Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand

thistle

T
Danquememe said:
So if I checkmate a new chess player with a scholar's mate, is that sealclubbing, or is that showing them how to play the game? Or both?
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Did they think they were playing Kerplunk? If they thought they were playing chess, then no that's clearly not sealclubbing.

Danquememe said:
What if the player had spent a bunch of time reading chess books and still fallen for it, out of plain inexperience or incompetence?
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They would have lost to a better chess player? I can't imagine they loser would be upset.

Danquememe said:
I think this is an important question to consider, and which we've discussed a bit in this thread. When is a player no longer a seal to be clubbed?

We've determined that their combat rank isn't a good guide on its own - they could be playing an alt and actually be a tremendously experienced player, despite a low combat rank. Or they could be high ranked, and all their experience is from grinding NPCs, meaning they're ill equipped to deal with an actual PVP encounter.

Likewise, the ship they're flying isn't considered a fair assessment, either, even if the ship happens to be one of the ultimate endgame ships. I've literally seen a Harmless player in a Corvette. The Corvette is unabashedly a combat ship. The definition of a combat ship. An endgame combat ship. And yet Harmless combat rank implies nearly zero combat experience.

So what defines a seal?
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Well I guess you need to make that decision yourself, I can't help I'm afraid, I don't club seals. I'm sure you could avoid it even if it meant letting the odd edge-case through your net.

Identifying them aside, do you mind if they're seals? If you're trying to educate them, surely they will benefit the most in your mind?

Danquememe said:
"Just don't be a jerk" isn't a realistic answer in the context of a game whose creator has said "making things go wrong for other people" is part of the richness and tradition of the game experience. That's a direct quote of Mr Braben from last week's livestream.
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Was he saying we should be jerks?

Danquememe said:
So, yes, these are important questions, but there are relevant things to consider. Plenty of these new players have responded quite positively to my overtures. They've even thanked me after. Are they wrong?
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Are they wrong, no. What about the others who didn't thank you, are they wrong? Do they matter?

And going back to your question re identifying a seal, you seem to be clear who they are in the quote above.
 

Danquememe

Danquememe
thistle said:
Did they think they were playing Kerplunk? If they thought they were playing chess, then no that's clearly not sealclubbing.
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So if someone is playing in Open, they understand what they're getting into - is that what you're saying?

Somewhere above you said they were playing a different game. How is that possible, if I encounter them?

thistle said:
Identifying them aside, do you mind if they're seals? If you're trying to educate them, surely they will benefit the most in your mind?
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As mentioned, I just treat all equally. Engage, text to Local, friend request after. Even if it winds up that I'm the one that's blown up, as happens on a regular basis.

The gist of the majority of responses in this thread indicated it was a better way to do ganking, and I have to agree - the experience has been improved. For me. And, apparently, for some players.

All players? I don't know. It's impossible to say, as I'm sure you can appreciate.

thistle said:
Was he saying we should be jerks?
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I suppose that's true, from a certain point of view? Sort of a theme we've been discussing here, I'd say.

thistle said:
Are they wrong, no. What about the others who didn't thank you, are they wrong? Do they matter?

And going back to your question re identifying a seal, you seem to be clear who they are in the quote above.
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I'm clear that they're a new player when they indicate to me that they are new, and that they'd appreciate some tips on gank evasion.

Until I have that interaction - no, it's hard to say.

Regardless, I treat all players equally. I interdict them - if I'm able to - and I send a friend request afterwards. I do my little copy-paste thing in Local. I provide this "voice" in answer to the critique offered in this very thread, that doing so would make the ganking act more acceptable, somehow. And, to my genuine surprise and pleasure, it does seem to be working. Just as it was said here!
 

Riverside

Riverside
Danquememe said:
We've largely avoided personal insults in this thread. Why the change?
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Because of what you wrote, that I replied to. I thought that was clear. Why do you ask? Is it not very, very obvious to you that the behaviour you describe yourself doing is acting like a tool?
 

Phisto Sobanii

Phisto Sobanii
Danquememe said:
I, for one, would be more than happy to be engaged as a "freelancer" to help with such efforts.

I suspect many do their BGS stuff in PG and Solo and I'm sure they'd be even more inclined to do so if there was some extra "attention" being paid.

But massacre missions are massacre missions and they put money in the bank and materials in the...wherever materials are held. Getting some spontaneous gonks in would just be icing on the cake.

How would I find a group like this to "work" with?
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Sup, fam?
 

Phisto Sobanii

Phisto Sobanii
Riverside said:
Because of what you wrote, that I replied to. I thought that was clear. Why do you ask? Is it not very, very obvious to you that the behaviour you describe yourself doing is acting like a tool?
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Acting like a tool in game, where the veil of fantasy supports it, is a lot different than acting like a tool out of the game.

Like, say, doing it on this explicitly out of character not fantasy forum.
 

Phisto Sobanii

Phisto Sobanii
Riverside said:
And people will judge you.
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They're a bit silly if they do it to the former situation. I mean, do you get mad in Monopoly when someone charges you rent for landing on their property? Do you rail against capitalism and slap them with The Communist Manifesto because they are acting like a slumlord?

No, of couse not. Why do it in Elite to people playing a villain? It's just stupid.
 

Riverside

Riverside
Phisto Sobanii said:
They're a bit silly if they do it to the former situation. I mean, do you get mad in Monopoly when someone charges you rent for landing on their property? Do you rail against capitalism and slap them with The Communist Manifesto because they are acting like a slumlord?

No, of couse not. Why do it in Elite to people playing a villain? It's just stupid.
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Well you might think they are being a bit silly, but they might think you are being a bit silly.

Throughout this thread people have been fairly careful to distinguish between ganking and griefing. But re-read it, and every time griefing is used, substitute 'acting like a tool'. And every time ganking is used, substitute 'doesn't know when to stop'. And maybe you'll understand :)

You are judged by your actions, not everyone separates in-game actions from the player performing those actions. They don't have to follow your rules any more than you have to follow theirs (like not blowing them up because they are an explorer with no interest in the local BGS for example). I try to help people, sometimes I help people that other people think I shouldn't have helped, and I have to deal with that too.

You are judged by your actions, and there are consequences for that. Sometimes it's positive (you make a friend), sometimes it's not (you annoy the wrong person & it escalates).

I really, really wish you could grasp this basic premise that you play your way, they play theirs. I try to accommodate others, sometimes it fails but I do try. Nobody has to accommodate me though, and I absolutely would not argue that they should, as you seem to be.
 

thistle

T
Danquememe said:
Somewhere above you said they were playing a different game. How is that possible, if I encounter them?
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No, I don't believe you don't understand the point I was making.

Danquememe said:
As mentioned, I just treat all equally. Engage, text to Local, friend request after. Even if it winds up that I'm the one that's blown up, as happens on a regular basis.
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Okay, so as that was in response to my "do you mind if they are seals" question, I take it the answer is no you don't.

Danquememe said:
I suppose that's true, from a certain point of view? Sort of a theme we've been discussing here, I'd say.
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No it's not true, at no point did Braben tell you to be a jerk. We're all free though to be one, or not.

Danquememe said:
I'm clear that they're a new player when they indicate to me that they are new, and that they'd appreciate some tips on gank evasion.
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I find this an amazing sentence for some reason, it tickles me. The Nelson Muntz gambit.
 

VR Roxydog

V
Mr Dan Q - I really don't think you or any ganker should be justifying or apologising your playstyle as it really fits in well with the Elite universe - it's a very nasty place in there. You just have to look at the missions even the nice guys give - all murder and destruction haha!

You have modified your playstyle already which is also excellent as you've found out - so evolving your and others experiences in the game to the better.

I personally can't gank or attack anyone as that is my playstyle and wouldn't ask anyone to modify their ingame behaviour - how boring would that be!

I said before I didn't like gankers and just to clarify that statement, it is an ingame dislike - much as I dislike pirates who try and steal my stuff - their kids WILL go hungry.

Keep up the good ganking.
 

Phisto Sobanii

Phisto Sobanii
Riverside said:
Silly is just a polite way of saying stupid, or acting like a tool. There's no functional difference & I only used the word because you used it.
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Stop worrying about being polite and clearly communicate what you mean. You're just wasting everyone's time.

I'm going to go ahead and pluck out the most relevant bit from your previous post to drive my point home.

Riverside said:
You are judged by your actions, not everyone separates in-game actions from the player performing those actions.
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If you can't separate in-game actions from the player grow up and go do something else. Seriously, it's pathetic.
 

Riverside

Riverside
Phisto Sobanii said:
Stop worrying about being polite and clearly communicate what you mean. You're just wasting everyone's time.

I'm going to go ahead and pluck out the most relevant bit from your previous post to drive my point home.



If you can't separate in-game actions from the player grow up and go do something else. Seriously, it's pathetic.
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I've never met you in game, and the only stuff I know about you is what I've read on this forum. Written by you, outside of the game.

That you think others are pathetic is you judging these hypothetical people who would think this way.

This is really basic stuff Phisto, kids learn this at primary school. They learn about consent too.
 

thistle

T
Phisto Sobanii said:
What exactly do you think "making things go wrong for others" makes you to the vast majority of this storied community?

I guess words don't mean anything anymore.
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Oh I'm quite sure he meant PVP, BGS player factions, Powerplay. Don't you think?

You think he meant seal clubbing and "being a jerk"? Is being a jerk something to aspire to?

This is probably the best rationalisation so far though. Braben supports being a jerk, we can prove it with a video where he ... doesn't say you should be a jerk. Conclusive.
 
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