Relative Mouse mode

[Nadreck]

I've seen comments stating that the ship stabilises if you stop moving the mouse in relative - which is false, but a common misconception.

If you let go of a joystick, it will return to the central position. In FA-On, this cancels the ship's rotation. In FA-Off, it doesn't.

If you let go of the mouse in relative and FA-Off, it doesn't cancel the rotation. Therefore the claim that it's equivalent to using a joystick in FA-On is simply false.

I understand the point that the joystick user has to go back past the central point to begin applying opposite thrust, and the relative-mouse user does not (because there is no "central point"), but that is a separate argument.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

I've seen comments stating that the ship stabilises if you stop moving the mouse in relative - which is false, but a common misconception.

No one's saying that

If you let go of a joystick, it will return to the central position. In FA-On, this cancels the ship's rotation. In FA-Off, it doesn't.

This makes returning to the central position marginally more intuitive as the springs pressure guides you. It's not a major factor of the control scheme. No one's repeatedly taking their hand off the stick in combat.

If you let go of the mouse in relative and FA-Off, it doesn't cancel the rotation. Therefore the claim that it's equivalent to using a joystick in FA-On is simply false.

How often do you let go of the mouse in combat? All you have to do is move it back to the central position and your rotational vector is cancelled. This is exactly the same as with FA On and relative mouse off

I understand the point that the joystick user has to go back past the central point to begin applying opposite thrust, and the relative-mouse user does not (because there is no "central point"), but that is a separate argument.

That isn't a seperate argument, it's the entirety of what is supposed to make rotational control in FA Off difficult by design.

Please explain how Relative mouse FA Off is different from non-relative mouse FA On from a rotational input perspective

 

[Nadreck]

The difference is obvious. In FA-On, you can stop rotating by stopping mouse movements. In FA-Off, you must apply a counterthrust.

The point is that "moving back to the central position" is easier with a joystick than with a mouse. This would have left the mouse pilot at a disadvantage in FA-Off. Whether relative-mouse overcompensates for this disadvantage is debatable. For precision, maybe: for "throwing your ship around", maybe not.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

The difference is obvious. In FA-On, you can stop rotating by stopping mouse movements.

That's just plain incorrect. In non-relative mouse FA On (the preferred means of rotation that OP wants a toggle to return to), if you move your mouse forward and hold it there, you continue rotating until you recenter the mouse.

The point is that "moving back to the central position" is easier with a joystick than with a mouse. This would have left the mouse pilot at a disadvantage in FA-Off. Whether relative-mouse overcompensates for this disadvantage is debatable. For precision, maybe: for "throwing your ship around", maybe not.

If moving your mouse back to a central position is so difficult,why does everyone who uses FA On use that method of control, and why do relative mouse exploiters want a toggle to return to that method

 

[daman]

as KB+M user, have to admit FA OFF relative mouse is absolute cheat mode for FA-off flying, absolutely ridiculous how accurate you can be using FA-OFF with fixed weapons

edit: the fact that I could pretty much master it within fifteen-thirty minutes of practise just highlights this. and I am prob a below-avg to avg pilot at best

 

[Arguendo]

That's just plain incorrect. In non-relative mouse FA On (the preferred means of rotation that OP wants a toggle to return to), if you move your mouse forward and hold it there, you continue rotating until you recenter the mouse.

If moving your mouse back to a central position is so difficult,why does everyone who uses FA On use that method of control, and why do relative mouse exploiters want a toggle to return to that method

Thanks for explaining this so succinctly. It's a debate that has been ongoing since forever, and us HOTAS users keep being told that it's all a matter of practice, not control method. Well, there's a reason why you can count the top tier PvPers who also uses HOTAS/HOSAS pretty much on one hand. The vast majority are KBM users...for a reason.

For my part, it's a bit sad that when choosing a HOTAS as the input method for what is basically a flight sim, you are for all intents and purposes gimping yourself at the highest levels of combat. I say remove the relative mouse option entirely, and bring the HOTAS to the forefront where it belongs

PS: Nice to see you back btw. Been a while.

 

[DukeOnSteroids]

Good to see some fellow stick user jumping in and explain it much better than i could. [up]

If you let go of a joystick, it will return to the central position. In FA-On, this cancels the ship's rotation. In FA-Off, it doesn't.

No one talked about that.

If you let go of the mouse in relative and FA-Off, it doesn't cancel the rotation. Therefore the claim that it's equivalent to using a joystick in FA-On is simply false.

Its not false. A complete step is missing in your logic and that is because your relative mouse control does it for you and you have never to think about it.

If a stick-user wants to re-center, there is a chance to over-correcting the move to the center. Its not like that i let the joystick go for auto-centering (like you do, simply by rest your mouse and doing nothing), its a fluid motion. Your controlling is more like: fluid, hard break, fluid, hard break...(you never overcompensate your movement to re-center). Get it?

I understand the point that the joystick user has to go back past the central point to begin applying opposite thrust, and the relative-mouse user does not (because there is no "central point"), but that is a separate argument.

It is not seperate, it goes hand in hand.

Did not say i want to get rid of relative mouse, because 5% of the players would play the game then. Not so healthy for the game. Frontier did it to make it comfortable for mouse users. But please remember: It is not the same skill level.

And btw... i could have start my first post with your words "Here we go again" too. Relative Mouse Toggle... here we go again.

The first thing most players do is to skip the combat tutorials and switch roll to yaw. Again, it destroys the game feeling and combined with that mentioned micro-gimballing-effect it is a bit like cheating and playing a fps-shooter (with scripted headshots). Please face it.

And what.. do you roll with your mouse or do you press some digital buttons (0 or 1)? I guess you pitch and yaw with mouse. [yesnod][squeeeee]

Just try all axes analog.. a whole new dimension of flying your ship. It deserves it.

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@cmdrrdmc: Throttle and then mouse. That is really blasphemy. [where is it]

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Just a side note: I suppose if frontier do a step back (again, not my intention) and get rid of relative-mouse-support, then 99% of ganking would be gone too.

 

[DukeOnSteroids]

lol.. ninja'd multiple times =)

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

99% of ganking would be gone too.

Gankers would gank with an abacus if necessary

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Thanks for explaining this so succinctly. It's a debate that has been ongoing since forever, and us HOTAS users keep being told that it's all a matter of practice, not control method. Well, there's a reason why you can count the top tier PvPers who also uses HOTAS/HOSAS pretty much on one hand. The vast majority are KBM users...for a reason.

For my part, it's a bit sad that when choosing a HOTAS as the input method for what is basically a flight sim, you are for all intents and purposes gimping yourself at the highest levels of combat. I say remove the relative mouse option entirely, and bring the HOTAS to the forefront where it belongs

PS: Nice to see you back btw. Been a while.

The whole truth and nothing but, get rid of relative mouse hack.

 

[jasonbarron]

With Relative Mouse FA Off keyboard & mouse flight all you get is increased accuracy for aiming your reticule, not flying overall, but as far as I'm concerned it is more than balanced by the inherent clumsiness associated with inputing all of your controls with a keyboard for everything else. The people crying "exploit" and "hack" seem kind of whiny to me tbh.

If your stick is calibrated properly it auto centers as soon as you let go--all relative mouse does is mimic that inbuilt capability to make it fair. Try again, guys. And Grape, before we start talking "exploits" lets have a discussion about the use of seekers in 1v1's, ok? You want to start going off about exploits that kind of implies that you aren't above using something to gain an advantage that isn't exactly skill based.

 

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

The "relative mouse" option just simulates an already existing function that's built into joystick. Just like with a stick, it returns you back to the centre when you stop putting in input. Anybody who thinks this is an exploit deserves a slap on the nutz.

 

[nanite2000]

The whole truth and nothing but, get rid of relative mouse hack.

If someone can post a video showing KBM with FA-OFF and relative mouse movement disabled, demonstrating a level of control that makes it a viable option, then I will believe ‘relative mouse’ is a ‘hack’.

Besieger offered to post a tutorial video months ago because he thought it was easy too. The video never materialised.

So, the proof is in the pudding. Actually play the game with KBM, FA-OFF, and relative mouse disabled. Then tell us that relative mouse mode is a ‘hack’.

 

[jasonbarron]

If someone can post a video showing KBM with FA-OFF and relative mouse movement disabled, demonstrating a level of control that makes it a viable option, then I will believe ‘relative mouse’ is a ‘hack’.

Besieger offered to post a tutorial video months ago because he thought it was easy too. The video never materialised.

So, the proof is in the pudding. Actually play the game with KBM, FA-OFF, and relative mouse disabled. Then tell us that relative mouse mode is a ‘hack’.

The only people crying hack are those wanting to have their preferred method become the only viable one.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

As probably every mouse+keyboard user knows, switching between FA-on and FA-off is quite a pain because we can currently only change the mouse mode via the controls-menu, which is pretty useless when you want to spontanously use FA-off as a combat tactics.

To clarify things for players who never played with keyboard and mouse:
- FA-off is unplayable with normal mouse mode
- FA-on is unplayable with relative mouse mode

so whenever we want to switch between FA-on and off we have to change two options in the controls menu beforehand in order to be able to control our ships.

FD has been repeatedly asked to implement a button to toggle mouse-mode or even automatically switch mouse mode upon switching FA mode, but after 4 years we still don't have it

Did anyone figure out a way around this? Maybe a third party tool or whatever which can be used to automate the process?

Also FDev... please take note of the need for a toggle, thanks

^this

I would love to have a mouse toggle hotkey. Would make life so much easier.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

If someone can post a video showing KBM with FA-OFF and relative mouse movement disabled, demonstrating a level of control that makes it a viable option, then I will believe ‘relative mouse’ is a ‘hack’.

Besieger offered to post a tutorial video months ago because he thought it was easy too. The video never materialised.

So, the proof is in the pudding. Actually play the game with KBM, FA-OFF, and relative mouse disabled. Then tell us that relative mouse mode is a ‘hack’.

Did you not see the vid I posted? I already docked on my 3rd try. I'm not gonna spend hundreds of hours learning an entirely new control method just to prove you wrong

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

I get that people don't want to admit their choice of control method aids them, sort of like admitting ur not so gud as it were.

The plain fact is the relative mouse mouse gives you quicker more precise recentering then stick and also gives the pin point accuracy of a laser alongside, a clear advantage. Otherwise as Arguendo said above the vast majority of pvp focused players wouldn't choose it.

 

[nanite2000]

The plain fact is the relative mouse mouse gives you quicker more precise recentering then stick and also gives the pin point accuracy of a laser alongside, a clear advantage. Otherwise as Arguendo said above the vast majority of pvp focused players wouldn't choose it.

If you removed relative mouse mode, then HOTAS users would have a clear advantage over mouse users in FA-OFF mode.

QED.

 

[Morbad]

I do think relative mouse is more advantageous for FA-Off aiming than almost any stick, but it's not a hack, cheat, or exploit as the relative mouse functionality is quite deliberate and intended.

It's gamepad users that get the real short end of the stick anyway. I'm positively astounded at what some people seem to be able to do with only a dozen buttons, a couple of analog triggers with maybe a centimeter of travel, and two turd-level sticks that are worse versions of my thruster ministick.

Ultimately, if I found using a stick to be overly disadvantageous, I'd use my mouse.

it is more than balanced by the inherent clumsiness associated with inputing all of your controls with a keyboard for everything else.

Using a mouse in one hand doesn't imply using a keyboard in the other.

If someone can post a video showing KBM with FA-OFF and relative mouse movement disabled, demonstrating a level of control that makes it a viable option, then I will believe ‘relative mouse’ is a ‘hack’.

Besieger offered to post a tutorial video months ago because he thought it was easy too. The video never materialised.

So, the proof is in the pudding. Actually play the game with KBM, FA-OFF, and relative mouse disabled. Then tell us that relative mouse mode is a ‘hack’.

Regardless of the viability of the modes, those calling relative mouse a 'hack' would likely consider the fact that it's dramatically more difficult to achieve a similar level of control without it than with it a supporting argument, not a counter to their position.

In terms of the mouse mode more analogous to stick use, it's the standard option, not relative. Neither mode is perfectly equivalent, of course, but the motions I'm making and the sort of compensation/correction required are much closer to standard mouse.

If you removed relative mouse mode, then HOTAS users would have a clear advantage over mouse users in FA-OFF mode.

With a good stick, probably.

 

[nanite2000]

Did you not see the vid I posted? I already docked on my 3rd try.

Yes, I saw it. It was painful to watch. Slow and cumbersome.

You tried it yourself. Did it feel good? Did it feel natural? Did you think you could use it as a viable long-term control method? In PVP?

If not, why not?

I'm not gonna spend hundreds of hours learning an entirely new control method just to prove you wrong

The fact that you think it would take hundreds of hours to master this control method is the reason people say it's not viable. *No one* wants to spend hundreds of hours learning a control system.

Any intuitive and desirable control system would not take hundreds of hours to master.

Why would anyone put themselves through that?