PvP (Open) commanders not welcome on this forum?...

[DukeIronHand]

"Sensible precaution."
Just can't help it huh? Where does this smugness come from? It's a video game.

 

[Goose4291]

And the "indirect PvP" (odd attempt at equalization to work the "only Open" agenda) of PP and the BGS will never be split into modes.

Its less of an open only agenda for me. I personally have always thought you should have had two accounts, one for solo/PG's and one for open, which is the only one which can affect these indirect pvp mechanics and cgs, so that your open mode character is built on equal risk to everyone else (rather than the retreat to solo when things arent going your way model) to try to mitigate the toxicity that we see over 'mode hiding' or 'group infiltration' and the like, particularly like i say when one side is rubbing the others nose in it to harvest salt.

I dont mind people using other modes, but ideally when i encounter them in open i want to know theyve taken the same risks i have by being an open only player.

 

[lokvette]

snip

Good post and I do agree with a lot of it, hence why I voted yes in the thread about pvpers having a sub forum, so people off the same mind set could come together and discuss how they blow away such such whilst testing a new build, mod, etc. I hit the new posts button then see what thread is what section if it is of no interest to me i dont bother reading it, so any with the label PVP would be ignored...

but that was in another thread so..

 

[Goose4291]

What is needed is non-partisanship. We don't need to have extreme views on either side, expecting them to balance out. We need moderators that simply enforce the Forums policy. That's exactly what we have. I've been around these discussions from release. The Mods do their jobs.

Those that espouse players in open getting a thicker skin, should consider doing the same in the Forums. If the majority of posters here look down on indiscriminate killing, and wish to say so, having a pro-PvP Mod wouldn't change things in the least. The majority of players here would still cry foul. Mods don't correct for ideas.

In my experience, those PvP'ers that have been made to feel uncomfortable around here are the ones that don't communicate in a respectful way, or within the rules. It is clear that the majority of posters here are not PvP-centric. That can't be controlled by the Mods. Name throwing goes both ways. Act with common courtesy and all is well. Go off into a 'get good' tirade, you'll get some backlash. This new found Forum Martyrdom has no legs. Consider it 'Sour Grapes', because they find their views in the minority.

Except they dont.

A pro pvp chap posted a sweary ship guide and was banned.
A pro pve chap posted a sweary ship review and they barely recieved a slap on the wrists.

Ive been accused of many things, including once being akin to a for UA bombing (forcing myself unconcensually on a players game) and the mods will sit on their hands, even when its reported.
If I was to rhetort even slightly similar, I'd be hit with the infraction stick.

 

[Mohrgan]

There has always been a derisive view of those that avoid Open. That's why, I believe, there are players that play in open, only to log at any sign of trouble. They play in open simply to say they do, but really they want none of the conflict. Just the bragging rights.

This feeling is driven by the unsupportable notion that open is somehow the 'authentic' mode, while the other modes are just 'tricks' and 'invulnerability hacks'. If, as a community, we could lift the shadow placed on Solo/PG and accept them as the equals they are, players wouldn't need to 'prove their mettle' by playing in open, and could sensibly find the environment they enjoy.

 

[jasonbarron]

What is needed is non-partisanship. We don't need to have extreme views on either side, expecting them to balance out. We need moderators that simply enforce the Forums policy. That's exactly what we have. I've been around these discussions from release. The Mods do their jobs.

Those that espouse players in open getting a thicker skin, should consider doing the same in the Forums. If the majority of posters here look down on indiscriminate killing, and wish to say so, having a pro-PvP Mod wouldn't change things in the least. The majority of players here would still cry foul. Mods don't correct for ideas.

In my experience, those PvP'ers that have been made to feel uncomfortable around here are the ones that don't communicate in a respectful way, or within the rules. It is clear that the majority of posters here are not PvP-centric. That can't be controlled by the Mods. Name throwing goes both ways. Act with common courtesy and all is well. Go off into a 'get good' tirade, you'll get some backlash. This new found Forum Martyrdom has no legs. Consider it 'Sour Grapes', because they find their views in the minority.

In case it seems like I'm attacking the mods, I want to be clear that I'm not. Heck, I still have fond memories of traveling to Beagle Point and participating in festivities on the far side of the galaxy with Agony Aunt & Co last spring. If I look the big picture, I feel like we have some of the best moderation on the internet. I do however think on this PvP/PvE issue there is a clear separation and I feel like their sympathies align more with Mobius which I personally find irksome.

I am forced to agree with you that PvPers as a whole are not nearly as adroit with their language skills as they are with their piloting, and in many ways provide numerous uncouth provocations for moderation to come down on them. A pity really, because many of them have a lot to share that the PvE community would greatly benefit from.

At the end of the day, I just wish there was more "meeting of the minds" going on on this forum. Obviously I like being here as you can see from my post count, and I really enjoy the company of most people from both sides of the aisle. Mostly my position could be summed up as "acute frustration"

 

[Goose4291]

These debates do make me pine for the days of the ridiculous "Imperial Slavery is still Slavery!!!" arguments

 

[Mohrgan]

Except they dont.

A pro pvp chap posted a sweary ship guide and was banned.
A pro pve chap posted a sweary ship review and they barely recieved a slap on the wrists.

Ive been accused of many things, including once being akin to a for UA bombing (forcing myself unconcensually on a players game) and the mods will sit on their hands, even when its reported.
If I was to rhetort even slightly similar, I'd be hit with the infraction stick.

I'm not even going to try and convince you of anything. I've been around, and I haven't seen what could be called any discrimination about a PvP'ers ideas. Just their language. We are at an impasse. I will say that this new-ish Martyrdom phase is pretty weak.

 

[Sole Hunter]

What has it been? 1-3 PvPers weighing in on this entire thread? Kind of underlines the original point. I've read most of the posts in this thread and even the "reasonable" posts made from the majority here have maintained the vantage point that if you PvP without express consent from your victim you've "soiled your bed/ruined it for everybody/you're a bad person/you're a griefer/you're a ganker/what you're doing is somehow wrong and you should be made to feel bad since you don't have a valid reason to destroy another CMDR harmlessly going about their own business not hurting anybody" and then use this value judgment as a means to dispense forum righteousness against the evildoers.

The bottom line is few self respecting PvPer's are going to continue being an active part of this particular community when blowing up CMDR's for no better reasons than they like to see the pretty lights is considered "bad behavior" and worthy of forum retaliation.

For instance, I personally don't believe I need a reason to blow up CMDR's beyond just having modded some new special effects on my suite of multi cannons and I want to see how quickly they take the hull down on an Asp. If that is considered "wrong" by the community, why would I feel comfortable talking about my PvP thoughts with you guys? Obviously if everyone thinks that's terrible behavior and is willing to deride it publicly, why am I going to bother sharing with you guys? And I'm sure many of you will read that, spit out your coffee and angrily begin composing a missive to the effect that I should shove off if that's my attitude, which just strengthens the point; this forum is not for PvPers. Period.

The PvP community looks at rebuys like the rest of you look at fuel costs; they are literally the cost of doing business. Insignificant. They are simply not attached to their ships and their e-pride the way the majority of non-PvPers are. A PvPer dies in battle, gets ganked by a wing (or an g Keelback with Reverberating Cascade Torps), destroyed by a suicidewinder while breaking the speed limit, or otherwise sent to the rebuy screen, they simply shrug, chalk it up to learning and move on; the idea that they would assign a negative value to this and then devote entire threads to bitterly complaining is unthinkable. The idea that you would be blown up for ANY REASON AT ALL and use that as a pedestal for negativity that permeates the bulk of the ED community is preposterous to the PvPer.

This is why I mentioned earlier that it would be helpful if there were some avidly pro PvP moderators on this forum, to help redirect the negativity and start educating people, and also to provide some much needed counterbalance from the current climate.

amen

Firstly, I've no issues with people playing this game how they want to up to a point: and thats when you start using the other modes to take part in indirect pvp (such as powerplay) against other players so as to mitiate the risk of reciprocity, more so when it becomes ridiculously OTT hateful like the Wolfberg debacle. Its a recipe in my mind for a toxic community



The closest you'll see me using terms like that is to define someone who refuses to learn from their mistakes and blames other player or the game for their woes, such as the tired flying unshielded in an open CG example.



If this is aimed at me, I'd just highlight Im primarily an open world trader, who dabbles in pvp. If you ever come to one of the community events, I'd equally say the same thing (as i have done repeatedly including once with Michael Brookes regarding the godmodding of a CG).



Again if your writing this aimed at me directly, its not about that. For me, complex and challenging games have greater longevity than something bland easy and throwaway. When people argue for easy mode changes (ai nerfs, decreased challenge and increased income with decreased outgoings) I'll argue against it for that reason. Because all that happens is everyone gets to the top tier ships super quick, it becomes boring and they leave. Best experience I had (I cant speak for yourself) was the early days when we were scrabbling to keep a eagle in the air, as opposed to now where you can go sidey to annie in less than 24hrs gametime



If your suggesting that i think people should adapt to the difficulty of the game rather than lobbying for fdev to make the game easier, youre right. However it has nothing to do with forcing people into open.

yeah i forgot about that one, gosh that was so bad from frontier....

In case it seems like I'm attacking the mods, I want to be clear that I'm not. Heck, I still have fond memories of traveling to Beagle Point and participating in festivities on the far side of the galaxy with Agony Aunt & Co last spring. If I look the big picture, I feel like we have some of the best moderation on the internet. I do however think on this PvP/PvE issue there is a clear separation and I feel like their sympathies align more with Mobius which I personally find irksome.

I am forced to agree with you that PvPers as a whole are not nearly as adroit with their language skills as they are with their piloting, and in many ways provide numerous uncouth provocations for moderation to come down on them. A pity really, because many of them have a lot to share that the PvE community would greatly benefit from.

At the end of the day, I just wish there was more "meeting of the minds" going on on this forum. Obviously I like being here as you can see from my post count, and I really enjoy the company of most people from both sides of the aisle. Mostly my position could be summed up as "acute frustration"

give me a break, english is my third language!

I think most of PVP'ers spend more time doing pew pew and less time typing in plain text, maybe PVE'ers should take some notes.

 

[GluttonyFang]

This is why I mentioned earlier that it would be helpful if there were some avidly pro PvP moderators on this forum, to help redirect the negativity and start educating people, and also to provide some much needed counterbalance from the current climate.

I would nominate myself except I don't know if I can handle the massive hate mail I will get for doing it .-.

 

[Mohrgan]

In case it seems like I'm attacking the mods, I want to be clear that I'm not. If I look the big picture, I feel like we have some of the best moderation on the internet. I do however think on this PvP/PvE issue there is a clear separation and I feel like their sympathies align more with Mobius which I personally find irksome.

I am forced to agree with you that PvPers as a whole are not nearly as adroit with their language skills as they are with their piloting, and in many ways provide numerous uncouth provocations for moderation to come down on them. A pity really, because many of them have a lot to share that the PvE community would greatly benefit from.

At the end of the day, I just wish there was more "meeting of the minds" going on on this forum. Obviously I like being here as you can see from my post count, and I really enjoy the company of most people from both sides of the aisle. Mostly my position could be summed up as "acute frustration"

Not insulting how others play would be a good start. Could "... I feel like their sympathies align more with Mobius which I personally find irksome." have something to do with it? Could the fact that the Mods seem to accept Mobius, make it more likely for you to take offense? Does your bias, against Mobius, make you see a neutral reaction, like one of bias?

Break this notion that people should live up to your standards, and break the notion that open is any more valid than a PG and you may find a way to talk about PvP without backlash from the posters here.

 

[Sole Hunter]

I would nominate myself except I don't know if I can handle the massive hate mail I will get for doing it .-.

I'd support you for this nomination. I don't think anyone else would be patient enough.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I'd support you for this nomination. I don't think anyone else would be patient enough.

Well, I might just ask Brett if there's enough people supporting the notion, worst thing he can do is say "no".

The PvP community really needs a relatively knowledgeable Pro-PvP player in this forum.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Well, I might just ask Brett if there's enough people supporting the notion, worst thing he can do is say "no".

The PvP community really needs a relatively knowledgeable Pro-PvP player in this forum.

I'd support you for this nomination. I don't think anyone else would be patient enough. +1

 

[Mohrgan]

Well, I might just ask Brett if there's enough people supporting the notion, worst thing he can do is say "no".

The PvP community really needs a relatively knowledgeable Pro-PvP player in this forum.

Why? Do you think a PvP player could interpret the Forum rules better than what we have? We need impartial, not balance on either side of the extremes. Making a PvP Mod would simply be pandering to a feeling of martyrdom that is not supported by the facts. It would just be to mollify the ginned up feelings of persecution that has developed recently. Act within the Forum rules, and you won't need a Spirit Guide.

 

[Kaa Mchorror]

Well, I might just ask Brett if there's enough people supporting the notion, worst thing he can do is say "no".

The PvP community really needs a relatively knowledgeable Pro-PvP player in this forum.

Where do I scratch my mark to support you?

 

[GluttonyFang]

Why? Do you think a PvP player could interpret the Forum rules better than what we have?

No, but a PvP player will introduce a new facet to the interpretation and execution of said rules since he/she can understand PvP elements and mindsets more readily.

We need impartial, not balance on either side of the extremes.

So you think I'm an extreme on the PvP side...?

Making a PvP Mod would simply be pandering to a feeling of martyrdom that is not supported by the facts. It would just be to mollify the ginned up feelings of persecution that has developed recently. Act within the Forum rules, and you won't need a Spirit Guide.

For a privileged class on this forum, that reads more fear than a desire for equality.

 

[Kaa Mchorror]

Why? Do you think a PvP player could interpret the Forum rules better than what we have? We need impartial, not balance on either side of the extremes. Making a PvP Mod would simply be pandering to a feeling of martyrdom that is not supported by the facts. It would just be to mollify the ginned up feelings of persecution that has developed recently. Act within the Forum rules, and you won't need a Spirit Guide.

I'm not a PvPer and these boards are biased towards PvE folk.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Why? Do you think a PvP player could interpret the Forum rules better than what we have? We need impartial, not balance on either side of the extremes. Making a PvP Mod would simply be pandering to a feeling of martyrdom that is not supported by the facts. It would just be to mollify the ginned up feelings of persecution that has developed recently. Act within the Forum rules, and you won't need a Spirit Guide.

When the pvE mods turn the blind eye for the infractions made by their friends... yes a PvP mod would bring balance to the table... i got fliped here on the forums and no mod did anything, i had to get in touch with one of them to actually have it moderated, but even so he ONLY deleted the coment and the guy walked the situation with not even a warning.

So yes a pvP mod can have a good influence on the forum.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

What are the ingame activitys of all the Forum mods anyway? Sure, I can get about an Idea from some but really, I don't even know how many mods are there. Kinda curios how people know exactly how many mods do what in game. Also curios as to why it matters, they use moderating tools in a way that you think is not according to the rules then report them, what they say in discussion does not matter.

... I mean, not saying they have nothing important to say, I hope everybody knows what I mean