Python/Class 6 thruster issue? (Devs please have a look)

[GJ51]

All I can say is that it's pretty disappointing to put a lot of time grinding to get a ship you like only to see it get crippled to satisfy a few whinners. If others think the Python is the best ship then why don't they just buy one and use it instead of raining on everyone else's parade?

I'm getting a bit tired of FD always moving the goal post.

 

[DimGook]

All I can say is that it's pretty disappointing to put a lot of time grinding to get a ship you like only to see it get crippled to satisfy a few whinners. If others think the Python is the best ship then why don't they just buy one and use it instead of raining on everyone else's parade?

I'm getting a bit tired of FD always moving the goal post.

Or why don't you just sell yours?

 

[Flyinpiranha]

Or why don't you just sell yours?

Because maybe we like it?

 

[AccidentalGenius]

After 39 pages of this maybe it is just time to get over the game... and wait for another?

I mean for new player bounty hunter it now goes like this:

Head to a RES, kill things till you can buy a Viper. Kill more things for a week, maybe 2 till you can fully fit it out.
Have some fun with PVP etc maybe, struggle to somehow play with friends. Hope for wings in maybe 2 months time?

End it there as making money from Bounty Hunting sux, and even if you can make money, for what do you need it as you already have the best ship for what you like to do...
Why pay 400 times more for something worse?

or maybe not...?

 

[graham.reeds]

All I can say is that it's pretty disappointing to put a lot of time grinding to get a ship you like only to see it get crippled to satisfy a few whinners. If others think the Python is the best ship then why don't they just buy one and use it instead of raining on everyone else's parade?

I'm getting a bit tired of FD always moving the goal post.

FD have already admitted that the stats that the Python has are incorrect, so even without balancing you were getting a reduction.

 

[Mephane]

FD have already admitted that the stats that the Python has are incorrect, so even without balancing you were getting a reduction.

To me it sounded more like all thrusters had a bug where, I think, C-rated ones are as weak as E-rated ones.

 

[Arda]

I am still going to buy one. I have never played with the non-modified version, but im sure even after the modifications the ship, for me, will still be a major upgrade.

 

[Crando]

All I can say is that it's pretty disappointing to put a lot of time grinding to get a ship you like only to see it get crippled to satisfy a few whinners. If others think the Python is the best ship then why don't they just buy one and use it instead of raining on everyone else's parade?

I'm getting a bit tired of FD always moving the goal post.

I agree, it took me a lot of time and effort to be able to buy my Python, not to mention the upgrades I had to purchase so it was a respectable multirole ship with a reasonable FSD distance and cargo space. A ship that costs as much as the Python should be a far superior ship in all aspects in relation to a cheaper ship, that's why we spend the time to make the money to buy the UPGRADED ships. Ships like a Viper or Cobra should not be able to easily destroy a ship like a Python, it should be very hard for them to do so, but a skilful pilot maybe able to win against a Python after and only after a very hard fought battle. Perhaps they should increase/modify the values on the Anaconda and other future planned ships and if necessary some of the current ships instead of reducing the Python's. Us Python owners should not be disadvantaged, we are used to what we have now, it would not be fair to us to now move the goal posts. I feel the changes that they are proposing will ruin the Python completely and make it a sitting duck for Viper's, Cobra's and maybe even Eagle's. Don't do this to us players who have spent the time and made the effort to be able to afford to buy the Python because and only because it is such a good ship the way it is.

Edit:
If I was easily destroyed by a Viper or a Cobra or an Asp for that matter I would not be very happy at all, not with a rebuy cost of 1.9+ million credits compared to a far far less rebuy cost for the Viper etc. I also own a Viper and an Eagle and will soon own a Type 9 so I can use it to grind the credits and use the Python as a fighter and explorer. I think the Viper and Eagle are great ships but I would not take on a Python or an Anaconda in one, not alone at least. They should be no match for a Python, another Python or an Anaconda should be a match for a Python and maybe a Drop Ship or a Clipper with a very good pilot but not a Viper or Cobra or Asp that cost a fraction of the higher priced ships. I took on an NPC Anaconda (I don't attack other players even if they are wanted, unless they attack me first) in my Python the other day, first time I ever tried to fight one. I managed to get it's hull down to 60% but because I was at 38% hull and no screen I decided to bug out and not try again until I further upgrade my ship with better Shields and also Shield Cells or when I buy my own Anaconda. This little mistake cost me 1.2+ million credits in repairs, the bounty was only 150k (not that I got it) so not a worthwhile adventure in my book but it's how it should be, the Anaconda is a much more expensive ship and should be much more powerful, which it seems to be based on this fire fight.

Anyway I've had my say now, I don't think you can fully understand where most of us Python owners are coming from unless you own one. Lets hope the Devs don't ruin a great ship.

 

[Dejay]

Just wanted to add the nerfing of the python couldn't come at a worst time.

It's not just a 17%, it's a 34% nerf! Maneuverability affects both your ability to hit your target and BE hit by your target. And 34% is the upper bound, it's quite possible that you get below a range that you'll NEVER HIT your opponent in a fast viper EVER!

The game doesn't even have much PVP action. Why the urgent need to balance? It's needless "activism" to change it now!

Slow is the opposite of fun. There are even studies proving this. Slow reaction time, slow speed, long waiting make any game experience worse.

Compared to the viper/cobra the 3 so called "large hardpoints" are not that much better! Try it! It's maybe a 30% boost! But what does that do when you CAN'T HIT your target?

What the game needs is more fun, not less. So why kill the golden goose? Why do the devs want players to have less fun? Why now? What is gained by this change?

The python was the perfect ship that costs insanely much. Getting it was an accomplishment. This nerf doesn't balance, it reduces this accomplishment.

While the designers nerf the python it still costs just as much to maintain (3mil+ insurance)! It was too costly to use in PVP before, now it's prohibitive. Why not improve something first before you make something worse?

Including the shield nerf that is an overall loss of 66% of combat rating! 34% reduction of combat rating through maneuverability multiplied by 33% reduction of combat rating through shield rating = 0.74 * 0.66 = 0.44. That is an INSANE nerf hammer! The python is now only a third as good as before!! Whaaaat?


Overall it just makes me sad because this is indicative of a fundamental problem with the game design team. Their "vision" of the game seems to be that they impose a kind of order on the game that suits a certain ideology or dogma ("there must be balance") but won't listen to what players say is fun. If you let ideology win over reason the results are never good!
It's really sad to see that the developers simply DO NOT listen to players. There is a long thread that players overwhelmingly did not want to see the "endgame ship" brutalized. They should do everything to make the game MORE fun not LESS fun. We don't want a "balanced" esport game right now.

And it's SOO ironic that this change comes following a statement by the dev that C6 thrusters are SUPPOSED TO BE WORSE than D6 thrusters!!! That's what they said in response to someone taking the time and measuring it! What? You "upgrade" to a more expensive thruster and that the performance gets WORSE across the board and it's "working as intended"! It was pure luck that he checked the files again! That is the amount the devs are "listening".

I don't have much faith in FD improving and balancing ED because they haven't shown so far that they know what they are doing. So many balancing things are off especially making money. But THIS is what they "fix".

/rant

 

[NettiWelho]

And it's SOO ironic that this change comes following a statement by the dev that C6 thrusters are SUPPOSED TO BE WORSE than D6 thrusters!!!

Where was this said?

 

[Dejay]

Where was this said?

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102717&p=1591966&viewfull=1#post1591966

The thrusters are working as intended. The difference in optimised masses and the mass of the ship itself when fitting various thrusters can result in non intuitive results. At the end of the day if you're more under the optimal mass then the C will provide more of a benefit than the D one. Likewise if you're over the optimal mass the C won't punish you as much as the D one will. Also the C has a higher integrity rating so that it can take more punishment before failing.

Next post: "Oops"

 

[Ragnar Lodbrok]

Did you miss the point where the Python currently has better shield rating than the Anaconda?

I got it. And I wrote "Ok, reduce it a bit, but not in this way.".

An alternative would be to increase the costs of a Python up to maybe 85 Mio (and the Clipper, too). I think, both ships are too cheap compared to other ships and their abilitys.

 

[Guyperson]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102717&p=1591966&viewfull=1#post1591966

You went back for that link yet missed Roadblock's request for a second opinion and Mike's admission only a couple posts down? The modifiers in the code were in fact wrong and the C thruster essentially had the output of the E when it isn't supposed to. When he wrote that the thrusters were "working as intended" he had no idea of the mistake he had made in the codebase.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102717&p=1592079&viewfull=1#post1592079
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102717&p=1592177&viewfull=1#post1592177
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102717&p=1592288&viewfull=1#post1592288

 

[IceyJones]

Stat dump for those that care Just remember my percentages before were rough estimates. You might find solace or despair below:

Base Shield Health 390 - 260

0 Pips to engines
Maximum Speed 160 - 140
Max Boosted Speed 280 - 220

Max Forward Acceleration 32 - 30
Max Retro Acceleration 19 - 18
Max Transverse Acceleration 19 - 16

MaxPitchRate 30 - 22
MaxRollRate 100 - 90

4 Pips to engines
Maximum Speed 250 - 200
Max Boosted Speed 330 - 280
Max Pitch Rate 38 - 27

this nerf ist totally overdone and stupid!
it changes the total behavior of the ship! it renders it totally useless for fixed weapons!

if these values are really coming. i will sell it IMMEDIATELY! no need for a try!
it is slower and less agile than the big fat Asp with this nerf!

but then, "dear" frontier, let us sell this piece of crap without the 10% loss!
i cannot afford to throw 5 million out of the window!

damn it

 

[Roadblock]

Lets wait and see how bad it really is. I've spent a LOT of time bounty hunting in my Python over the last couple of weeks so I have a good idea how effective I am against most types of targets (although, mostly Cobras and sidewinders is all I can find at RES's). I'll try to make an objective judgement about how effective the nerfed Python is once 1.1 hits, and I'll also repeat all of the tests I conducted here so we can see what effect it actually ended up having. I'm still hoping that they will at some point add a ship that bears some resemblance to the offensive performance of the current Python (strong weapons, decent maneuverability and speed).

Honestly, I think the biggest problem is going to be the reduced speed. I spend a lot of time chasing little ships around at RES or flying to where I see the police engaging a pirate.

 

[IceyJones]

Lets wait and see how bad it really is. I've spent a LOT of time bounty hunting in my Python over the last couple of weeks so I have a good idea how effective I am against most types of targets (although, mostly Cobras and sidewinders is all I can find at RES's). I'll try to make an objective judgement about how effective the nerfed Python is once 1.1 hits, and I'll also repeat all of the tests I conducted here so we can see what effect it actually ended up having. I'm still hoping that they will at some point add a ship that bears some resemblance to the offensive performance of the current Python (strong weapons, decent maneuverability and speed).

Honestly, I think the biggest problem is going to be the reduced speed. I spend a lot of time chasing little ships around at RES or flying to where I see the police engaging a pirate.

sorry....but NPC farming is NO BENCHMARK at all.....heck...you can use gimbals and turrets there! i talk about real combat!
in future, the python can only run, if it cannot use fixed + has its shield reduced by 33%, when only 2 vipers challenge it....

in future even with FA off your pitch-rate is so crap, that you never can bring your fixed beams to bear at all....the viper just needs to keep close to you....easy

-29% pitch! thats ridiculous!

so they make a 120 mil ship worth maybe 50 mil....? or even less!
its nothing more than a crap trader in future! with big guns it cannot use properly.

the last thing this game needs is another trader...

we will see so many python deaths after the nerf......it will be ridiculous.
vulture + python nerfes + shield cell nerfes = total destruction

 

[landario]

Just wanted to add the nerfing of the python couldn't come at a worst time.

It's not just a 17%, it's a 34% nerf! Maneuverability affects both your ability to hit your target and BE hit by your target. And 34% is the upper bound, it's quite possible that you get below a range that you'll NEVER HIT your opponent in a fast viper EVER!

The game doesn't even have much PVP action. Why the urgent need to balance? It's needless "activism" to change it now!

Slow is the opposite of fun. There are even studies proving this. Slow reaction time, slow speed, long waiting make any game experience worse.

Compared to the viper/cobra the 3 so called "large hardpoints" are not that much better! Try it! It's maybe a 30% boost! But what does that do when you CAN'T HIT your target?

What the game needs is more fun, not less. So why kill the golden goose? Why do the devs want players to have less fun? Why now? What is gained by this change?

The python was the perfect ship that costs insanely much. Getting it was an accomplishment. This nerf doesn't balance, it reduces this accomplishment.

While the designers nerf the python it still costs just as much to maintain (3mil+ insurance)! It was too costly to use in PVP before, now it's prohibitive. Why not improve something first before you make something worse?

Including the shield nerf that is an overall loss of 66% of combat rating! 34% reduction of combat rating through maneuverability multiplied by 33% reduction of combat rating through shield rating = 0.74 * 0.66 = 0.44. That is an INSANE nerf hammer! The python is now only a third as good as before!! Whaaaat?


Overall it just makes me sad because this is indicative of a fundamental problem with the game design team. Their "vision" of the game seems to be that they impose a kind of order on the game that suits a certain ideology or dogma ("there must be balance") but won't listen to what players say is fun. If you let ideology win over reason the results are never good!
It's really sad to see that the developers simply DO NOT listen to players. There is a long thread that players overwhelmingly did not want to see the "endgame ship" brutalized. They should do everything to make the game MORE fun not LESS fun. We don't want a "balanced" esport game right now.

And it's SOO ironic that this change comes following a statement by the dev that C6 thrusters are SUPPOSED TO BE WORSE than D6 thrusters!!! That's what they said in response to someone taking the time and measuring it! What? You "upgrade" to a more expensive thruster and that the performance gets WORSE across the board and it's "working as intended"! It was pure luck that he checked the files again! That is the amount the devs are "listening".

I don't have much faith in FD improving and balancing ED because they haven't shown so far that they know what they are doing. So many balancing things are off especially making money. But THIS is what they "fix".

/rant

Hello,


excellent Post. The developers should print this out and glue it on each each others foreheads.

Cheers

 

[Roadblock]

sorry....but NPC farming is NO BENCHMARK at all.....heck...you can use gimbals and turrets there! i talk about real combat!
in future, the python can only run, if it cannot use fixed + has its shield reduced by 33%, when only 2 vipers challenge it....

in future even with FA off your pitch-rate is so crap, that you never can bring your fixed beams to bear at all....the viper just needs to keep close to you....easy

-29% pitch! thats ridiculous!

so they make a 120 mil ship worth maybe 50 mil....? or even less!
its nothing more than a crap trader in future! with big guns it cannot use properly.

the last thing this game needs is another trader...

we will see so many python deaths after the nerf......it will be ridiculous.
vulture + python nerfes + shield cell nerfes = total destruction

I intend to fly it with exactly the same setup (mostly fixed weapons) after the nerfs, so it *will* be quite a good benchmark for me. I don't PVP in it, so I can't make any sort of comparison there, but it won't matter because guys like SubSynk will be able to give a much more informative assessment.

 

[IceyJones]

you can use fixed weapons also in a conda against NPC´s......or in a T9......AI is so bad, it makes it possible...
but in a fast paced PVP, every ° per second counts.

the combat value of the python is degraded too much by this coming nerf. as Dejay wrote.

my accomplishement to earn a python via combat is made obsolete with this nerf. and where is the reason to earn so much money via combat at all then!?
to switch back to a 3.5 million viper?! or a vulture that for sure will NOT cost 56 mil stock.....

and all because some whiners. its the same as the nerved viper in beta. slower than a cobra....LOL, yea.....that makes sense for a dedicated dogfighter....

sometimes i really must question FD´s common sense

 

[graham.reeds]

How about every other ship becomes a little bit faster, little bit harder, little bit more manoeuvrable?

Or would you rather play in a galaxy where everyone has to fly a python otherwise you haven't a hope?

I am having a hard time to see why you oppose this so much apart from you min/maxing.