a great game. Thousands of hours played.. looking back I probably should been way more productive with that time ( What is that ? Like 2 years at 40 hours a week ? My god, I could have paid off the mortgage.. ).

But what used to draw me into the game, a sense of adventure, making my own way, seeing things no human has ever seen before ( in the game at least ), has dimmed. Now that I've done it all... what do I do ? Triple Elite, max ranks for Fed/Empire, billions of credits, fleet of ships... I've mined, explored, traded ( back in the old days, on the rares circuit ! ).

What is odd, is that the BEST things about the game have nothing to do with the game. Things like preserving the San Tu ( ? spelling ) system as an Anarchy.. or the 69 G. CARINAE thing, where lots of people helped preserve a single players home system. Or the times where explorers got stuck thousands of LYs into the black, only to have the Fuel Rats save them after literally hours of flying. Reading the forums for minute by minute updates was so very cool. Or even the whole Solame' ( Salome' ? ) mess. Things that players created, despite Fdev, it would seem. Things I became invested in. These are about the only things that stop me from un-installing. Something MIGHT happen, and I want to be involved, because those things were so absolutely cool.

So, what can they do to get the majority of players invested in SOMETHING.. something with TEETH, REAL consequences. I don't know, but small things that wouldn't break the game might be :

1: Make the Thargs a real threat. Do I care if a station in the Pleiades' burns ? No.. not really. Burn them all. Don't care. Burn Jameson Memorial ? Earth ? Achenar ? If Achenar falls, well, that represents half the Bank of Zaonce... and half your bank account. Plus any ships stored there. OK, now you got my attention. Make it a campaign of sorts. Multiple systems, multiple weeks. I can see FEDs helping out here, just to keep Earth from being next. I am sure threatening half of everyones credit balance would get attention.

2: If you're going that far, how about make the carriers kill-able ? Too many of them anyway... Now you can take revenge on a PG for being jerks. You and 10 buddies can smoke their carrier. Even just shooting it up to the tune of a few billion credit repair bill. Or NPC pirate carriers at the local Haz-RES or CNB. I understand the under-lying game mechanics that they're really mobile stations, and stations can't be damaged.. but, it would be a nice feature, and instancing issues or logging out wouldn't allow people to act with impunity ( at least if they had a carrier ). Or it could allow people to act like jerks and roving bands of gankers could start killing carriers in waves. Either way, I think it's a win if we have less of them plugging up the system maps. And it would encourage groups of players, more so than wings at any rate.

3: Real crime and punishment. Revoke system permits. If pirates can follow me system to system, why not a Fed task force ? Make it like a threat level 6 or 7, or a pirate assassination mission force, that follows you system to system once it's been triggered, so high waking wouldn't reset it. That might shoo away some of the gankers in Deciat.. the less skilled ones anyway. And the more experienced that could beat the task force would have their permits revoked for a few weeks. Not game breaking, but certainly more than what we have now. And it would establish more n00b friendly-ish zones in a dynamic way.

 

[Ettanin]

1: Make the Thargs a real threat. Do I care if a station in the Pleiades' burns ? No.. not really. Burn them all. Don't care. Burn Jameson Memorial ? Earth ? Achenar ? If Achenar falls, well, that represents half the Bank of Zaonce... and half your bank account. Plus any ships stored there. OK, now you got my attention. Make it a campaign of sorts. Multiple systems, multiple weeks. I can see FEDs helping out here, just to keep Earth from being next. I am sure threatening half of everyones credit balance would get attention.

Casual hostile by burning their already scarce time and it wouldn't even be their own fault. Not feasible.

2: If you're going that far, how about make the carriers kill-able ? Too many of them anyway... Now you can take revenge on a PG for being jerks. You and 10 buddies can smoke their carrier. Even just shooting it up to the tune of a few billion credit repair bill. Or NPC pirate carriers at the local Haz-RES or CNB. I understand the under-lying game mechanics that they're really mobile stations, and stations can't be damaged.. but, it would be a nice feature, and instancing issues or logging out wouldn't allow people to act with impunity ( at least if they had a carrier ). Or it could allow people to act like jerks and roving bands of gankers could start killing carriers in waves. Either way, I think it's a win if we have less of them plugging up the system maps. And it would encourage groups of players, more so than wings at any rate.

Forced PvP despite solo mode and due to the way instancing is set up the carrier owner cannot defend against the attacks. It screws up casuals who managed to put the effort in the carrier in the first place. Not feasible.

3: Real crime and punishment. Revoke system permits. If pirates can follow me system to system, why not a Fed task force ? Make it like a threat level 6 or 7, or a pirate assassination mission force, that follows you system to system once it's been triggered, so high waking wouldn't reset it. That might shoo away some of the gankers in Deciat.. the less skilled ones anyway. And the more experienced that could beat the task force would have their permits revoked for a few weeks. Not game breaking, but certainly more than what we have now. And it would establish more n00b friendly-ish zones in a dynamic way.

Griefers will always find a way around such deterrential systems and instead it hurts the casuals and innocent even more. Not feasible.

 

[d8veh]

There would’ve been a lot of unhappy players regardless of what Frontier did.

What does that tell you about the game? You won't hear statements like that with No Man's Sky, where the players tend to be very loyal to the devs, and vice versa.

 

[Brrokk]

Wht does that tell you about the game. You won't hear statements like that with No Man's Sky, where the players tend to be very loyal to the devs, which is reciprocated.

Well, what do you think FD should have done? Given Canonn's determination and the short notice I don't think there were many options...
1. What happened (a misjump because of thargoid attack).
2. Successful jump, letting thousands of players into a reserved space volume, trashing whatever storyline it was reserved for.
3. Failure to jump; no other effects.

I really can't think of any other possibilities. By the time it was clear Canonn were determined to go ahead there were only weeks left; no time to code anything.

As already said, most of us on board had a great time. I don't buy the "massacre of unsuspecting explorers" idea. What explorer gets on board the Gnosis without reading what Canonn and FD are saying about its itinerary? Who could have not been reasonably expecting a thargoid attack after all the talk of "a new kind of thargoid"?

 

[Darkfyre99]

What does that tell you about the game? You won't hear statements like that with No Man's Sky, where the players tend to be very loyal to the devs, and vice versa.

It tells me about the perils of game developers caving in to player requests for special privileges without thinking about the consequences first. Pretty much the whole sequence of events could’ve been avoided if Frontier had simply told Cannon Research “No. You can’t have control of a mega-ship of your own.”

 

[d8veh]

It tells me about the perils of game developers caving in to player requests for special privileges without thinking about the consequences first. Pretty much the whole sequence of events could’ve been avoided if Frontier had simply told Cannon Research “No. You can’t have control of a mega-ship of your own.”

Could've, should've, would've, but didn't!

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Pretty much the whole sequence of events could’ve been avoided if Frontier had simply told Cannon Research “No. You can’t have control of a mega-ship of your own.”

True, although the consequences of that would have been a bunch of Fleet Carriers floating around the Cone Nebula in July 2020 or March 2021 or however long it took for someone to actually notice the possibility. On the whole - whether for the right reasons or not - what we have is probably better.

(Certainly Frontier's current approach to letting players individually or collectively influence the story is quite a bit fairer and more sustainable, no argument there)

 

[d8veh]

Well, what do you think FD should have done? Given Canonn's determination and the short notice I don't think there were many options...
1. What happened (a misjump because of thargoid attack).
2. Successful jump, letting thousands of players into a reserved space volume, trashing whatever storyline it was reserved for.
3. Failure to jump; no other effects.

I really can't think of any other possibilities. By the time it was clear Canonn were determined to go ahead there were only weeks left; no time to code anything.

As already said, most of us on board had a great time. I don't buy the "massacre of unsuspecting explorers" idea. What explorer gets on board the Gnosis without reading what Canonn and FD are saying about its itinerary? Who could have not been reasonably expecting a thargoid attack after all the talk of "a new kind of thargoid"?

Whatever they should've, could've or would've done is completely irrelevent. The event happened. People did what they did. Some enjoyed it. Most didn't. Whatever we think about it, for most players it was an unmitigated disastert. Thousands of disappointed and unhappy players are never going to be good for the game overall. You guys don't seem to be getting that point even though I've spelled it out to you several times.

If you look at the Steam charts, you can see a significant build up of players before the jump, and a significant dip immediately after it.

 

[Brrokk]

Whatever they should've, could've or would've done is completely irrelevent. The event happened. People did what they did. Some enjoyed it. Most didn't. Whatever we think about it, for most players it was an unmitigated disastert. Thousands of disappointed and unhappy players are never going to be good for the game overall. You guys don't seem to be getting that point even though I've spelled it out to you several times.

My impression is different. Most of us who were on the Gnosis enjoyed it. The salt is from people who weren't paying attention, now misrepresent what happened to justify terms like "Gnosis debacle" and still don't know what they think should have happened instead.

"A new kind of Thargoid" really couldn't have been any bigger clue!

 

[Ian Doncaster]

you guys don't seem to be getting that point

As I mentioned above, Frontier absolutely have got that point on multiple occasions - high-hype events are not worth the risk, that's why there haven't been any supported by Frontier since the Gnosis/DW2 and haven't been any initiated by Frontier since Salome. (EDIT: well, unless you count the Odyssey release; the prosecution rests, m'lud)

A bit of a disappointment to some of the other posters in the thread asking for more of that sort of thing, but nothing ventured nothing lost, as they say.

 

[varonica]

As I mentioned above, Frontier absolutely have got that point on multiple occasions - high-hype events are not worth the risk, that's why there haven't been any supported by Frontier since the Gnosis/DW2 and haven't been any initiated by Frontier since Salome. (EDIT: well, unless you count the Odyssey release; the prosecution rests, m'lud)

A bit of a disappointment to some of the other posters in the thread asking for more of that sort of thing, but nothing ventured nothing lost, as they say.

Yeah "give us big events" the players demand, big event happens and goes exactly as frontier planned and said it would in advance, "wahh that was rubbish, you suck frontier," big events no longer happen, I wonder why?

 

[Maolagin]

Yeah "give us big events" the players demand, big event happens and goes exactly as frontier planned and said it would in advance, "wahh that was rubbish, you suck frontier," big events no longer happen, I wonder why?

Or rather, big events continue to happen, but FDev unfolds them over weeks and months, doesn't involve player groups, doesn't go out of its way to publicize them, and generally avoids anything that could accidentally build hype. And as it turns out, players seem to generally have fun in gradually increasing numbers with relatively minimal salt. I think it's safe to say the company has learned something there, even if it's not what the OP might hope.