PvP (Open) commanders not welcome on this forum?...

[Riverside]

I used to race in an online league with work friends and colleagues.

2 took each other out on a fast corner. This escalated into a heated argument then the following day their boss had to pull them apart to stop them hitting each other

These were 2 friends who had an accident. ..... At this point i decided enouh was enough i have no interest once things get that competative, imagine if 2 people some competative who dont know each other get involved.

I used to run an online racing league. I've been threatened, confronted IRL & spammed/ddos'd for just being the one in charge & not cow-towing to their opinions.

Things can get very heated, but never so much as when the two meet in game a lot & the hatred really has time to stew.

You don't hate strangers, you hate people you know.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Unfortunately it's not only pixels, it's a time related factor. Like when some people get stuck in traffic and loose their temper.

Actually it's nothing at all like being stuck in traffic.

You lost your time because someone shot your ship?

No you didn't. You lost your time when you decided to spend it playing a video game. You can't lose it twice.

 

[Martian Successor]

There is a phrase about sticks and stones that comes to mind. Is that not the case? Then PvPers can knock it off too.

Knock what off? No idea what that statement is in reference to concerning my post :S

BGS manipulation is easily countered. Do some counter manipulation of your own, or just move to a different system. I have several systems that I move between to avoid just that sort of scenario. Can't possibly get them all. BGS manipulation is not only easily avoided, but easily countered. Only one of the two statements is true for direct pvp. 2 > 1.

Disagree. Both types of PvP can be avoided and countered.

How to avoid direct PvP (i.e. ship to ship combat):
- Play in Solo
- Play in a Private Group
- Stay away from CGs or busy areas in Open

How to counter direct PvP:
- Learn to fight; Fight back with a proper PvP fit build
- Learn to run; High wake when interdicted

Now for indirect BGS PvP. How to avoid:
- Learn to work the BGS and build up your faction so it is not easily assailable

How to counter:
- Work to push back the enemy's attempts and pray to God you have more numbers on your side.

However, a BGS attack can always be started and waged against whoever you want, whenever you want. Ship to ship combat cannot be started against someone in Solo or a PG group you are not a member of. And that's really my point as to which one is easier to avoid. By using Solo or PG you can guarantee never to see direct PvP. There is no such guarantee with the BGS since it can be attacked from all modes - sure it would be crazy for someone to attack a well fortified faction but nothing stops them trying whereas crucially direct PvP can be cut out entirely by the player if they so choose. With the BGS you fortify your systems and hope for the best.

Just because something is part of the game doesn't mean that I have to be happy with it. Besides, this is the actions of someone else, not the actions of the game.

Um... so is the act of typing abuse. That's the player doing it not the game. And typing abuse is expressly stated as against the rules. Combat of any form is not. You may not like it but that's the way it is. Typing abuse is more serious that blowing up space pixels because it is directly attacking the person behind the screen and that's not on. This is a game and no one should have to deal with verbal or written abuse.

If you use the phrase "all due respect" or "no offence" there is always a "but" and what follows the "but" is ALWAYS offensive or disrespectful. Nice red herring to boot. Griefing someone easily qualifies as harassment, which violates the EULA. Works both ways.

Yeah, ok. Next time I'll just say "with no due respect whatsoever"

The phrase is meant as a way of saying, "Nothing personal but I very strongly disagree." if you want to take it personally after that that''s on you. I mean I could just forget about the etiquette and go with, "what a load of bollix" if you'd like?

Thanks for the red herring btw, tasty. 'Griefing someone' has specific definitions attached to it such as repeatedly interdicting the same person or not letting them leave the station, etc. PvP is not greifing by default (it depends how it's used) whereas texting abuse is harassment and bullying by default. Simples.

The twisting comment was intentional. I didn't include it again for no reason. I know I did it on purpose. That was the entire point. Yes you apologized for the one, but then you did it again. So I pointed it out again.

I am directly addressing what you say and then you accuse me of twisting your words. So forgive me for not letting you get away with accuse me of something I am not doing. If I am somehow misinterpreting the subtext or additional meaning behind your words well... this is text based communication for you. Subtext and nuances of meaning don't really work the same as when speaking in person.

 

[xondk]

Well I have my views of course and I can't deny some of that is based upon the endless mudslinging thats gone on, so if my posts aren't couched in 100% politically correct language I'm not going to apologise for that. The theme of this thread was that PvPers are unwelcome on this board and I think thats a modest way of putting it.

I don't see whats wrong with what I wrote but its not intended as trying to belittle anyone. I certainly haven't used any perjorative terms

There's absolutely no need for "politically correct" not one bit, I've agreed with both sides of the whole argument just fine, without attacking anyone, because I focus on the topic not the people doing the posting which seemingly is what you do, who and how they say something rather then what they are saying?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

...

Well I have my views of course and I can't deny some of that is based upon the endless mudslinging thats gone on, so if my posts aren't couched in 100% politically correct language I'm not going to apologise for that. The theme of this thread was that PvPers are unwelcome on this board and I think thats a modest way of putting it.

I don't see whats wrong with what I wrote but its not intended as trying to belittle anyone. I certainly haven't used any perjorative terms

...

Oh come on. No one buys this damsel in distress thing. There is no mudslinging. It is well known that crab tier players live in the mud like the peasants they are. What did you think would happen if you try sticking the e-peen right into the midst of it?

 

[Fracktal]

Actually it's nothing at all like being stuck in traffic.

You lost your time because someone shot your ship?

No you didn't. You lost your time when you decided to spend it playing a video game. You can't lose it twice.

And you can have lost your time in traffic because you left at the wrong time, decided to go on holidays instead of staying home or simply picked the wrong way.

I stand by my analogy. If you decide to have a hobby and someone spoil it for you, this person wasted your time. Hobby or not. Video game, driving, working or any kind of time eating activity.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

And you can have lost your time in traffic because you left at the wrong time, decided to go on holidays instead of staying home or simply picked the wrong way.

I stand by my analogy. If you decide to have a hobby and someone spoil it for you, this person wasted your time. Hobby or not. Video game, driving, working or any kind of time eating activity.

So why is that person special over the NPC's that randomly attack you?

Perhaps along with a PvE mode we should include a tick-box for turning off NPC's because they waste your precious video game time?

You're not special, nor is any player that attacks you. You're just part of the game.

 

[Cosmos]

Oh come on. No one buys this damsel in distress thing. There is no mudslinging. It is well known that crab tier players live in the mud like the peasants they are. What did you think would happen if you try sticking the e-peen right into the midst of it?

I'll repeat myself, I didn't frame the term 'crap tier' players. I can see how it could be viewed as a slight. There does however appear to be a distinct bell curve of ability. Perhaps normal in any game, I might happen to be a bit better than average but the thing with ED is its not like SC2 where you need to be able to do 500 APM. So getting to a reasonable standard and competence at the game is within most people here. I'm not trying to get my gaming tackle out to prove me e-peen either.

That said I have observed a movement to have the game made easier rather than folks investing time in improving. The 2.1 AI fiasco is a pretty solid example.

 

[Martian Successor]

Have you felt you wont this argument yet? Being over sensitive is a personal problem and has nothing do with the game. Have you PVPed in the forum enough. How about we move along.

Well you're right here, I am essentially wasting my time with 'forum PvP'. But I am entitled to argue my points after all, just like anybody else, especially when they are in danger of being dragged through the muck. Definitely going to be moving on now though.

As for the virtual pixels argument you are so poorly attempting to defend, No its not the ship being blown up that makes people angry. Its how much time that they have just gotten stolen from them. I have been blown up by griefers after spending a 2 to 3 hours a day for 2 months exploring and gathering data. All to be blown away for the lolz. I got nothing for that. How was I to know that a new loophole to bypass system law was found? I wasnt around to experience the latest greatest way to ruin other peoples game. That is what makes people angry. That is only one of the many dozens of times I have been blown up for the lolz. I think since launch Code has robbed me 3 times and that was all. They didnt blow me up or run to the forums and brag. It was just a nice transaction. The rest have been interdictions with the sole intent of blowing away my ship.

Not attempting to defend it to the death, just expressing my personal opinion on it. To me, loss of pixels/loss of time is not as troubling as reading abuse being chucked at me. Doesn't mean I don't hate it when all my time and commitment over hours/days/weeks/months gets wasted in just a couple of seconds. I've been blown up for no reason as well, peed the total every loving crap out of me.

I may have come over as sounding overly heartless about the issue but I assure you I am very sympathetic to the loss of time invested. I'm one of those people who gets seriously bent out of shape if my save files get corrupted or deleted, my skin crawls even mentioning it. In the context of my reply I wanted to state that verbal/text based abuse is worse than even that.

Unfortunately it's not only pixels, it's a time related factor. Like when some people get stuck in traffic and loose their temper.

Remember that sometimes it's not hours but days of in-game time that can be wiped for no apparent reason.

You can react and take action against verbal abuse in game (or in the forum) by blocking/ignoring and reporting.

What can you do when your space pixels and your time goes boom and knowing that the perpetrator will suffer no consequences?

Very true. The act of being able to at least do something about it (like there being consequences for in-game crime such as player killing) is actually quite important. It's like having an outlet for steam to escape.

 

[Fracktal]

So why is that person special over the NPC's that randomly attack you?

Perhaps along with a PvE mode we should include a tick-box for turning off NPC's because they waste your precious video game time?

You're not special, nor is any player that attacks you. You're just part of the game.

And that's exactly the reason why the bugged AI was changed some weeks after 2.1 was released. The NPCs with Multicannon-plasma accelerator and Multicannon-rail guns, combined with the new AI, are my only ship losses in the past year.

NPCs are balanced to give you a fair chance. Otherwise that's bad game design.

Most of players hunting others do not care about giving a fair chance.

 

[sewerratuk]

So why is that person special over the NPC's that randomly attack you?

Perhaps along with a PvE mode we should include a tick-box for turning off NPC's because they waste your precious video game time?

You're not special, nor is any player that attacks you. You're just part of the game.

Totally agree with you but I think you will find that the NPCs are fully under forum control so it's a poor comparison

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

And that's exactly the reason why the bugged AI was changed some weeks after 2.1 was released. The NPCs with Multicannon-plasma accelerator and Multicannon-rail guns, combined with the new AI, are my only ship losses in the past year.

NPCs are balanced to give you a fair chance. Otherwise that's bad game design.

Most of player hunting others do not care about giving a fair chance.

NPC's are not balanced to give you a fair chance, they're balanced to clean up the crying out of the forums.

Seen it time and time again, every single time the AI gets an overhaul. As soon as the NPC's actually get balanced so that their combat rank is equivalent to their challenge, everybody who farmed their way up to Deadly or Elite combat rank by using an uber-tanked Anaconda to farm CZ's and haz-res's without actually learning anything about combat go ape, saying that because they have X amount of hours and X amount of kills that they shouldn't be challenged by Y type of NPC.

In a vaguely worded forum post. None of them bother to back the claim that there is an imbalance up with video evidence of the supposed merciless mauling they received, where they always die in seconds and didn't have a chance despite not making a single mistake because X amount of hours and X amount of kills when the NPC's are braindead = can't be wrong.

Don't get me started on the crap that happens with NPC balance. I could sit here and rip the stuffing out of teddy bears while I talk about all of the bullcrap that has been used to nuke all of the fun out of NPC's because people have one bad encounter and immediately run to shiptoast on the forums.

 

[Zambrick]

So why is that person special over the NPC's that randomly attack you?

Perhaps along with a PvE mode we should include a tick-box for turning off NPC's because they waste your precious video game time?

You're not special, nor is any player that attacks you. You're just part of the game.

Because NPCs are a knowable controlable situation. They provide a challenge and you can lose, but they can be tuned to the encounter and ship that you are in. For example if I am palling around in my Cobra MKIII I dont get Interdicted by wing of Grade 5 engineered PVP Anacondas. I might have a Vulture or FAS at best. I am only Master level combat, but that is high enough as only elite and dangerous are left.(Getting closer).

So you can fly in your ship with reasonable weapons, shielding, and armor while still fulfilling that ships role. It was only up to the latest patch that you even hope to survive in a T class ship without using your entire cargo hold for SCBs and HRs while only having a tiny bit of cargo room left.


That is the difference between an NPC and a player character.

Players min max to the point of guaranteeing their win against all but a few ship types. They control what ship types those are and they do not engage them. A.K.A. they have little to no risk for their chosen play style.

 

[sewerratuk]

And that's exactly the reason why the bugged AI was changed some weeks after 2.1 was released. The NPCs with Multicannon-plasma accelerator and Multicannon-rail guns, combined with the new AI, are my only ship losses in the past year.

NPCs are balanced to give you a fair chance. Otherwise that's bad game design.

Most of players hunting others do not care about giving a fair chance.

Can I point out irony of this statement, your only loss was a bugged AI and now it's fixed you don't lose, balance achieved

 

[Fracktal]

NPC's are not balanced to give you a fair chance, they're balanced to clean up the crying out of the forums.

No, NPCs are rebalanced not because of the crying but to accommodate the average player so they continue playing and may buy future expansion.

I'm sorry you are bitter about how the game is, but this is common sense for a game developer. They have to cater to the average player not to what YOU think is the correct balance.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Because NPCs are a knowable controlable situation. They provide a challenge and you can lose, but they can be tuned to the encounter and ship that you are in. For example if I am palling around in my Cobra MKIII I dont get Interdicted by wing of Grade 5 engineered PVP Anacondas. I might have a Vulture or FAS at best. I am only Master level combat, but that is high enough as only elite and dangerous are left.(Getting closer).

So you can fly in your ship with reasonable weapons, shielding, and armor while still fulfilling that ships role. It was only up to the latest patch that you even hope to survive in a T class ship without using your entire cargo hold for SCBs and HRs while only having a tiny bit of cargo room left.


That is the difference between an NPC and a player character.

Players min max to the point of guaranteeing their win against all but a few ship types. They control what ship types those are and they do not engage them.

If you're in a Cobra why are you getting interdicted by an Anaconda?

You realize that the interdiction mechanics make it nearly impossible to interdict small ships while flying a large ship, right? That Anaconda has to chase the target bubble at about 4 times the distance, traveling twice the speed, that you do while also having a fraction of the maneuverability right?

Balance. Even if you aren't aware that it's there, it's still there.

 

[GG7]

Sounds like those PvPers are every bit as whiney as the PvE crowd they decry.

Pretty much.

And the fact that they seem incapable of separating UNSOLICITED PVP from ORGANIZED CONSENSUAL PVP is a good deal of their problem.

If they want to get together and cost each other millions in rebuy costs, who are we to stop them? The thing is... Far too many of those guys can't get their PvP rocks off unless it involves wasting an unarmed, unwilling PvE player who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I would try to have sympathy for this crowd, but I find many of them to be self important ego maniacs with a dash of sociopath thrown in for good measure!

 

[Fracktal]

Can I point out irony of this statement, your only loss was a bugged AI and now it's fixed you don't lose, balance achieved

There is no irony. I play in Open and my fleet is set-up accordingly. My ships can fight or hold enough for me to run.

Also unlike what Windscreen-Smudge seems to imply, I'm pretty decent in playing Space Sims (All the X-wing series, Freespace, etc...).

 

[aeshec]

Soooo. I wouldn't say they are unwelcome but certain PvP'ers have jaded a large portion of the community here against PvP. In a lot of cases this isn't even because they like PvP, it's because of their attitude.

Without naming names a fair few high profile PvPers seemed to be very direct, at times aggressive and didn't tend to phrase things diplomatically. Some PvP'ers are deliberately out there to cause strife and issues and farm said salt.

The things that are important are:
1) Not all PvP'ers are like this.
2) PvE'ers have just as many people that fit the description above.

Issue is because PvP as an activity is often direct, aggressive and undiplomatic. This means the "image" has stuck which in turn means that often valid complaints and discussions by PvP'ers are often not seen as such and promptly ripped on.

Long and short of it is sadly the many decent people that engage in PvP were rapidly unable to change the image and the mindset of each side developed from there with one side being labelled as griefers and the other as carebears. Sadly the many decent humans on both sides are drowned out by the pack mentality as one side starts attacking the other side.

Me personally I hate all of them and have joined our Thargoid overlords as they fear not if their opponent is PvP or PvE, they don't even care if the player is in Open/Solo! Join the fairest faction of them all today!!

Edit: As for the record I rarely do PvP, I do a lot of co-op and I do a lot of event based things with various groups. I have joined competitions in the past and enjoyed them, I also plan to do more in the future when I get time to get in game properly again. Saying the only people that would be interested are on reddit/discord is a downright falsehood. If I wasn't swamped at work and irl I'd be looking for stuff exactly like this. Sad really that they think that.

I think this is pretty well put. At some point, I think PVE exclusive players started feeling a little miffed at being denigrated for their preference of Private Group Play and other issues that might have arisen. Anyway, in order to stay positive, I do think that everyone has to remember that there are trolls in each group that wish nothing more than to cause someone stress or to see the game population dwindle because of their actions. Perhaps a joint PVE/PVP event, as crazy as that sounds, might be an interesting beginner bridge for the community. I'm not even sure what that would look like, but sometimes the idea that seems the craziest works.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

No, NPCs are rebalanced not because of the crying but because if the game is not properly balanced to accommodate the average player so they continue playing and may buy future expansion.

I'm sorry you are bitter about how the game is, but this is common sense for a game developer. They have to cater to the average player not to what YOU think is the correct balance.

Forum shiptoaster != average player.

Pay attention next time. 2.3 should come with an AI overhaul. You'll have 5 people saying the new AI is amazing, the improvements have breathed new life into the game, don't change a thing if anything make it even tougher.

For those 5 there'll be one whiner, and the next update will take half of the new features out of the AI.

Everyone who liked the AI will beg for it to be put back in it's original state. The people who cried will ask for it to be nerfed again. No specific reason.

Half of the new tricks for the AI that still exist are nuked.

Rinse and repeat until the AI is dumb as a rock and offers no challenge or significant addition to gameplay, with completely 1-dimensional patterns.

These changes are not supported by the majority of players. Even the majority of players who find it too hard say that they enjoy the challenge and are willing to learn how to get better over having the challenge reduced.

There is nothing you can say to convince me that the AI has been adjusted to satisfy the majority of players, because I have seen the majority of people commenting on the AI ignored every time it is improved for the benefit of the game.