Honestly I'm not so into PvP to say that something like that could work or not, I just know that it wouldn't do in Powerplay because we had examples in the past, and player interactions are often exploitable (and exploited). But it could be a good base as an idea for something different, maybe a way to improve CQC (which could be the natural environment for that, with a lot of improvements of course).
PLEASE MAKE POWERPLAY IN "OPEN ONLY"
- Thread starter CMDR KOBAL
- Start date
Honestly I'm not so into PvP to say that something like that could work or not, I just know that it wouldn't do in Powerplay because we had examples in the past, and player interactions are often exploitable (and exploited). But it could be a good base as an idea for something different, maybe a way to improve CQC (which could be the natural environment for that, with a lot of improvements of course).
....because you and your player groups: Only play in open.I will answer you with this: in the first iteration of Powerplay (I wasn't there, but it was told me) the only way to undermine was to steal commodities to other ships, either humans or NPCs. You know what happened? People begun to simply pledge to an enemy powe and give commodities to their friends.
Another thing: you keep talking about some sort of "pvp only" activity: honestly that's not what most of Powerplayers want, and a PvP-only activity would be very easy to exploit because, at the actal state of the art, money is so easy to do that many people will simply make themselves blow up to help their real Power.
So, and this is my opinion, the only way to have a good game is to diversify the pve activities in powerplay with the constant menace of a pvp encounter, making cooperation a necessity to complete pve tasks that in the end will count as the effectiveness of the group. This concept is what most powerplayers root for since ages, as a veteran powerplayer I think I've got a little bit more of experience about that and about what the actual issues of Powerplay are.
But please, you can go on talking about Powerplay even if you have no experience about it, honestly I'm kinda tired of that, I would love to discuss about game mechanics (I opened many threads about Powerplay), but people usually want just to talk about how the "mode equality" was promised during a kickstarter campaign 5 years ago, and that is not something that I find interesting honestly.
As Powerplayers we do.
Oh god, is this the point where you start trying to look smart talking about freedom of playing thee way you want? Ok, let's try this. I want the money from mining without mining. Do I sound stupid to you? Of course I do. You can IGNORE other parts of the game if they do not suit you. Don't try to run away from that. I understand that this is the central point that you (and others) can't accept. You can accept the existence of CQC, right? Well, you can accept the existence of Open Only Powerplay too (or Powerplay Mode Only Powerplay if you want to keep Open Play even more deserted if you like). That's how grown-ups deal with things, they don't deny things to others because they do not like that.
That's what fanatics do. Do you want to look as a fanatic? For a videogame?
We're starting to go in circles here. Opponents of OOPP state that it's wrong to remove content from people. I get that. They say that people should have content to play the game like they want. But OOPP proponents are just saying they want content to play the game like they want.
Why is everyone else's right to have the content their way legit when players who desire a strategic pvp experience not legit?
I'll concede that just flipping a switch to OOPP is not a solution considerate of all parties. But that just means there needs to be some redefining of what PP is and how it works. I have to believe a compromising solution is possible if people will attempt to have open minds.
That's what they usually do. Welcome to the Elite Dangerous forums, new blood. ^_^'
Well the key argument for Open Only PP is essentially to facilitate what some refer to as "meaningful PvP". The overall concept (c/f my counter proposal) has been adopted in other MMOs with quite some success (GW2 WvW, ESO Alliance Battles).
The most complained about problem with CQC is that it is too constraining on ship types - but that could be addressed as part of the proposal.
Honestly, I'm just trying to ascertain if it is even remotely possible that some sort of baseline general statements could be made about a change that the majority of people could agree with. So that there would be some place to work from to find compromise.
See my squadron centric counter proposal for something similar to what is being asked for that would be hard to argue against.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Demanding PvP-gated content in a game where PvP is an entirely optional play-style has led to many circular arguments over the years.
Players supporting the status quo are accepting of how Frontier implemented the feature. Players demanding that Powerplay be PvP-gated to Open are seeking to change the status quo for an existing (nearly three year old) feature to suit their optional play-style - a play-style that Frontier would seem to be "well aware" is not shared by the majority of players.
In the discussion around "is PvP optional, or not" there is no compromise position - it's either optional or it's not.
.... and we all bought a game with optional PvP, including in Powerplay.
I totally second the ship restriction in CQC part. But we risk to go OT too much talking about that.
I'll just say that I would love to see a CQC with rooms, with the posibility to chose the ships accepted to such room, the level of engineering etc. The actual CQC is quite fun, but it's not enough, clearly it is not.But, let's get back to Powerplay: I've shared many real experiences of Open Powerplay action, and the fact that we needed to complete PvE tasks to succeed made us cooperate in many exciting ways, and our opposers had to be very "creative" to slow us down. I think that a "too much pvp oriented" powerplay (as the one you suggested) would make it too straighforward, with the metas all pvpers know, the consequential problems about that etc. I think that the best Powerplay experience would be a PvE oriented game with constant PvP possibility, we could see a great variability in outfittings, like very fast ships to avoid conflict, or great ships with escorts to maximize the efforts for a Power. There's a lot of potential in this gamestyle, in my opinion, too bad FDev seems not interested at all to even improve the actual Powerplay, which suffers more important problems than it being played in Open or not.
I feel OOPP could potentially breathe a little more life into Powerplay beyond hauling cargo and barely getting paid for it, or people like me who just use it to get cool parts.
Not gonna lie, I’m quite proud of my mining lances.
To see more people pick up Powerplay, and actually participate (beyond getting 750 merits three weeks and a few days in, before defecting) could prove interesting.
I’ve got a sturdy T9 that would be fun to troll enemies with once in awhile.
As for CQC, unless it lets us import main-game ships, it’ll never hold a candle to engagements and variety found in open play.
Still kinda fun in its own right, though.
Not gonna lie, I’m quite proud of my mining lances.
To see more people pick up Powerplay, and actually participate (beyond getting 750 merits three weeks and a few days in, before defecting) could prove interesting.
I’ve got a sturdy T9 that would be fun to troll enemies with once in awhile.
As for CQC, unless it lets us import main-game ships, it’ll never hold a candle to engagements and variety found in open play.
Still kinda fun in its own right, though.
I just wish there could be some solid proposals presented for what a change would look like and then the entire player comminity could cast their vote. It'd be so nice to tangibly see what the majority of the player base really wants.
But I'm just wishing.
Well... the actual proposals are
- Powerplay missions
- Open Only or a dedicated mode to play Powerplay
- new rules to make possible to drop specific systems to enemy Powers
- new rules to make every conquest always good (because right now the great mess which is Powerplay is endangered mostly by players pledged to a power just to destroy it from within).
), we're basically waiting for FDev to give us a sign.Like: "waiting for godot" wait. Patiently. Like tibetan monks.
Off topic, but now I’m thinking about it.
Engineering for Mining Lances when?
Imagine it, mining a rock at a whole four kilometers away.
Useless? Sure. Awesome? DEFINITELY.
Engineering for Mining Lances when?
Imagine it, mining a rock at a whole four kilometers away.
Useless? Sure. Awesome? DEFINITELY.
You want that, you can have that now - just not at the expense of other players nor forcing that gameplay on other players, making PP Open Only is not the only way to skin the meaningful PvP cat.
My counter proposal could be considered the starting point for something akin to Open Only PP without removing the current PvE-centric PP (with PvP risk entirely optional) options.
Personally, I disagree that "constant PvP possibility" is a positive thing but you get that in Open as it currently stands.
Oh it's not about wanting something or not for me: it's about fair competition between Powers. But again: I understand what you want to propose on the PvP side, it simply doesn't suit a "war for territory" scenario as Powerplay is, especially a decentralized one as FDev clearly want for Powerplay to be. But again, as the OP said we're starting going to circles. I think that the game is big enough to make many playstyles fit in it, and it would be interesting to have a "Open Only-ish competitive" mode. My personal choice would be to have two different galaxies, one Open Only and another one "hybrid" as this is, with different CMDRs, but that's really something impossible to wish for.
What is missing is significantly tougher opposition from NPCs in PowerPlay, tough enough to ensure your active involvement.
This however requires different rules, as currently NPC opposition is quite weak because we do not want to be bothered when not engaged with PP. We can visit Engineers in enemy territory, buy ships from enemy shipyards, visit Sol. To keep that, the game would need to differentiate between being pledged to a power, and earning merits for the power.
This however requires different rules, as currently NPC opposition is quite weak because we do not want to be bothered when not engaged with PP. We can visit Engineers in enemy territory, buy ships from enemy shipyards, visit Sol. To keep that, the game would need to differentiate between being pledged to a power, and earning merits for the power.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Arguably that happened a year ago when Sandro posted the first Powerplay Flash Topic. No voting as such - just feedback in the thread.
Probably not the game in general, but in my experience it would drive far more players away from Powerplay than it would attract new players who would stick with it. PvP/PvE hybrids like Elite Dangerous in general, and Powerplay in particular, tend to hemorrhage players, due to a tiny minority acting like jerks, unless the game advertises that acting like a jerk is a headline feature. Most games avoid the issue entirely by hard coding a wall between PvPers and everyone else, and those that don’t eventually go that route as well, or shut down their servers.
Elite Dangerous constantly surprises me that a significant majority of players play in Open, for one reason or another. I attribute this to a rather novel approach to the problem: letting players, on a session by session basis, choose who they want to be instanced with. This leaves those who enjoy acting like jerks in games without their audience. Everyone wins. PvPers win, since there will be a larger cohort willing to be shot at, and perhaps consider shooting back. PvEers win, because they don’t have to worry about being attacked by other players. Those who fall between those two extremes win, because they’re not forced to choose betweeen all PvP, and all PvE. And the jerks...
well...
I guess I was wrong about everyone winning.
The problem with Powerplay isn’t the modes. It’s systemic. The voting and preparation rules favor fifth column activity, the fortification/undermining rules makes fortification easy, module shopping encourages Power hopping, and the lack of variety in earning Merits discourages widespread participation.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Nothing so organised....Damn, why do I imagine Arry, Agony_Aunt and Robert Maynard as some sort of "ALL MODES ARE EQUALS!1!!1!!1" Justice League, waiting in their lair for this kind of threads to be opened by the random new guy asking for something that apparently seem to be logical to new guys too?
.... just some players who don't seem to accept that any player has the right to demand that existing pan-modal content is retrospectively gated to their particular play-style.
There is, as yet, no "fact that Powerplay should become something for Open Players" - merely a proposal that might, possibly, be implemented if changes to Powerplay go ahead.
.... and the opinions of the supporters of OOPP, of course.
Being a "functional adult" I can accept that Frontier have implemented the game with absolutely no requirement for PvP with regard to engaging in any game feature and that every player bought the game on that basis.
It'd be great if other players would do the same....
The "same old arguments" are just as relevant now as they were when first made. The discussion around the three game modes / single shared galaxy state (i.e. PvP is an optional extra and not required) has been running since some of the first backers realised that players could affect the game without playing with them - that's well over six years now.
Have there been any truly new arguments in support of Open only anything in the last few years?