PvP (Open) commanders not welcome on this forum?...

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Sorry, but if you don't see the decline in PvP users on this forum declining since launch, I don't know what to say but that you weren't paying enough attention.

I have been banned several times already, some of it was very fair judgment, but whenever it gets into the PvP/PvE issues, that fairness starts sliding off the scale, it's been getting better, I'll admit.

Gluttony, so have many pro PVE players, myself included, and I'm sure we feel the same, some were, 'yep, deserved that', some leave you thinking 'an infraction/ban for that......really?'. It is what it is, it is probably fairer than you think, let's not pretend for a second that this is the only reason many PVP'ers refer to frequent Reddit.

We've all seen the posts calling the developers, moderators and other players the most demeaning and insulting names possible on Reddit, from both sides actually, but I find it massively hypocritical for some PVP'ers to get so easily butthurt regarding what they read here considering what many of them are slinging in the opposite direction on Reddit.
 
...The one I spoke with didn't care to elaborate...

So you heard one detailess second hand story about something that may or may not have happened.

I confess I'm surprised you found a 'throw away line' so compelling, especially for someone who's obviously been very active on this very forum since February 2014.

My experience of the forums is that they are very well moderated (and yes I've been told off before), and that the debate is allowed to be pretty frank with all sides allowed to aired their views.

If the sweary rude brigade don't find themselves welcome here, then I think that's great, and long may it be the case.
 
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verminstar

Banned
I sort of agree with you its just the way you type makes people think you're being a tool, I'm a combat pilot and I agree the AI need to be harder and more challenging and I subscribe to the age old mantra of "Git Gud or Die" but saying that the way other people play the game is lesser then yours is a bit harsh. just because they aren't competitive doesn't mean they are less accomplished.

Nah man, Open is just...Open. Things can happen. Things rarely happen unless you're at a CG or something.

I'm in Open every day and I've been hostilely interdicted once in the last 12 months. I simply flew away. The number of times I see a friendly commander compared to those with bad intentions is something on the order of 200:1.

Ye misunderstand...I said I was always under the impression open was pvp mode, as in thats what the pvp players themselves were claiming. It follows the logic that if players havge the ability to shoot other players, then that is the definition of pvp mode. The line git gud or go solo was echoed by several high profile pvp players because they stated quite clearly on these very forums they werent even trying to be pirates, they were professional salt miners apparently.

I know what open is as do you...I felt that anyone with such low intelliegence as they had were probably happy living in their little fantasy world, and I would have been very selfish trying to talk sense to them. Thats like argueing with a christian that god isnt actually real and then hitting them with several awkward questions they werent able to answer because it contradicts their beliefs...Im simply not that selfish or self centered so they play their game and I play mine ^
 
Tell me honestly, do you, as a PvP player and member of the most (in)famous PvP group in this game since release, feel unwelcome in this forum?

From the very beginning, it was the carebear griefer nonsense. Griefer being shouted everywhere, carebear shouting gets banned in seconds.

Then it moved onto the Hutton Incident phase, where PvP players got a rainbow of insult despite being approved by Braben himself on Twitter for their actions.

Then from that, SDC was born, because some people got sick and tired of the attitude they get from this forum and the rampant combat logging.

Then there was the phase that The Code and SDC were synonymous for some reason when all there were was baseless accusation.

etc.

No, I don't feel welcomed on this forum as a PvP player, ever since the beginning. Coming onto this forum felt like a chore during those times, just to make sure reasonable PvP voices are heard in this forum. It's getting better, I'll admit.

Don't people usually engage in reasonable discussions with you, regardless of being in agreement with you or not?

75% of the time, I would say.

Where did that massive forum rep (the one over your avatar) came from, if forum people presumadly hate you so much and ostracize you?

It's not me that gets ostracized, it's the sentiment toward PvP at large that's problematic on this forum.

And supporting PvP on this forum makes me feel unwelcomed, I almost always have to roll my eyes and be like "Okay, what kind of insanity am I going to get thrown at for saying this despite approaching the issue relatively objectively."

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Gluttony, so have many pro PVE players, myself included, and I'm sure we feel the same, some were, 'yep, deserved that', some leave you thinking 'an infraction/ban for that......really?'. It is what it is, it is probably fairer than you think, let's not pretend for a second that this is the only reason many PVP'ers refer to frequent Reddit.

We've all seen the posts calling the developers, moderators and other players the most demeaning and insulting names possible on Reddit, from both sides actually, but I find it massively hypocritical for some PVP'ers to get so easily butthurt regarding what they read here considering what many of them are slinging in the opposite direction on Reddit.

It's no hypocritical when I despise the discrimination itself, not where it happens. I personally stay away from Reddit as much as I can because I know some of the threads there are a PvP echo chamber. I dislike echo chambers, I want to read conflicting opinion that are reasonably voiced so I know the polarizing sides of controversial issues better. It's why I have a relatively neutral stand on many issues in ED which is evident through the proposals I write.
 
Question: why is the acknowledgement that other players who have sharpened their skills on sharper edges than half-lobotimized NPC's painful for you?
I feel a need to point out that this entirely depends on where the skill requirements in a game arises from. And also that those games are build around PvP, thus of course NPC's are significantly worse at it.
Take a game like the Dark Soul Series or Bloodborne, the skill there comes from npc's.

And again, remember we are talking about griefers, meaning the people that seek the weakest targets possible, that requires even less skill then fighting npc's. I think we can all objectively agree on that.
As for the difficulty of Elite's NPC's its gotten better, then since launch that much is sure, and that was needed.
But remember, this doesn't mean that those that enjoy PvP are anymore skilled then someone else, how you apply what you learn in PvE, can easily, and drastically affect PvP fights, I mean look at youtube video's of PvP battles, it isn't like there is 'that' much of a difference.
My point is that being a "PvP"er does not automatically mean you are 'better' at the game or better at anything then someone that doesn't play PvP.
I've known plenty of people that enjoy PvE significantly more then PvP, but that in the various PvP based games they play are very very good at them, because they are good at learning and adapting skills.
 
No, I don't feel welcomed on this forum as a PvP player, ever since the beginning. Coming onto this forum felt like a chore during those times, just to make sure reasonable PvP voices are heard in this forum. It's getting better, I'll admit.

Well, i'm sure some will miss your *chuckles* and it's nice of you to come here and give a voice to the PVPers.
I think most (if not everyone) doesn't really dislike PVP, at some point an amalgam has been made between the real PVPers and the ones killing for the lolz. And it's a shame really.

edit: actually makes me think about a real situation happening right now in the world with a specific community
 
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From the very beginning, it was the carebear griefer nonsense. Griefer being shouted everywhere, carebear shouting gets banned in seconds.

Then it moved onto the Hutton Incident phase, where PvP players got a rainbow of insult despite being approved by Braben himself on Twitter for their actions.

Then from that, SDC was born, because some people got sick and tired of the attitude they get from this forum and the rampant combat logging.

Then there was the phase that The Code and SDC were synonymous for some reason when all there were was baseless accusation.

etc.

No, I don't feel welcomed on this forum as a PvP player, ever since the beginning. Coming onto this forum felt like a chore during those times, just to make sure reasonable PvP voices are heard in this forum. It's getting better, I'll admit.



75% of the time, I would say.



It's not me that gets ostracized, it's the sentiment toward PvP at large that's problematic on this forum.

And supporting PvP on this forum makes me feel unwelcomed, I almost always have to roll my eyes and be like "Okay, what kind of insanity am I going to get thrown at for saying this despite approaching the issue relatively objectively."

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It's no hypocritical when I despise the discrimination itself, not where it happens. I personally stay away from Reddit as much as I can because I know some of the threads there are a PvP echo chamber. I dislike echo chambers, I want to read conflicting opinion that are reasonably voiced so I know the polarizing sides of controversial issues better. It's why I have a relatively neutral stand on many issues in ED which is evident through the proposals I write.

I didn't intend to suggest you were being the hypocrite here GF but me, you and many other readers know who I am talking about. Those that state they hate posting here because they get called 'psychos' or 'griefers', (not on imo btw), yet at the same time they are calling people here 'carebears', 'crap' tier' and more on these forums and ten times worse and more insulting on Reddit.
 
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So you heard one detailess second hand story about something that may or may not have happened.

I confess I'm surprised you found a 'throw away line' so compelling, especially for someone who's obviously been very active on this very forum since February 2014.

My experience of the forums is that they are very well moderated (and yes I've been told off before), and that the debate is allowed to be pretty frank with all sides allowed to aired their views.

If the sweary rude brigade don't find themselves welcome here, then I think that's great, and long may it be the case.

I took his statement at face value, and was saddened that the official forum wasn't seen as the goto forum for such events as the one I linked to.

GluttonyFang has since, as spokesman, confirmed that a large part of the Open/PvP community don't feel welcome here (my words). Which I find sad also.

Open is as Open does in my book. And the Official forum should be seen as home to all who enjoy Elite: Dangerous. Apart from a few hot heads, I think most agree.
 
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Perhaps I've been playing PvP games long enough to not have a problem accepting I'm at best average. A decade of PvP has made the hierarchy clear to me in every multiplayer game ever. Unreal Tournament, Gears of War, Dota 2, Team Fortress 2, League of Legends, CS:Go, so on and so on. NPCs can fill a gap to a degree, but are really nothing more than dumb cattle to be farmed. Figure out how to exploit their programming flaws and ez credits. Mostly because the community demanded SJA's smart NPCs to be nerfed because "NPCs now too hard; can't farm in 30 seconds anymore pls nerf." So we get half lobotomized NPCs that pick fights in underequipped ships, rarely try to run to save themselves, and die with great speed. Good for farming money; bad for learning what you're doing wrong and correcting those things.
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In general I agree with this statement, though honestly I don't think it has anything to do with NPC's actually being hard, but more the gaming culture of late, people are because of how sooo many games provide instant gratification, that they complain when things aren't instant, and yes I entirely agree this happens a lot in many games and has generally ruined many good games, however I want to point out the main nerfs in Elite npc's didn't really work in that degree.

NPC running to regain shield - just drawed the fights out, since especially if you were in a slower ship they could do it near endlessly, and skill generally can't compensate against running away with how our weapon loadout works now, unless you could very quickly disable thrusters, which given how fast they ran, was impractical.

NPC's having engineer weapons - while yes this significantly made them more difficult, an NPC has several things a player does not, infinite amount of certain things amongst others, add that they could come against people who hadn't even had a chance to get engineering going, and those players could be significantly outpowered often, would limit their progression ability, overall it just wasn't helpful to the game, for players that already had engineering stuff it felt more challenging, for those that hadn't? it felt just painful and spawning was too eager with it, I do believe frontier has indicated it will return once they get it 'right'.

NPC accuracy with rail guns - It doesn't seem 'fixed' despite what patch said, but lets face it, super accurate npc's that never miss is just not fun, take GTA V as example, getting sniped by police while driving fast, because they have 100% accuracy, can be seen as a challenge, sure, but it quickly becomes eye rollingly predictable if you ask me, and disruptive to the game as a whole.

To me NPC difficulty is a balancing act.
Too easy: no fun boring you get everything easy, but some people want that.
Too hard, 100% accuracy basically computer knowing stuff because it reads your input, and isn't reacting to your actual actions from its perspective: also becomes boring, npc's that for example know exactly what you are doing because they read your input just becomes boring, predictable and at least to me isn't seen as a challenge.

The 'right'/perfect npc: would in my book be an NPC that worked with similar limitations as a player, ammo, movement causing aim to lose accuracy, basically they would be affected by everything a player is affected by, and they would according to their own skill level, react within x time, but never perfectly, they would have a reaction time, that would at best be better then humanly possible but not perfect. And they would react not from player input by from what they out of their own senses saw the player doing.
 
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Perhaps I've been playing PvP games long enough to not have a problem accepting I'm at best average. A decade of PvP has made the hierarchy clear to me in every multiplayer game ever. Unreal Tournament, Gears of War, Dota 2, Team Fortress 2, League of Legends, CS:Go, so on and so on. NPCs can fill a gap to a degree, but are really nothing more than dumb cattle to be farmed. Mostly because the community demanded SJA's smart NPCs to be nerfed because "NPCs now too hard; can't farm in 30 seconds anymore pls nerf." So we get half lobotomized NPCs that pick fights in underequipped ships, rarely try to run to save themselves, and die with great speed. Good for farming money; bad for learning what you're doing wrong and correcting those things.

It would actually be interesting to know what experience players from the various different camps here have with other games.

For me it's many thousands of hours (too many, honestly) playing FPS games in third party leagues. The perspective I've gained from that is why when PvP players in Elite (not directed at you, or anybody in particular) begin gloating over their "skill", I immediately begin getting flashbacks to pubstompers and low div trashtalkers.
 
Gluttony Fang has since, as spokesman, confirmed that a large part of the Open/PvP community don't feel welcome here (my words). Which I find sad also.

This is odd, as GluttonyFang himself, as well as several other PVPers, has always been welcome in this forum, have long post histories, some have massive forum reps, and regardless of disagreements have generally been capable of having civilised discussions with their forum peers.


I think the ones who don’t feel welcome are the ones who come here and create all those “I’m a PvPer, I’m the master race, I’ve been in the army, PvP is the one true way, have I said I’ve been in the army?… everyone should be forced into open, PVErs are all a bunch of weeners cowards carebears, etc” threads. But if those people can’t understand why they feel unwelcomed, I think they have bigger issues to be worried about.
 
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Not sure if this is a good idea or not, but what about having a PvP specific sub-forum here?
PVP players could discuss builds, setup meetings/matches, recruit, etc.
Any non-pvp discussion, even if well mannered, would be modded out (yeah, I know, the mods are probably saying "god, please no!"). Heck, maybe even recruit some new PvP-only mods.

dunno... just a thought.
 
Not sure if this is a good idea or not, but what about having a PvP specific sub-forum here?
PVP players could discuss builds, setup meetings/matches, recruit, etc.
Any non-pvp discussion, even if well mannered, would be modded out (yeah, I know, the mods are probably saying "god, please no!"). Heck, maybe even recruit some new PvP-only mods.

dunno... just a thought.

would be great
 
Not sure if this is a good idea or not, but what about having a PvP specific sub-forum here?
PVP players could discuss builds, setup meetings/matches, recruit, etc.
Any non-pvp discussion, even if well mannered, would be modded out (yeah, I know, the mods are probably saying "god, please no!"). Heck, maybe even recruit some new PvP-only mods.

dunno... just a thought.

It's been mentioned a few times already. Personally I think it's a good idea. I'm just waiting for someone to create a poll! :)
 
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I've mentioned this a few times in the past...

One of the highlight moments I recall in the game for me was back in Beta. Back then there was a single combat zone at Eranin. CMDRs would go there for PvP. I recall fighting an Anaconda in my Viper and I got damaged so shot off in a random direction to get away from the Anaconda and lick my wounds.

As I flew out, I noticed a new bunch of blips appear on my radar which soon locked into hollow squares. There in front of me 5-6 CMDRs in Vipers were flying into a wing formation before they then shot past me at full speed back towards the main combat zone... It was a beautiful thing to witness, and a hopeful shape of things to come. It was CMDRs at the very least interested and armed for PvP, taking part in PvP within a setting/mechanics the game offered to them, to easily participate in it.


Now let's roll on 2+ years, and what do I seemingly witness all too often now passing as PvP in ED? A group of CMDRs interdicting anyone/everyone they can, most likely the less willing/able they are the better, and opening fire...

The two main problems?
1) There is no easy way to participate in meaningful/consensual PvP.
2) Pointless interdiction/destruction is seemingly now considered the norm - as there is little/no alternative - and worse still, the game basically ignores it with no real penalties to deter it. Is it surprising when players just going about their business, not interested at the time in PvP, and not setup for it, who are then blown up for no real reason by other CMDRs for no real ingame reason (knowing the CMDRs in question face no real penalty) might see this as all somewhat daft?
 
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As long as you don't blame you are allowed to post your content, we just had a thread praising the good fight against CMDR XY.

Yesterday I posted a video of me interdicting a Cutter who had no shields, he instantly blew up because our ships spawned in a way that made them collide. There was no shaming or blaming him personally, I tried to use the thread and video to get people to realize that running shieldless is a bad idea. The video was removed from the post and the thread was locked.

I also posted it on reddit where there also is a naming and shaming rule, but it was kept up and got 2k views as well as sparking a lot of discussion. Do you see why I prefer posting on reddit?
 
I've mentioned this a few times in the past...

One of the highlight moments I recall in the game for me was back in Beta. Back then there was a single combat zone at Eranin. CMDRs would go there for PvP. I recall fighting an Anaconda in my Viper and I got damaged so shot off in a random direction to get away from the Anaconda and lick my wounds.

As I flew out, I noticed a new bunch of blips appear on my radar which soon locked into hollow squares. There in front of me 5-6 CMDRs in Vipers were flying into a wing formation before they then shot past me at full speed back towards the main combat zone... It was a beautiful thing to witness, and a hopeful shape of things to come. It was CMDRs at the very least interested and armed for PvP, taking part in PvP within a setting/mechanics the game offered to them, to easily participate in it.

Now let's roll on 2+ years, and what do I seemingly witness all too often now passing as PvP in ED? A group of CMDRs interdicting anyone/everyone they can, most likely the less willing/able they are the better, and opening fire...

I apparently can't rep you again...
 
Of course. But that's not the conversation taking place, nor is it what I was addressing. I was addressing the notion that people seem bothered by the fact that PvP-focused combat CMDRs are in most cases going to beat CMDRs who have been reared on nothing but NPCs in combat.
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No. That is what -you- read into the conversation. I am sorry, but no PvE player here is arguing that they'd be as good in PvP as people who regularily pursue this activity. The actual point here is that some people here use this higher proficiency in one aspect of the game to declare themselves to be generally better players and basically even better humans. Mind you, this kind of behaviour has been seen from either side of the fence, but generally it's the PvP side who's way more eager to declare themselves to be superior.
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So as long as being active in PvP just makes you better in PvP and nobody can present me conclusive evidence that it also turns you into a generally better human, i dare to say that such statements are perceived as insulting and derogatory. So the actual point of this part of the conversation actually is about something very obscure, known to only few people: manners.
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But hey probably having those makes you inferior... ?
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