PvP Flag in Open Play for NOPVP players.

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

So you want to tell people how to play because you feel like gankers tell you how to play? Elite is a sandbox. Anything is a legitimate playstyle. If you want to mess up someone else's day, thats great. If they don't want their day messed up, there are ways to do so before you log in, and in game. Cherrypicking encounters makes BGS (something the majority of squadrons participate in) almost certainly pseudo-solo only! If everyone can pick between player interdictions and NPC interdictions, NPCs will be chosen no contest. If NPCs are still total useless toothless vipers and anacondas, there is no risk to open, and all the benefit of being able to do it while thumbing your nose at your opponent. How is this a healthy choice for direct competition in modes such as powerplay or similar by making haulers (vulnerable targets that should be destructible as a way to prevent your enemies from scoring). Lets put this in perspective with sports. Take football (American football) as an example. Lets say you aren't allowed to do anything to the other team as they throw and run down the field with the ball. The only way you can actually stop them from scoring is if they mess up themselves. Without PvP gameplay, there is 0 threat in open or even the Opt in pvp mode.

Yeah I don't believe. Sounds like a combination of anecdotal evidence and general unreliability of that statement.

I would think that combat between opposite sides in combat zones is legitimate gameplay. Similarly, its not a gank if its about the juicy combat bond that comes attached to pvp kills in combat zones (10% of rebuy is nothing to sneeze at, especially when they're in a corvette).

I mean you get to advance your PMF's agenda, or give your power more favorable systems through BGS. That's a motive and mechanism in and of itself. Similarly, I get tired of posts saying "there's no story! elite boring!". Thats because the majority of elite's story has to come from the player. At the end of the day, you need to justify your own actions, while also discovering bits of the galactic story unfolding. The information and galnet stuff is a framework for you to build your own story, so if you think its not deep or character progressive to team up with a side and be loyal, as opposed to swapping left and right, good on you.

In short, Im against this invulnerability as it makes legitimate targets for piracy and powerplay be able to gain the benefits of open without the risks. If Open (a mode with many times more players than Mobius) has to bow to the whims of a vocal minority, I don't think that's healthy to the game or community as a whole. What's next? Miners leveraging their newfound power to whine loudly to demand a station with permanent high demand for Vopals, Musgravite, LTD, and stuff? Traders demanding they get G5 mats per ton of cargo delivered? Point is, this just seems absurd to make opt-in pvp mode (open), have a further opt-in step. I think it should be all or nothing. Everyone or no one. If you think the good isnt worth the bad, you don't have to opt in at the menu screen.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk

I'm not telling anyone how to play. If you like ganking, find people who are flagged for PVP and gank them. If you like the thrill and danger of spontaneous PVP, leave your flag on and you can have that. NOBODY loses in this. It's a no-brainer. And I am not dictating ANY terms to anyone.

Now I'm going to ignore where you called me a liar and address your other points.

Your "sandbox" ends where my personal sandbox begins. Elite has sandbox content, yes. Other players who do not wish to be that content for you, are expressing that here. We are NOT your content, you need to respect that position or there can be no civil discourse. If you don't respect your fellow players, I fail to see why they should respect your wishes.

I'm sorry you are tired of seeing those posts. Maybe you see them come up so much because....well...there's some merit in what I'm saying? I mean I know it's a crazy concept, but think about it.

And about this:

In short, Im against this invulnerability as it makes legitimate targets for piracy and powerplay be able to gain the benefits of open without the risks.

Well you and others seem perfectly fine with driving people into Solo or PG's anyway, so what's it matter? The risks are the same either way if people are avoiding Open!

If you think the good i snt worth the bad, you don't have to opt in at the menu screen

Didn't you JUST accuse me of telling other how to play? Nice irony bud.

 

[Cdr Voorheez]

Ganking.
'Legitimate' game style.
Of course....

Source: https://media.giphy.com/media/vaG6cg6OhyY7u/giphy.gif

 

[Syrtal]

If i can, the problem is much more complex. Creating a Demarcation line between ganking and legitimate PvP is not so intuitive and immediate but in utopistic view it would be useful.

I started with a specific way of thinking this post but i strongly changed my mind now after seeing the point of PvP lovers, they deserve right to play as they like.

Anyway main thing is, being actively a ganker has less drawbacks than being ganked (you loose ship and time).

The ganker who plays around killling for example people at Deciat System that enters with a exploration papership 3 times only to enjoy that they reswpan being "stationary" around a specific point in real life this strategy is sos tupid that local authority would have jailed them immediately making them non-offensive. That's the real point!

Gankers exists also in reality they are called mad-criminals and society to avoid issue generate the unlimited detention (or depending from the country there are various kind of punishment) but, this is a game and here this behavior makes them uncontrollable.

I saw in various groups etc that there are "hotspots" where gankers normally aggregates and do their stupid game-ruining play, and is far more common than PVP lovers admit but far less common than PVP haters admit (I a PVP hater).

I don't know if a real solution exists but something to rebalance and discourage useless crazy cmdrs serial explosion should be done cause this is NOT giving the game it's immersive environment.

That's a good compromise but far difficult to be achieved cause id difficult to inhibit a behavior that has no clear demarcation line safe very occasional type (like camper that stays hours waiting in a system and systematically kills only small unarmed ships that i imagine is not so common cause after some time becomes boring).

Personally I'll try to play on Mobius PVT, but should be noted as a important point for @fdadmin1 Fdev that a community of 40k people that join a private non PVP group is a strong signal from a part of the community that should not go unnoticed.

cmdr Syrtal

 

[AnimatedDust]

My proposal is to introduce a PVP / NoPVP FLAG in open play (with strong limitation of change to avoid exploiting). The reason behind this is that some player (like myself) play very small amounts of time due to personal matters and doesn't like to be blown-up by overpowered player pirates literally wasting precious hours of in-game time which translate in weeks of real life (people with families play few few time).

The Idea is:
1. Having a NoPVP flag makes aggressive interaction with other players impossible both ways (no way to directly damage other players ships or being damaged by them)
2. the NoPVP flag cannot be changed at will and not often thus limited to a
a) number of change per month/year or
b) once changed blocked for fixed amount of time weeks/months/a year
c) fixed days of the year
d) a combination of the above

Cmdr Syrtal

We already have a PVP flag system. What is the use of seeing a ship in Open play if you can't attack it? How will you be able to tell the difference? Best thing is to make other players invisible while sharing the same galaxy, thus Solo play. What we need is something similar to Eve Online: a serious police response in anything but anarchy systems, if you engage in PVP you will most likely lose your ship. And couple that with some Open play only benefits.

 

[Syrtal]

We already have a PVP flag syste. What is the use of seeing a ship in Open play if you can't attack it? How will you be able to tell the difference? Best thing is to make other players invisible while sharing the same galaxy, thus Solo play.

We went far above this you came late. Discussion went far beyond this. Read all the threads if you like to contribute

 

[Ytterium]

I'm not telling anyone how to play. If you like ganking, find people who are flagged for PVP and gank them. If you like the thrill and danger of spontaneous PVP, leave your flag on and you can have that. NOBODY loses in this. It's a no-brainer. And I am not dictating ANY terms to anyone.

You're dictating that even if you can be seen, you can't be shot which is not only immersion breaking, but ridiculous. Plus it opens the gate for more creative ways to aggro npcs and stations on to you. Similarly, the people that lose are the people that want to oppose something. Lets consider 2 competitive hauling community goals. There are two ways to block the competition from winning. 1.) Blowing up their haulers 2.) outhauling them. By eliminating the first solution, you are dictating the only way to win this competition is through non-combat methods. The loser here? Gameplay. The people dictating the terms? The people with their flags off. At least with solo and group, you can pull everyone you see in open. If there is no consequence for this, and people can change back and forth willy-nilly, it just means organic pvp is even more dead than it already was. As someone who's been doing some blockades with FUC recently to oppose AD expansions, powerplay blockades are both very fun, and only possible because open does not have a further sieve of who can shoot what that totally breaks down under any view from an in universe perspective.

Your "sandbox" ends where my personal sandbox begins. Elite has sandbox content, yes. Other players who do not wish to be that content for you, are expressing that here. We are NOT your content, you need to respect that position or there can be no civil discourse.

Then they can play in solo? Open is a large community sandbox. If people want to defecate in it, that's their perogative. Everyone shares the galaxy, and if you don't want your sand castle crushed, then go make it in the private sandbox. By playing in open, everyone consents to be everyone else's content. By sharing a galaxy, you can appear in someone else's game and vice versa. That's already content. If you don't want to be anyone else's content, nobody else is going to make content out of you in solo. Similarly "there can be no civil discourse". Of course. That goes out the window when people start calling outlaws and PvPers sociopaths, closet murderers, and worse. Frankly, most Gankers are more friendly towards their victims than vice versa. At least gankers don't attack people irl, harass people in system chat, or make fun of them when they die.

I'm sorry you are tired of seeing those posts. Maybe you see them come up so much because....well...there's some merit in what I'm saying? I mean I know it's a crazy concept, but think about it.

Quantity=|=Quality. Just because people scream at the top of their lungs doesn't mean what they say is true.

Well you and others seem perfectly fine with driving people into Solo or PG's anyway, so what's it matter? The risks are the same either way if people are avoiding Open!

Im in favor of OOPP, but this isnt a thread for it. Im fine with people going to solo because there they have no false expectations of safety or friendliness whereas in open they don't realize that by clicking "Open Play", they're consenting to me blowing them up and enjoying the show.

 

[Fake Newts]

NOBODY loses in this. It's a no-brainer.

Still just genuinely sad that I've been over this point several times and you're still not even going to acknowledge any grey area in this case. People do lose out in this for the reasons I outlined 400 years ago when this thread started.

It's to the extent that blocking is 100% a better solution for me because if you aren't subject to the same rules as everything else in the instance, sharing an instance with you at all would be detrimental to me.

Opt-out of PvP if you wish to and that's absolutely fine. No hard feelings whatsoever. Don't opt-out and yet still clutter up instances flaunting your magical powers though, thanks.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

What is the use of seeing a ship in Open play if you can't attack it?

LOL oh man. I rest my case.

Behold the noble "PVP" player in all his glory. Me see spaceship, me have to kill it. Why u no want me kill?

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

that a community of 40k people that join a private non PVP group is a strong signal from a part of the community that should not go unnoticed.

This is really a moot point to me, if 40k people did that, then 40k people resolved an issue (massive assumption btw that they all went there to avoid ganking) by the tools provided (PG).

FD have resolved the issue without having to introduce flags or whatever.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Still just genuinely sad that I've been over this point several times and you're still not even going to acknowledge any grey area in this case. People do lose out in this for the reasons I outlined 400 years ago when this thread started.

It's to the extent that blocking is 100% a better solution for me because if you aren't subject to the same rules as everything else in the instance, sharing an instance with you at all would be detrimental to me.

Opt-out of PvP if you wish to and that's absolutely fine. No hard feelings whatsoever. Don't opt-out and yet still clutter up instances flaunting your magical powers though, thanks.

In my line of real life work we have an expression: Perfect is the enemy of good.

Is there grey area, sure. Not denying that. Is it big enough to stop the progress we want and need? No, not even close.

 

[Syrtal]

This is really a moot point to me, if 40k people did that, then 40k people resolved an issue (massive assumption btw that they all went there to avoid ganking) by the tools provided (PG).

FD have resolved the issue without having to introduce flags or whatever.

True but is player driven simply this says that if Frontier Developers create a NO PVP Open play this 40K people would IMMEDIATELY flow here from the PVT making it "institutional" and not due to be maintained and regulated by passionate community of people that paid for the gaming experience that they created, but instead maintained by who received their money. Remember that this is a product and we're customer, for this reason i take into consideration PvP lovers right to play as they want and i changed my mind (as already said before).

 

[Fake Newts]

Using the popularity of private groups to try and support an argument that we need to change open is like saying 'I have so many clothes in my cupboard it really shows that I need a cupboard'.

 

[Fake Newts]

Is there grey area, sure. Not denying that. Is it big enough to stop the progress we want and need? No, not even close.

I'm honestly starting to wonder whether you're trolling, to be honest. You don't get to decide what everyone wants.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

You're dictating that even if you can be seen, you can't be shot which is not only immersion breaking, but ridiculous.

Then fine, shoot me. Then make it so after two seconds, 10 Elite level police Corvettes jump on my location and pound you into sand or chase you away. After all, I am an ally of the Federation and the Alliance. I'm kind of a big deal, and they have my back. There, immersive enough?

I mean christ, if you want to behave like an animal prepare to get treated as one.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

I'm honestly starting to wonder whether you're trolling, to be honest. You don't get to decide what everyone wants.

I'm not declaring what everyone wants. I'm agreeing with the OP, and saying it's also what I want. Again, why are you making this more than it is?

Accusations of trolling are SO annoying. You make points, I make points. We don't agree, fine. That's not trolling man....

 

[Syrtal]

Using the popularity of private groups to try and support an argument that we need to change open is like saying 'I have so many clothes in my cupboard it really shows that I need a cupboard'.

no I'm not saying that. See your a little bit tricking what I'm saying. I'll do it straightforward with a example in my work. I work in R&D and Product Development, very often (technically always) we do exactly this. if there is a "consistent enough" request of a customization well we'll do it cause that's simply money and business of course each business, you make a business case, dev cost vs business benefit (that is not only new customers) if profitable you proceed. And sometimes happens that customers "customize products on their own" and ask to make it to the supplier cause if the supplier does it normally is done "better", and THAT'S exactly the case. I'm not saying that 40K people is worth (that a Frontier Developers evaluation) but is a number that makes sense to do not underestimate cause maybe if becomes official it could increase of a tenfold magnitude (or maybe not) currently looking a bit online the statistics 40k is a poor number (around 0.2% of estimated total players) but if become 400k it changes caus 2% of a business start to become meaninful. You get the point?

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

no I'm not saying that. See your a little bit tricking what I'm saying. I'll do it straightforward with a example in my work. I work in R&D and Product Development, very often (technically always) we do exactly this. if there is a "consistent enough" request of a customization well we'll do it cause that's simply money and business of course each business, you make a business case, dev cost vs business benefit (that is not only new customers) if profitable you proceed. And sometimes happens that customers "customize products on their own" and ask to make it to the supplier cause if the supplier does it normally is done "better", and THAT'S exactly the case. I'm not saying that 40K people is worth (that a Frontier Developers evaluation) but is a number that makes sense to do not underestimate cause maybe if becomes official it could increase of a tenfold magnitude (or maybe not) currently looking a bit online the statistics 40k is a poor number (around 0.2% of estimated total players) but if become 400k it changes caus 2% of a business start to become meaninful. You get the point?

The mental gymastics these guys go through to hand-wave away the Mobius evidence is, frankly, obnoxious.

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

40K people would IMMEDIATELY flow here

Assumption. You cant know that.

maintained and regulated by passionate community of people

Right, so these people that might enjoy maintaining that group, you want to strip them of that?

Remember that this is a product and we're customer,

Frankly, I got the game I paid for. Anyone who purchased an MMO who was afraid of ganking should have done more research before purchase on how FD tackle the issue.

The thing is, you've rather skipped over the point I was making.

Mobius is only possible because of a facility FD installed in the game, thereby, FD have already resolved this issue. They have created the facility for like minded players to gather together, possibly to hide from gankers, possibly for a multitude of other reasons.

 

[Fake Newts]

I'm not declaring what everyone wants. I'm agreeing with the OP, and saying it's also what I want. Again, why are you making this more than it is?

You continue to be categorical about what 'needs' to be done and to use the first person plural as if everyone agrees with you.

Many people wouldn't benefit from what the OP proposed. They've voiced their opinions as well.

Compromises and recourse

no I'm not saying that. See your a little bit tricking what I'm saying. I'll do it straightforward with a example in my work. I work in R&D and Product Development, very often (technically always) we do exactly this. if there is a "consistent enough" request of a customization well we'll do it cause that's simply money and business of course each business, you make a business case, dev cost vs business benefit (that is not only new customers) if profitable you proceed. And sometimes happens that customers "customize products on their own" and ask to make it to the supplier cause if the supplier does it normally is done "better", and THAT'S exactly the case. I'm not saying that 40K people is worth (that a Frontier Developers evaluation) but is a number that makes sense to do not underestimate cause maybe if becomes official it could increase of a tenfold magnitude (or maybe not) currently looking a bit online the statistics 40k is a poor number (around 0.2% of estimated total players) but if become 400k it changes caus 2% of a business start to become meaninful. You get the point?

Sorry, I wasn't really responding to you, you've been pretty consistently reasonable ITT and fwiw I do think that frontier could make hooking up with like-minded players in like-minded instances easier.

What I meant is there are currently systems in game that enable people to solve to a great extent the problems laid out here without being actively detrimental to others. Those systems might not be spectacularly well implemented, but honestly what is in this game.

 

[Fake Newts]

The mental gymastics these guys go through to hand-wave away the Mobius evidence is, frankly, obnoxious.

Ok just a troll then. Got it. Good game, buddy, good game.