PLEASE MAKE POWERPLAY IN "OPEN ONLY"

I’ve said it plenty of times before, Powerplay has potential to really be something great, instead of some watered down, generic BGS system.
Unfortunately FD chose to make it a bland PvE grindfest, and making it open only, while presenting more opportunties for PvP it will still be a bland PvE grindfest.

Open only or not open only, PP needs a lot of changes to make it more interesting and engaging for participants.

The main mechanic behind PP is hauling from A to B, over and over and over again. Not too many players are keen to do that i think. For some, playing in open adds some spice, the possibility to be attacked by other players. Those people are already in open. For others, the possibility to be attacked by other players just adds more tedium. "Ok, look, someone is trying to gank me... and all i want to do is go from A to B", those people are likely doing PP in PG/solo.

What will likely change if it goes open only?

Most of those who haul from PG/solo will quit playing. There will be more combat people pledging because they think PP is now better. Remaining haulers will face more opposition. For some, that might be too much.

Result? I suspect the death of PP and the combat players coming to the forusm to complain their powers are collapsing and nobody is hauling and that FD should do something to fix it.

In short, without sweeping changes to PP to make it more interesting, then open only isn't going to be a positive thing, its going to be a negative thing. With those sweeping changes, then open only might not be needed.... it would of course depend on the changes made.

Why are people not clamouring for PP missions? I'm sure some remember they were mentioned in the early days of PP. And then Sandro suggested they might happen as part of his proposals. PP missions have the potential to add some variety to the feature.
 
If you say so. At least I actually set out my thinking and back it up. All I get from you is....nothing.
I have explained it quite clearly and succinctly, I am sorry but your reasoning is the usual PvPer tripe I have come to expect from certain quarters of these forums - totally fallacious. :rolleyes:

The simple fact is that despite your protestations to the contrary PP does provide unique gameplay that is NOT replicated in any shape or form with any combination of Squadrons and the BGS. Squadrons do not replicate the game play that PP provides nor is the fundamental mechanics of PP the same as the BGS.
 
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I have explained it quite clearly and succinctly, I am sorry but your reasoning is the usual PvPer tripe I have come to expect from certain quarters of these forums - totally fallacious. :rolleyes:

The simple fact is that despite your protestations to the contrary PP does provide unique gameplay that is NOT replicated in any shape or form with any combination of Squadrons and the BGS.
Just admit it already, you just don't like PvP and the people going for it, and that's the only reason you are posting in this thread.
So far I have never seen you make any statement that supports PvP, or help improve the whole thing (If I'm wrong, point me to the thread where you support PvP)
I'm gonna take a guess and I might even be right, you don't even take part in PP other than module shopping and you are arguing here just for the sake of it hoping that "the bad PvPers lose one of their motivations and leave the game".
 
While dismissing the opinion of those who would see it as a loss of choice.

I mean, bring whatever arguments to the table you like, but if someone says "I will be losing the choice to play PP in PG/solo should it go open only", its not exactly something you can provide any argument against. Its not even an opinion, it would be a fact.
I back it up by saying that the gameplay you are losing is duplicated all over, so you are not really losing anything at all.
 
............and this is being done; each and every day. Under the current conditions.
And that is part of the problem, since these activities cannot be challenged in any way other than doing it faster than your opposition. You can't use skill, you can't disrupt, you can't do very much. It forces everyone to use the same method, which reinforces Powerplays flat gameplay.
 
For some.

For others, never is better than might.

And for yet a third group, might is only better than never if might is pretty darn close to never.
Its still better than zero, and it makes you think about your ship in more terms than cargo capacity or how long you can go in a combat expansion.

I’ve often compared PvP to spicy food. Some people prefer their food not hot at all. Others like creating bonfires in their mouths. Some like just a mild kick to their meals, while others cycle between testing their endurance, and then swearing “never again.” And, of course, there’s the jerks that think it’s amusing to unscrew the lid if the spice jar, so the next person to use it will ruin their meal.

The trick to running a successful restaurant isn’t forcing players to choose, for all time, between the ”ring of fire” spicy menu or the ”taste o’ cardboard” menu. The trick is to offer a wide variety of meals, appetizers, entrees, drinks, and deserts, while keeping the jerks out of the kitchen.
If then, in an Open context your exposure to hostile players is variable, that answers this question? Players don't have to run through hell-holes if they don't want to; Power discords will have options for all levels of skill, its in a Powers interests to nurture and protect players from overwhelming odds either through direct protection, wings, training.

p.s. You’ve been asking what Powerplay has that the BGS doesn’t, given that the day-to-day activities of the BGS is far superior, variety wise, compared to Powerplay. While I’m sure others feel differently, for me what makes Powerplay more appealing is that there are strategic and logistical considerations to take into account. Unlike BGS territorial play, where size is limited solely by hours played, there are a lot more things to consider: Superpower affiliation, government type, population size, CC revenue, and CC cost. This makes the decisions I make on a daily, weekly, and monthly basis a lot more interesting.
I thought you gave up direct Powerplay and now tended its BGS instead?

Day to day logistics are really the same: what pad types are there / distance from star / distance from capital in jumps. These are almost interchangeable.

The rest are really down to scouring a map for the biggest green spots with no overlaps, compared to retreating a faction inside a set radius so you can expand into it instead.

Then it comes down to BGS manipulation to keep favourable gov types.
 
If they don’t make it open only then they need to scrap it. Right now all it does is have negative effects on the bgs. There is nothing involved that could actually be considered gameplay.
 
I have explained it quite clearly and succinctly, I am sorry but your reasoning is the usual PvPer tripe I have come to expect from certain quarters of these forums - totally fallacious. :rolleyes:

The simple fact is that despite your protestations to the contrary PP does provide unique gameplay that is NOT replicated in any shape or form with any combination of Squadrons and the BGS. Squadrons do not replicate the game play that PP provides nor is the fundamental mechanics of PP the same as the BGS.
But you don't actually articulate on any level what this gameplay is. Just saying 'its Powerplay, dur / eyroll emojii etc' is not enough. What are you doing that is different and so precious you fear losing it? Plus, do you even play the feature?

If I've missed a post where you outline it please direct me to it and I'll reappraise what I've said.

But lets recap:

Powerplay / BGS

Prepare: find a +ve CC system. Work out what is best using Discord groups or check Squadron messages. Open ended cargo runs to this system. At a base level this is like an open ended hauling mission that you have to fund. The BGS you expand into a system within 30Ly that fits certain criteria. So here is the most different, however the BGS has no 5C and no time constraint.

Expand: Fight or haul more than your opposition. This again is either open ended hauling or old style endless CZs.

Fortify: Finite cargo runs akin to wing cargo missions in size x number of systems you hold.

UM: go to a control system of your choosing and murder rival ships, much like murdering in the BGS except you have a bar chart to show your progress (er...hang on.....the BGS has that too now).

Powers: 11 Tier 1 Powers with 1 2D picture with lore. Player factions have 3D avatars in the station that change depending on mood or your standing. These factions also have lore, often much more.

Day to day BGS faction work involves the entire game in one way or another.

Squadrons: https://elite-dangerous.fandom.com/wiki/Squadrons

So, is Powerplay unique enough on its own? If it went Open only what exactly would you 'lose' exactly in pure gaming, lore, abilities etc bearing in mind its in this context:

 
Check out posts:

#5 (and posts within that), #71, #74, #118, #124, #130, #200, #303, #306, #310, and a lot inbetween.
All those post you worshipping Open mode power play each post. And you are ignoring Our views. Bravo and bringing up Sandro posts. You could not bring up those quotes. Also when the Mod brings up Sandro real quotes. All Sandro was asking was what do you think Power play open. People already answered that one. I guess you ignored that one.
Maybe the volunteer moderators have made Rubbernuke's posts invisible to you? No can't be.
Well when get tired of listing to a broken record you turn off the record. Maybe break it Because they are unwilling to listen and ignoring other players views. Just like the Op, Rubbernuke and you.

For me. I am looking at people with bad connections like me that want to do power play but playing in the open. PvP players think I teleport because of slow connection. I also look at the older (50 to 70-year-old) players who play power play who don't want to play open. But like the Op, Rubbernuke and Lex Fernetti. They tend to Ignore our views.
 
All those post you worshipping Open mode power play each post. And you are ignoring Our views. Bravo and bringing up Sandro posts. You could not bring up those quotes. Also when the Mod brings up Sandro real quotes. All Sandro was asking was what do you think Power play open. People already answered that one. I guess you ignored that one.
Well when get tired of listing to a broken record you turn off the record. Maybe break it Because they are unwilling to listen and ignoring other players views. Just like the Op, Rubbernuke and you.
This is what I said (and what you responded to)

If you say so. At least I actually set out my thinking and back it up. All I get from you is....nothing.

'All those post you worshipping Open mode power play each post.'

All those posts I list in detail set out my thinking as to why I feel from my own experiences Open would be a good move. I give reasons and not use emotion to justify a position.

People already answered that one. I guess you ignored that one.
They did. I went through both threads and counted up the responses. Open only had over 65% approval (going up to 75% if you count the 'yes but do this....' posts.

For me. I am looking at people with bad connections like me that want to do power play but playing in the open. PvP players think I teleport because of slow connection. I also look at the older (50 to 70-year-old) players who play power play who don't want to play open. But like the Op, Rubbernuke and Lex Fernetti. They tend to Ignore our views.
No one is ignoring you, its called a debate where one side argues against another.
 
By looking at this topic Powerplay Proposal while Rubbernuke ignored them just look for yes or no he did not look at the whole picture for problem While I did not look at the Console players I think it is one of many reasons why Power Play open will never work. I think Obsidian Ant. Hit it best With this quote.
What about Open Only for console players? They have to pay Microsoft or Sony a subscription fee to access Open Mode, meaning they would have to Pay to Powerplay.
Open Power Play Fail.

Or another quote from a few others.
Sadly, it will never work. Some quick firewall tweaking, and you effectively play Solo while in Open.

Also, it would lock Powerplay for any console player who doesn't have online subscription (Solo is the only mode available in that case).
I'm not a console player and I never play in Solo, but to lock console players without subscription out of Powerplay is a no-go. No game should ever gate players out. Even if it's "only" Powerplay. If anything like this is implemented, it should be accessible to all players and it should also not lock any Powerplay Modules. Please consider this, before making your final decision.
So are we going to have Frontier pay for players who are on Console that want to play powerplay? It could be many of the reason why it never been pushed beyond that post. So Rubbernuke Instead of posting yes no fake poll you are telling us. I rather look at real issues.
 
By looking at this topic Powerplay Proposal while Rubbernuke ignored them just look for yes or no he did not look at the whole picture for problem While I did not look at the Console players I think it is one of many reasons why Power Play open will never work. I think Obsidian Ant. Hit it best With this quote. Open Power Play Fail.
'Look at the whole picture'.

I was a leader of a Power, ran a Powers Reddit for years, did huge amounts of diplomatic stuff in Powerplay, has been involved with Powerplay from Cycle 1, and was involved with the devs in the Powerplay Dev Discord. I have a fair idea what the 'whole picture' is. Has Obsidian Ant done any of that in his Asp?

His quote you prize so highly (Hit it best With this quote. Open Power Play Fail.) is just empty words.

I've seen how through obfuscation, neglect, ignorance and plain stupidity Powerplay has slowly sunk into the state it is now. It needs to change, but, unless Adam comes on and says a major rework is on the cards, all we have is whats on the proposal. That proposal is all that can be done- i.e. maths, formula tweaks, mode changes. Anyone who suggests drastic reworkings with flashy new features is not paying attention to the reality Powerplay finds itself in, and the budget FD are willing to pay to fix it.

I won't hide that there would be difficulties repositioning Powerplay, but frankly what are you losing? Its not like ships are gated behind Powerplay, or anything else. Modules would be moved to brokers, so nothing is missing. Who you fight, where you fight, how you fight are the same in Powerplay and the BGS. Hell, you can still join Powerplay squadrons and help.

As I've pointed out the BGS is now much better at doing what Powerplay was supposed to do, leading to the conclusion you are not missing much if / when it goes Open Only. And yes, I'm a bad man for saying console owners might have to stump up for PS +. Its not like you don't get free stuff thrown at you with it or anything. And to cap it all off, the people I see on discord all have PS + too...

Without the Open Only clause the rest of the proposal keeps Powerplay in the same catatonic state. Powers will shed all the cruft, be flush with CC and then what? There is nowhere left to expand to. And because you have huge CC reserves its impossible to turmoil.

But what about attacking? You have undermining on systems that has no end with the new proposal, so rather than having a cap on forting you chase the bar chart even more (grind +) on both sides in all 3 modes against enemies you will never see. This does not even take into account AFK bots in PG, which will become prevalent even more.

Even in the most apocalyptic Open Powerplay outcome (massive drop in fortification) it re-balances Powerplay automatically. The bubble would have space again, and we won't have the situation we have now of pure trench warfare fighting over scraps and BGS gardening. Powers sizes would be self regulating for once, and defending much more difficult.

And on top of that you get the full potential of wings, Squadrons and massive co-ordination enriching it all. But what about P2P? Its come on leaps and bounds:


It never will be perfect, but it would shift the paradigm of Powerplay beyond the normal three modes inclusive BGS that comprehensively outshines it.

So Rubbernuke Instead of posting yes no fake poll you are telling us. I rather look at real issues.
So Rubbernuke Instead of posting yes no fake poll you are telling us

If you think its so fake, go count them up yourself. And while you are at it, check out your god Obsidian Ants Powerplay poll he did. But, of course the results are all fake news and in my head, and ask what % of those 65% in favour have PS +.

Plus, what abiout CQC? Does that need PS +?
 
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By looking at this topic Powerplay Proposal while Rubbernuke ignored them just look for yes or no he did not look at the whole picture for problem While I did not look at the Console players I think it is one of many reasons why Power Play open will never work. I think Obsidian Ant. Hit it best With this quote. Open Power Play Fail.

Or another quote from a few others.

So are we going to have Frontier pay for players who are on Console that want to play powerplay? It could be many of the reason why it never been pushed beyond that post. So Rubbernuke Instead of posting yes no fake poll you are telling us. I rather look at real issues.

Uhmm, you already have to pay to use open or PG in the first place, lol...
 
Its still better than zero, and it makes you think about your ship in more terms than cargo capacity or how long you can go in a combat expansion.
Not for the players who have zero interest in PvP. It isn't about cargo capacity or combat zone duration for them. It's that they either don't want to play with people, don't enjoy PvP, or consider PvP in this game, especially post-engineers, as an utterly unenjoyable waste of their time.

If then, in an Open context your exposure to hostile players is variable, that answers this question? Players don't have to run through hell-holes if they don't want to; Power discords will have options for all levels of skill, its in a Powers interests to nurture and protect players from overwhelming odds either through direct protection, wings, training.
I primarily play in Open, and furthermore I played Powerplay in Open, hauling fortification merits, for four months when it first started... and this was during a time when I played during my local Prime Time, which maximized my chances of being opposed by another Power's players. I was opposed twice during all that time, and both times they were skilled enough that I actually needed the shields and armor I had installed. Furthermore, and much more importantly IMO, I had fun in the process.

Unpledged players were a much greater threat to my runs for two of those months, before they mysteriously vanished for some unknown* reason. By about twenty to one, IIRC (I lost count after a while). They weren't an actual threat to me, mostly they required a few extra seconds to alter my flight path slightly to ensure my braking maneuver would minimize my window of vulnerability, but towards the end they were certainly starting to get tedious.

But here's the thing, IMO. All the stuff you mention above gives me zero incentive to directly participate in PvP in regards to Powerplay, above and beyond playing in Open and evading the occasional attempt to make an interdiction attempt. Especially post-engineers, where I could potentially spend an entire play session, and never crack the opposing side's shields, nor have my shields cracked in turn... assuming I'm running a PvP metaship, of course. That is time that would be far better spent hauling merits or spending time combat farming.

And if I'm hauling merits or combat farming, I'm not running a PvP metaship, and there is zero incentive to risk hundreds, or even thousands, or merits, in PvP combat with a reward of one merit.

This is why I consider the whole "Powerplay is all about the PvP" to be, at best, revisionist thinking. It's the only "PvP game" I know where the winning move is not to engage in PvP. PvP Powerplayers participate in PvP for the same reason I play in Open: it's far more fun to play inefficiently than the alternative.

I thought you gave up direct Powerplay and now tended its BGS instead?

Day to day logistics are really the same: what pad types are there / distance from star / distance from capital in jumps. These are almost interchangeable.

The rest are really down to scouring a map for the biggest green spots with no overlaps, compared to retreating a faction inside a set radius so you can expand into it instead.

Then it comes down to BGS manipulation to keep favourable gov types.
It's not by choice. If I want to directly participate in Powerplay, my choices are three-fold:

1) Spend my precious playtime combat farming. I don't enjoy combat in general, though it is tolerable in small doses. There's a reason that despite having played since Alpha, my combat ranking is only novice. The thought of spending an entire play session doing nothing but combat is utterly unappealing to me.

2) Spend my precious playtime aggravating my tendinitis by going through the fast-tracking of fortification commodities time and time and time again, until my hold is full, mostly at the tier three level because I don't play this game enough on a weekly basis to easily maintain tier four, and then make an ABA cargo run... and my tolerance for ABA cargo runs is around six runs before it starts becoming uninteresting. After that, the route becomes familiar enough that it starts becoming tedious.

3) Automate parts of #2: No. Just no. I play this game to play this game, not watch my computer play it for me.

Is it any wonder I gravitated towards the BGS side of things? Frontier has managed take a feature with the most interesting gameplay, and gate it behind some of the worst in-game activities I've seen. (Only pre-Beyond mining and exploration was worse, IMO.)

That is why I found Sandro's proposal to add Powerplay missions to be appealing, even if it would be mostly decoupled from the BGS except in control systems. It has the potential to make my game much more interesting than the current status quo, especially if there are other mission runners in the same system... assuming that the game does not go Open Only. Opportunistic direct PvP between similarly equipped ships, between players who are in Open by choice, is much more appealing than the current status quo of PvP-metaship vs cargo hauler, or the inevitable cheats and combat loggers that Open Only would bring to the table.

__
* Very likely, because most of the haulers, whose level of comfort with that particular kind of "PvP" was lower than mine, had already left for solo/PGs. That left players like me hauling merits in Open, who are utterly unappealing to those kinds of players. We're extremely difficult to kill in the first place, and we don't get salty in the unlikely event we get killed anyways. We're not the "content" they're looking for. ;)
 
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I primarily play in Open, and furthermore I played Powerplay in Open, hauling fortification merits, for four months when it first started... and this was during a time when I played during my local Prime Time, which maximized my chances of being opposed by another Power's players. I was opposed twice during all that time, and both times they were skilled enough that I actually needed the shields and armor I had installed.
Sandros suggested changes condense activity down considerably (by a factor of 15 or more) and make everything inbound. It takes the sprawl and makes it almost multi arena like.

Unpledged players were a much greater threat to my runs for two of those months, before they mysteriously vanished for some unknown* reason. By about twenty to one, IIRC (I lost count after a while). They weren't an actual threat to me, mostly they required a few extra seconds to alter my flight path slightly to ensure my braking maneuver would minimize my window of vulnerability, but towards the end they were certainly starting to get tedious.
Interference from non-pledges might also come from the often neglected 'freedom fighters' though in Open PP- you get that for free here. Plus, engineers now have toys that make life a bit more difficult for haulers.

But here's the thing, IMO. All the stuff you mention above gives me zero incentive to directly participate in PvP in regards to Powerplay, above and beyond playing in Open and evading the occasional attempt to make an interdiction attempt. Especially post-engineers, where I could potentially spend an entire play session, and never crack the opposing side's shields, nor have my shields cracked in turn... assuming I'm running a PvP metaship, of course. That is time that would be far better spent hauling merits or spending time combat farming.

And if I'm hauling merits or combat farming, I'm not running a PvP metaship, and there is zero incentive to risk hundreds, or even thousands, or merits, in PvP combat with a reward of one merit.

This is why I consider the whole "Powerplay is all about the PvP" to be, at best, revisionist thinking. It's the only "PvP game" I know where the winning move is not to engage in PvP. PvP Powerplayers participate in PvP for the same reason I play in Open: it's far more fun to play inefficiently than the alternative.
Its not about straight up killing though. Its disrupting your enemy and minimising the same disruption to you so those who are collecting and moving can do so. Its also self organising, in that activity zones become hot organically as more and more gather together (as seen in that massive wing fight video- that was spontaneous).

As I mentioned earlier too, we have new weapons like reverb torps / mines, ion mines, drag munitions, phasing. With teams working for and against you its a whole new way of approaching Powerplay beyond plain hauling and shooting.

In your example, pledges would protect you, because they have to. Combat expansions have overwatch, as well as others picking off wounded ships.

And this:

it's far more fun to play inefficiently than the alternative

Is exactly why Open is needed- Open breaks the 100% reliability of Powerplay solo / PG activities. It introduces disruption into a system that has become static and that NPCs cannot help with.

It's not by choice. If I want to directly participate in Powerplay, my choices are three-fold:

1) Spend my precious playtime combat farming. I don't enjoy combat in general, though it is tolerable in small doses. There's a reason that despite having played since Alpha, my combat ranking is only novice. The thought of spending an entire play session doing nothing but combat is utterly unappealing to me.
Fair enough you dislike combat- but, Powerplay regardless of mode at minimum depending on Power is 1/3 combat.

2) Spend my precious playtime aggravating my tendinitis by going through the fast-tracking of fortification commodities time and time and time again, until my hold is full, mostly at the tier three level because I don't play this game enough on a weekly basis to easily maintain tier four, and then make an ABA cargo run... and my tolerance for ABA cargo runs is around six runs before it starts becoming uninteresting. After that, the route becomes familiar enough that it starts becoming tedious.
Its tedious because its mundane with nothing happening. This is why a lot of people including myself want interaction with players here to influence this.

3) Automate parts of #2: No. Just no. I play this game to play this game, not watch my computer play it for me.
And thats great to hear :D

Is it any wonder I gravitated towards the BGS side of things? Frontier has managed take a feature with the most interesting gameplay, and gate it behind some of the worst in-game activities I've seen. (Only pre-Beyond mining and exploration was worse, IMO.)
I agree with you, but for different reasons. Powerplays 'gameplay' is horrific, but I stuck with it all these years for the players and interactions between them in and out of game. I dearly want FD to come in and say a three modes wonderland is coming but sadly its not. The options are few and (IMO at least) Open has the most future potential.

That is why I found Sandro's proposal to add Powerplay missions to be appealing, even if it would be mostly decoupled from the BGS except in control systems.
Again I agree. Anything beyond the 3 activities shoot / haul / shoot + is a win in my book. If only FD would bring in the new BGS mechanics and missions.
 
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