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With respect, Jigs, I wasn't trying to shut anything down. What I was trying to do, albeit apparently too subtlety, was say that for me the conversation is going round in circles and that I am dropping out of it. Please feel free to continue for as long as you like. I was simply giving a reason why I won't participate in it any longer, if you wish to project some other meaning on it, I cannot stop you.
PvP Flag in Open Play for NOPVP players.
- Thread starter Syrtal
- Start date
Frankly I don't think many people outside this forum even remember the slaver ship debacle. And truth be told it's a bit odd description to say that Open is a cesspool. Sure the mode has systems where less savoury people congregate, but it's hardly a massive issue. Now the system chat in CG systems...
Could do me a favour and read my first response in this thread, because you're coming to this issue with an unhelpfully black and white vision of the issue which makes me think you haven't really considered other people's viewpoints (or perhaps have a less-than-complete understanding of the game's systems). Maybe you have and are continuing regardless, but you keep making categorical declarations about things that are by no means that simple. Open play is not a binary "ganker and gankee" hellscape, and it's possible for the perceived ganking problem to be solved or reduced in ways that don't suffocate legitimate diegetic or voluntary conflicts, or step on the enjoyment of another section of the playerbase.
I didn't know! Thanks i Googled it and found in 0 time!!!!!!!! I'll check if this PVT works well (I imagine is a group policy where if you do PVP you're kicked out)
I think it's a good idea.
I was speaking about those who would be against pvp flags. Only gankers would have an issue with that as only their playstyle depends on forcing unsolicited pvp on others.
If you do organized pvp or duels this doesn't affect you.
Mate, we can't possibly have an interesting discussion about this if all you're operating on are (wrong) assumptions.
Funny how these threads keep getting made but it's crazy-talk when I suggest the majority of players don't care for pvp....
The problem with the "no PvP flag" is it directly affects the piracy career path which relies on PvP. Piracy being a legitimate path to take has to be taken into account and quite frankly in this (and many other threads just as "original" as this one) simply isn't.
Simply untrue and just proves my point above.
There are a lot of players who will just continue playing in Solo until there is a solution to this issue. Somehow I don’t feel the current options of playing will ever change.
Piracy career path? You must be kidding. You don't get to make a "career" of out forcing others players to be your personal content. That right there is exactly the kind of crap we're talking about!
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Well a good start I guess would be for you to set me straight on my wrong assumptions instead of just saying I'm wrong? I believe we can have an interesting discussion on this but you have to allow for the possibility that I have a valid self-interest in this topic. Otherwise what would be the point of a discussion?
Yesterday I tried to suggest that when people use the private group feature to essentially create a gigantic whitelist filter of all of Elite to exclude PVP, consisting of 20k+ members, might be indicative of something significant I was shouted down.Likewise, I didn’t know about this either. Thanks for the link
But I maintain that summation. I am quite sure FDEV never could have imagined originally the PG feature would be used as such to that scale. But it indicates something is clearly and fundamentally BROKEN about the current structure of Open play.
Groups like Mobius are awesome, but they shouldn't have to exist as such outside of open. It's absurd that FDEV, and some community members, don't see that clearly. Elite could be an amazing MMO for all players. Instead of this fractured mess we have now.
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PvP Flag in Open Play for NOPVP players.
My proposal is to introduce a PVP / NoPVP FLAG in open play (with strong limitation of change to avoid exploiting). The reason behind this is that some player (like myself) play very small amounts of time due to personal matters and doesn't like to be blown-up by overpowered player pirates...
You've been blazing past posts that do present other viewpoints, which is the cause of my frustration here. You're fixating on ganking and not allowing any other considerations, of which there are many, to factor in.
I'm going to try to run through some points here and we'll see how that goes:
- There are many diegetic and legitimate reasons to engage in conflict in game, not all of which are immediately discernible. Whether it's all-out shooting or running interference a player can be fully justified in a hostile action, possibly without your knowledge. If you don't engage with, understand or even agree with these justifications that doesn't mean they aren't there or aren't important to many people. Frontier could solve this more elegantly through signposting and incentivising these systems better.
- Even players who don't themselves participate in PvP can enjoy the frisson and danger of Open. It is not a binary choice between bloodthirsty ganker and helpless gankee. This is perhaps the most common and significant misconception in these kinds of threads. Whether you like it or not is just one opinion among multiple valid opinions.
- Some of Elite's biggest selling points are its shared systems and immersive presentation. It'd be actively detrimental to the enjoyment of many players if Fdev godhanded invulnerability settings into the game. Vulnerable and invulnerable players coexisting adjacent to the same stakes and systems would be clunky, janky and garbage in the eyes of many. That's something you either care about or don't, I'm not asking you to care but to acknowledge that others do, whether or not they're PvPers.
- To a large extent the solutions people claim to want already exist. I know that people don't like to hear it, and I know it's an incomplete solution that is worth discussing, but Mobius PvE exists and you are often just as likely to see people in there (I'm told) as you are in Open. Collecting like-minded people together in the same instance is a good idea.
- Space is hecking big and 99% of the time you're not going to see anyone anywhere regardless of what mode you're in, and that 1% of the time you do see someone the chances of them being hostile are actually quite small. The ganking issue is perceived to be weightier than it is due to how CGs and engineer systems attract large numbers of players to the same space. Lumbering the game with a clunky flag system when it could be solved through more subtle or even diegetic means would seem like a big shame to many people. Even if you disagree with the modes as-implemented, acknowledging the different degrees and ways in which Frontier could potentially intervene would help ease the discussion along.
I think you're being completely unfair. I HAVE considered those things, and I read your post just now and your points VERY carefully.
But...what do you want from me? If I were to take all those considerations to their fullest extent - I wouldn't be able to advocate for what I want out of Elite. I'm hardly unique. People say this stuff, and complain about ganks, EVERY DAY here. So what, we're just supposed to go screw off and not discuss changes we see as positive for us?
If you don't want flags, fine, then come up with some other compromise and I'm all for it. But we need deep foundational changes to this, and I will not be moved on that point.
Other more populated and popular games get this right. It's not some radical new concept. Why not Elite? Or like Rat suggested, why not just have a PVE Open server and be done with it? It would be the same as a huge Mobius PG would it not?
I totally agree with everything you said. Unfortunately, it seems the only avenue for players wishing to have an open experience in game without the threat of PVP is to join private groups like Mobius. If Mobius’ stats are correct then it’s sad to see that their 40,000+ members aren’t enough to get something changed, or at least reviewed.
Exactly. The fact that Mobius exists is a huge flipping red flag to everyone that something is just....wrong here. But nope, we're the crazy ones or something lol.
Groups like Mobius are awesome, and well done to players organising it. Any kind of collaborative community effort in Elite is always heartwarming to see and I genuinely wish everyone the best out of their playtime. They should exist outside of open because of all the things I said above, in my (and many others') opinion. Mainly just so I don't have the unimmersive intrusion of lore-breaking invulnerable players riding balls-out unimpeded over systems I am (for better or worse) invested in.
You don't seem particularly open to the possibility that what's best for you might not be best for others. Extrapolating based on your opinion, and that of a few forum posts is biased. Generally only people with strong feelings one way or another are even going to bother making an account. It's worth remembering that sometimes - most people, one can assume, truck on just fine most of the time.
I personally would have no major issues with Mobius being made an official mode in principle, although implementing this would be pretty complicated or unattractive from a dev point of view. Some issues I can think of off the top of my head:
- Mobius only works on a trust basis, you can still hurt people in it, you're just told not to and risk being expelled if you do. I believe there are some rules like if you meet someone on the opposite side of a CZ you're free to engage? Even Mobius seems to acknowledge certain reasons for conflict, and works around it based on the goodwill and understanding of its playerbase. Hard-coding this into a gamemode would probably be pretty laborious, and arguably not super necessary given Mobius exists already.
- Frontier presumably present Elite as they intend it to be engaged with. Putting a lot of time and effort into programming a 'sanctioned' Mobius mode might not reflect what they want the game to be. That's their prerogative, frankly. For my part I disagree with significant other portions of their design, so I get that it can be frustrating, but it is what it is.
- I would also like to reiterate that I think, to a large extent, this kind of solution is an inelegant patch for a perceived problem that would be better solved through other, preferably diegetic means, and I really do think better for everyone. Tangible differences in system security level, more workable and fair HP balancing, more clearly signposted outlets to channel conflict, more stakes for crimes / better responses from NPC security etc. There's a lot of room for things to be improved in more subtle, interesting ways than slapping godmode on.
That's very interesting. By that logic, the fact that Open Only Powerplay and Open-weighted BGS threads keep getting made, surely you must conclude that the majority of players support these suggestions. I look forward to reading your next post in the currently ongoing thread about Open-Only/weighted Powerplay - I do hope you will gracefully concede that the majority of players are in favour, and it therefore must be followed through.Funny how these threads keep getting made but it's crazy-talk when I suggest the majority of players don't care for pvp....