Powerplay 2.0 deep dive - Frontier Live 27th March

[metatheurgist]

They axed the idea of power collapse and power promotion because it was too hard to do programmatically ...back when they had way more apparent funding in the game.
supposedly this work has been going on for a long time though.

Lack of foresight again. They spent some coin on art making those PP leaders, I couldn't really see them commissioning art every time something changed.

Maybe if the political sim wasn't some Benny Hill/Keystone Cops parody where everything is running at high speed with batons being waved, people falling over and cars crashing while funny music is being played with systems being reshaped by players every week. If the political sim actually had weight and gravity, wars and conflicts were long lasting events with serious consequences instead of being a state someone games in a week for "fun". A power fall would be a major event in the game as a result of maybe years of maneuvering, that would justify new art.

 

[metatheurgist]

Solo was promoted to general because he had great skills in leadership, battle and the Rebels needed him to lead a mission. He did do a bunch of stuff as general. Princess Leia was a general in the Empire Strikes back. She was responsible for various strategies, and leading pilots, personnel of the Rebels. As senator she did significant diplomacy.

Notice everything in that article is grunt level stuff. The exact same thing every commander does and should do. Nothing about starting factions and running them. And again, Leia was a Princess, not a grunt.

 

[SergMx]

Well, if you play mostly in open, a certain degree of curtesy goes a long way to keeping you off everyone else's KOS list.

I totally forgot about that. Please, in order not to keep a large number of opposing force commanders on my blacklist, make it so I can just add the force I want to my blacklist.

 

[Cosmo]

Notice everything in that article is grunt level stuff.

Solo led the Pathfinders special forces and worked with the Ewoks to destroy the shield generators on Endor. In Star Wars, Rebel generals are often among regular soldiers. That's a lot more responsibility than a grunt. It would be cool to lead special forces in ED too and have such missions to reduce influence of other factions.

 

[SergMx]

Solo led the Pathfinders special forces and worked with the Ewoks to destroy the shield generators on Endor. In Star Wars, Rebel generals are often among regular soldiers. That's a lot more responsibility than a grunt. It would be cool to lead special forces in ED too and have such missions to reduce influence of other factions.

Well yes break the ideology of Elite, a tactical game where you are just a mercenary make it a strategy

 

[Cosmo]

Well yes break the ideology of Elite, a tactical game where you are just a mercenary make it a strategy

ED has deviated far from the original games (Elite, Elite II and First Encounters) which are mostly space-trading sims with occasional combat. ED has a bunch of features such as FPS, ground vehicles, SLF, PP that are new to the series. ED shouldn't become a strategy game, but creating a Minor Faction and leading a squad (players or NPCs) would be a great addition imo. PP should be entirely optional so players who want to do the traditional roles could keep doing that. Many systems in the Bubble have 0 players atm. So more gameplay options should increase player activity. These play styles can co-exist.

 

[SergMx]

ED has deviated far from the original games (Elite, Elite II and First Encounters) which are mostly space-trading sims with occasional combat. ED has a bunch of features such as FPS, ground vehicles, SLF, PP that are new to the series. ED shouldn't become a strategy game, but creating a Minor Faction and leading a squad (players or NPCs) would be a great addition imo. PP should be entirely optional so players who want to do the traditional roles could keep doing that. Many systems in the Bubble have 0 players atm. So more gameplay options should increase player activity. These play styles can co-exist.

Leadership? You're the leader of your carrier and your fleet. What kind of leadership do you need? Remember the movie FireFly.

 

[Cosmo]

Leadership? You're the leader of your carrier and your fleet. What kind of leadership do you need? Remember the movie FireFly.

The leader of a player-made Minor Faction and a squad (consists of players and/or NPCs). For example board a carrier of a competing faction, disable it to gain influence in a star system. Alternatively, conquer a planetary settlement for influence and control of a system. Squads vs on-foot Thargoids would be cool too.

 

[SergMx]

The leader of a player-made Minor Faction and a squad (consists of players and/or NPCs). For example board a carrier of a competing faction, disable it to gain influence in a star system. Alternatively, conquer a planetary settlement for influence and control of a system. Squads vs on-foot Thargoids would be cool too.

he current situation in PP does not provide for leadership as a person and rightly so ! Otherwise there will be not only those who manage but also those who are managed, in other words subordinates..

 

[Cosmo]

he current situation in PP does not provide for leadership as a person and rightly so ! Otherwise there will be not only those who manage but also those who are managed, in other words subordinates..

Well the Diamond Frogs is a minor faction with a leader called Big Frog. There are no significant in-game tools to manage the faction though. The members of the Diamond Frogs are volunteers and like to play together. Players start minor factions because they find it more fun to lead and represent themselves in the Bubble.

 

[SergMx]

Well the Diamond Frogs is a minor faction with a leader called Big Frog. There are no significant in-game tools to manage the faction though. The members of the Diamond Frogs are volunteers and like to play together. Players start minor factions because they find it more fun to lead and represent themselves in the Bubble.

If I'm not mistaken the developers made the right move a year ago, they removed the registration of new factions from players, I see this as preparation for PP2.

P.S. During my time playing a lot of factions appeared and just as many were abandoned and only 2 factions remain, they are Anti-Xeno and Fuel Rats and do you know why ? Because their activities are aimed at COOPerative and not at PVP.

 

[metatheurgist]

Solo led the Pathfinders special forces and worked with the Ewoks to destroy the shield generators on Endor. In Star Wars, Rebel generals are often among regular soldiers. That's a lot more responsibility than a grunt. It would be cool to lead special forces in ED too and have such missions to reduce influence of other factions.

Again, Field Work. No executive planning, no executive power. He's about a Colonel (highest level grunt), which is about as much initiative as he shows, despite being a "General". Just like I'm an "Admiral".

I do lead special forces in ED, it's pretty much what happens in a ground CZ. It's just that they have made it very boringly abstract. If only they would learn from Helldivers again.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Video: PowerPlay Version 2 - I have questions FDEV

The YT guy needs to ask better questions, that video was like pulling teeth.

but it did worry me when words to the effect of "PP2 will be like PP but super- enhanced!" came out... made me worry the core mechanics aren't going to change.

Conceptually PP V1 is fine- the problems it has is with execution and that its been frozen for over eight years. By conceptually I mean PP will still have you prep and contest systems, factions will still somehow be needed to be aligned and used as building blocks, and systems will still need to be kept from degrading.

Execution wise, V1 had little impact, is tedious (as in, the core gameplay is really an open ended cargo haul mission with a shooting equivalent), is hard to understand (it relies more on arcane maths than digestible concepts) as well as not being rewarding at the right times. All of these issues can be resolved using whats in the game now and putting a twist on them- its why I found what I saw interesting as it tentatively shows FD actually understand that (so far, at least) and are morphing V2 to be a visible upper layer to BGS gameplay.

The biggest dangers / concerns for me are:

1: C+P- PP and general play are separate since the former is more combat focused ( 1/3 to 50% of it requires lots of shooting for UM). If factions do indeed become UM targets how will the two systems mesh? If its too punative it will just make (3) below worse.

2: PP levels of decay rates / timers: hopefully again FD will use BGS like decay rates (which are more forgiving and logical) rather than brute force cuts. FD should also forget about gating materials behind timers and just allow someone to take what they need.

3: Stasis: V2 has to be dynamic, and avoid the trench warfare present today. I hope FD see that most PP work done today is really BGS work and use that aspect as the 'core'.

4: Its rewarding to those who engage with it properly. While I expect modules to be unlocked / available elsewhere I want to see proper and useful rewards. I certainly hope FD are imaginative here, because they could do so much- we already see exclusive PP FC clubhouses in strongholds where they could go.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

You're all wrong. We're not even Han Solo. We are one of the many nameless volunteer pilots in the background. If anything, we are Chewbacca - he didn't even get a medal .

 

[DemiserofD]

3: Stasis: V2 has to be dynamic, and avoid the trench warfare present today. I hope FD see that most PP work done today is really BGS work and use that aspect as the 'core'.

The problem is that without dynamic changes in the galaxy, things will always approach an 'ideal state' of perfect stasis.

 

[Jmanis]

They axed the idea of power collapse and power promotion because it was too hard to do programmatically ...back when they had way more apparent funding in the game.
supposedly this work has been going on for a long time though.

Though i don't disagree with the sentiment, do you have a ref to FD saying that? I don't recall that ever being the (publicly announced) case.

Thing is, that plays directly into my concern... it's not actually the case that having powers rise and fall is programatically difficult... it's that having powers rise and fall in the current PP system is programatically difficult, due to a litany of hard- coded/immovable things which, bluntly, need to be ditched. These include:

• bespoke portraiture
• plot armour
• module rewards
• (likely) hard coded influence effects
• decals
• tie ins to specific, balanced government/faction boons/maluses

Correcting that isn't just a case of making the current system better... it needs core rework.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Back to Powerplay and BGS (even if it's better to say: "local politics").

I think that the main difference is that in Powerplay you can actually pledge your alligeance to a faction, and that alligeance is something tangible in the game, in Local Politics you simply can't. Yes, your Squadron can be aligned with a Minor Faction, but that doesn't change the behaviour of NPCs towards you for example. Minor factions by design are a PITA to manage too, considering that influence and secondary states are driven by "passive" actions too, like working in a neighbouring system for a totally different faction that thargets with missions an opponent of your minor faction of choice. Local Politics have been designed to give players something to do.

What Powerplay need to be is simple, straightforward and promote conflict between different players, in that Powerplay should be really different and offer something different to players.

Then of course Local Politics can be played in a competitive way even without the fancy strange names often out of context that we all know and not everybody love but Powerplay should be designed for that kind of competition.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The problem is that without dynamic changes in the galaxy, things will always approach an 'ideal state' of perfect stasis.

No, what I mean is you have powers that co-operate rather than fight in Powerplay, hitched to a defensive mindset that ossifies into stasis because attack is difficult. The whole point of PP is to be #1 and see your enemies scattered before you- there is a reason why PP has really become a BGS game because thats where change is possible.

FUC, ZYADA etc should be counter productive in the end, because a Power should crave power- otherwise you have sock puppeting.

 

[Darth Ender]

what would improve pp without the need for real innovation is eliminating the amount of systems that contain pointless copies of content.

if the thargoids give humanity a middle finger on thier way out and destroy 90% of the populated systems in the bubble, that would still be way more systems than the playerbase needs but it would significantly increase the impact and importance of the remaining systems. enough to allow interesting and unique events. pp would be competing over actually limited systems that is sustainable by the participating players. scarcity of resources + the existing (for the most part) pp mechanic would instantly improve not just pp but most of the bgs and player activity across the game.

or alternatively, don't destroy the systems. poison hyperspace itself. disrupt it such that hyperspace travel is harder from certain vectors. dictated by hot and cold spots on the surface of a sphere around a system, controlled by the stellar forge by repurposing an existing distribution calc it already does for mass and mapping it to a sphere. then the direction you jump in and out is impacted by where you are exiting or entering that sphere. so now travelling in space just got a lot more interesting. some places will be easier to jump to. some will require much more energy (fuel) and thus reduce your jump distance if hopping into a given system. some way be cut off entirely. this will be restricted to the bubble area.

that would impact pp pretty interestingly. certain systems will be strategic... being low cost hop systems.., some control systems may be costly.. this has the effect of scarcity of systems without needing to actually destroy 90%. and it has the effect of rolling back jump distance inflation that breaks any believability of so many different governments being so close together because you effectively have made them much further apart without actually having to move them. and since this only affects the bubble, long distance travel in the black is not punished. navigating the bubble would actually require some strategy and planning, rather than hopping instantly 50+ly in practically anything except an fdl. pp operations would have choke holds and systems that are actually important based on their physical location beyond just the flipping of surrounding systems or the coincidence of how the bubble is populated. the cc from pp systems could be impacted from this as well. with income being buffed or taxed by the hyperspace resistance level of the systems surrounding it. cost to expand, also impacted by the resistance to the nearest control system measured in direct hop.

the pp mechanic doesn't really change. you just change the travel mechanic and make sure certain things are tied to that travel metric.

we won't get something cool like that but well.., it's nice to imagine the elite that could be.

they really should just focus on releasing with mod support, opening the server back end to third party hosting and just give up the whole mmo shared narrative. call the goid war the end of the canonical game and let the community make the game they want, allowing fdev to keep elite relevant while they figure out how to use the ip in a new game before the final memory the public has (if they remember it at all) of it is a mixed review of a tediously grind mechanic happy set of games loops that were hacked on to a procedural galaxy simulator that peaked when it launched in 2015/16.

 

[SergMx]

Back to Powerplay and BGS (even if it's better to say: "local politics").

I think that the main difference is that in Powerplay you can actually pledge your alligeance to a faction, and that alligeance is something tangible in the game, in Local Politics you simply can't. Yes, your Squadron can be aligned with a Minor Faction, but that doesn't change the behaviour of NPCs towards you for example. Minor factions by design are a PITA to manage too, considering that influence and secondary states are driven by "passive" actions too, like working in a neighbouring system for a totally different faction that thargets with missions an opponent of your minor faction of choice. Local Politics have been designed to give players something to do.

What Powerplay need to be is simple, straightforward and promote conflict between different players, in that Powerplay should be really different and offer something different to players.

Then of course Local Politics can be played in a competitive way even without the fancy strange names often out of context that we all know and not everybody love but Powerplay should be designed for that kind of competition.

PP gives me the right to kill the enemy and not get a bad reputation for it !