Fear. And Change. And Theorising. Same as everSuperb! Someone see's the light!
So what this entire thread about then ?
Please reconsider fleet carriers for solo players.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Rampant speculation and theory crafting....So what this entire thread about then ?
I think the issues is that people would spend potentially billions on a fleet carrier only to find that it is useless for a lone wolf player, it would create such an outrage. Best to keep it behind a squadron size wall. Yeah people can go and buy other accounts or make new accounts on their consoles, but it would still be possibly useless for the lone wolf player. All depends on implementation. If it takes days or weeks for a single commander to refuel one of these things and they can only carry a single ship, it becomes useless.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Does it? If all of the player's altCMDRs are on the Carrier with a ship each?
.... bearing in mind that console altCMDRs are free (and PC altCMDRs only cost as much as the price of the game in the next sale....).
I have the feeling that it will create an outrage no matter how fleet carriers are implemented in the end.
- if it's available for everybody some people will be angry that fleet carriers are not the squadron status symbol they wanted
- if it's only available for size X squadrons, players in squadrons smaller than X and lone players will be angry as they have no access to something they want (no matter if it is useful or not - see Cobra Mk IV)
- players will get angry because fleet carriers have not feature Y they absolutely wanted and imagined
- players will get angry because fleet carriers won't turn them into the glorious leaders they imagine they are
- players will get angry because squadron leaders are treating them as slaves
Business as usual…
Okay, if we go by precedent, as there are no moveable mega ships in the game with a shipyard (you can't do ship transfer), we should expect the same with these. If Fdev wanted that functionality in the game it could have been added ages ago. So we should expect that a single person can have a single ship on the carrier.
Do you still think it will be of use to a lone wolf player?
SOLO CARRIER = SAVEGAME AND ENDGAME
As I mentioned in another thread with regards to emotional and gameplay value for the solo player.
A fleet carrier, even in a very limited form can be seen as the "endgame ship" - a big bad-ass mothership.
Sort of how I first conceived of the Anaconda with a launchable sidewinder.
A fleet carrier gives the player the value of space station:
Now the balancing of such a thing would be immense, both in player cost/time and power creep.
and many would say, that it too would be unfair.
And to a billy no-mates like me who plays in open, this is my end-game ship.
So everything revolves around being able to outfit that smaller ship on the fly. This is where balancing becomes an issue.
Sidewinder, hauler and the Eagle would be the limit as they are low-powered, role-specific ships.
As much as I would love the Adder (the first versatile multi-rolled ship in the game) this is when the power-creep kicks in.
Engineered components make the other vessels like the Adder, Cobra MK3 + MK4, Diamondback Scout + Explorer, Dolphin, iEagle, iCourier, Viper Mk3+Mk4 and Vulture.
really really good.
So maybe having access to that kind of small ship with re-arm, repair, respawns and outfitting would be too much.
So the flexibility of that one ship eats up the capacity of your Mobile Station.
And if you want to respawn there.....once...twice... bye-bye module storage for outfitting.
But still, that does not answer the invincible "save-point" gameplay issues that would sully various mechanics and give rise to many loopholes (some hard to conceive until players stumble over them after implementation).
And we will call this, the Panther Clipper
As I mentioned in another thread with regards to emotional and gameplay value for the solo player.
A fleet carrier, even in a very limited form can be seen as the "endgame ship" - a big bad-ass mothership.
Sort of how I first conceived of the Anaconda with a launchable sidewinder.
(But the Annie due to the MMO balance pass, shall not be OP, and so thusly, it's vulnerable. If one of the big 3 ships are steered by a non-combative explorer or trader, they can be taken out by skilled players in lesser ships. Even a decent player landing on planets with Gravity greater than 1g, only needs to make small miscalculation to render entire months of exploration void. (please see my suggestions thread on data&cargo insurance) )
A fleet carrier gives the player the value of space station:
- safety (invincible docking)
- savegame point to return to (unless c&p rules are activated)
- outfitting
- repair
- restock
- re-arm
- long-distance jumping
Now the balancing of such a thing would be immense, both in player cost/time and power creep.
and many would say, that it too would be unfair.
And to a billy no-mates like me who plays in open, this is my end-game ship.
- Executive control of a big ship. Which is nothing more than an ugly engine with a spine
- Helm control does not exist.
- It can jump to locations but we can't "steer" the thing.
- at the lamest, the Ship supercruise assists to locations.
- Itself can not dock.
- possible turreted weapons.
- It can have one hanger "bay" for a small ship (not a launchable vehicle, but an actual small ship, like a sidewinder/hauler/adder/eagle).
- It has cargo-storage left over. But they are effectively shipping containers boxes. who's goods can be transferred to your smaller ship.
- for outfitting and module-storage. Well, it eats up that cargo storage. Class3 FSD takes up 8 units of space.
So everything revolves around being able to outfit that smaller ship on the fly. This is where balancing becomes an issue.
Sidewinder, hauler and the Eagle would be the limit as they are low-powered, role-specific ships.
As much as I would love the Adder (the first versatile multi-rolled ship in the game) this is when the power-creep kicks in.
Engineered components make the other vessels like the Adder, Cobra MK3 + MK4, Diamondback Scout + Explorer, Dolphin, iEagle, iCourier, Viper Mk3+Mk4 and Vulture.
really really good.
So maybe having access to that kind of small ship with re-arm, repair, respawns and outfitting would be too much.
So the flexibility of that one ship eats up the capacity of your Mobile Station.
And if you want to respawn there.....once...twice... bye-bye module storage for outfitting.
But still, that does not answer the invincible "save-point" gameplay issues that would sully various mechanics and give rise to many loopholes (some hard to conceive until players stumble over them after implementation).
And we will call this, the Panther Clipper
I think, if the carrier is envisaged to be buyable and used by solo players then the necessary surrounding problems would also have been ironed out at this stage.
Again as Robert said, rampant speculation...
If it were me... I'd be looking to implement a basic carrier which carries x number of ships and a squadron carrier which carries unlimited...
If 'balance' was an issue (And it shouldn't be because nothing else is balanced) they could make the jump cost and or jump distance, be based on the gross weight including all docked ships?
Can you fly all those alts at the same time to get the materials needed? I would love to see that happen.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Yes - as a lone wolf player is not restricted to one CMDR.
Would that make it still useful for a group of players? Why use a carrier if the same can be done easier and faster without a carrier?
Over theorising me thinks..
It's just a large ship I can dock my fleet to and move around as a unit. Anythign else is over-complication of a really simple mechanic.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Ooooh - I like that - resource requirement to jump based on distance and gross weight - maybe with jump drive upgrades available for those Squadrons sufficiently dedicated to earning them (and I don't mean just with credits)?
You can I only fly one commander at a time though. You can only use one commander to refuel and restock at a time. You can't use them all at the same time.
yes! And the upgrades would not be refundable. So taking that jump (to buy the upgrade) is one fraught with danger. ie; can you actually manage to maintain it? Will you have enough members int he future to maintain it?
it should all be simple mechanics with expensive losses.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Indeed not - however it neatly circumvents any arbitrary "one ship per CMDR" limitation.
So far this thread has been fascinating in the varied opinions & theories being aired. I'll admit to being interested in seeing what December brings, maybe my interpretation is loose but Fleet doesn't exactly sound like Squadron...
As for comparing ED to a multitude of other MMO's out there for the last 20 years... ED is pretty unique and the only 'competition' it has is Squadron leaderboards and very poorly implemented PowerPlay so I don't think we'll be seeing mass 'Dungeon Raids' being implemented 'Real Soon'... But that is only my opinion
I'd guess that however Fleet Carriers are implemented that the forum will be 'up in arms' about it because it doesn't support ... (pick your own flavour of salt)
(am I being too cynical?)
As for comparing ED to a multitude of other MMO's out there for the last 20 years... ED is pretty unique and the only 'competition' it has is Squadron leaderboards and very poorly implemented PowerPlay so I don't think we'll be seeing mass 'Dungeon Raids' being implemented 'Real Soon'... But that is only my opinion
I'd guess that however Fleet Carriers are implemented that the forum will be 'up in arms' about it because it doesn't support ... (pick your own flavour of salt)
(am I being too cynical?)
It does and I am sure people will try it, but it will also mean you are stuck in your own squadron without anyone else in it.
Personally what I would want to see is a small personal carrier, that maybe holds 2 or 3 small to medium sized ships.
Not sure how it will work though. Maybe when they jump to a system only you can see where your ship carrier is in the Nav Panel, which would stop people from knowing where it is. It would also stop it from cluttering the nav panel and system maps. I think if these personal carriers are to come about, then it will be in a different update. Expect these ones to be squadron only for the time being until we know more.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Having a number of altCMDRs on a Carrier (with unknown capability regarding the number of docked CMDRs)does not preclude other players joining a Squadron with as many CMDRs as they wish (subject to the 500 member Squadron limit, of course).
Basically I expect that any arbitrary limits put in place to limit acquisition of a Carrier by a Squadron will be able to be circumvented in some way, whether by a single player or by a group of players, not all of whom will remain with the Squadron after the "barn raising"....
Of course, and then it is a proper squadron isn't it, which is what they are designed for.
Again you are assuming that the squadron carrier will still be available to you when the threshold goes below what is allowed. You are still not thinking about timescales in regards to refuelling. I expect, by going on precedent that these will have a 500ly range. I expect these ships will balanced around the minimum amount of players in a squadron that can get one for refuelling, restocking etc. If it takes days or even weeks for a single player to get the required fuel (as it will be balanced around a group of a certain size), I still cannot see the point of having one. Ohh I can spend days or weeks to go 500ly by grinding for a material when I can get there in 12-15 minutes in a suitably specced ship.
If Fdev decide to make the refuelling/restocking is trivial, they may as not bother as it will just feel like busy work, better off not having a refuelling/restocking mechanic at all.
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