I wouldn't drive my car with a PS4 controller either but this is y'know... a game.
Relative Mouse mode
- Thread starter Bortas
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I wouldn't drive my car with a PS4 controller either but this is y'know... a game.
TheMegaTurnip
Banned
Actually they have been known to be adapted for this exact purpose to allow amputees to drive, so technically they are used to drive.
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So let me get this straight. I always thought that the relative mode when in fa-off with mouse was just the same thing like resting the stick where it re-centers itself, without registering any counter moving in fa off.
So what some people say here is, that relative mouse mode also adds the needed counter action when resting the mouse???
So if i am not moving the ship at all and put fa-off with relative mode and i give a small push forward to the mouse with my finger, then the ship will NOT spin forever? Lol i must try this. If this is true then it explains alot.
So what some people say here is, that relative mouse mode also adds the needed counter action when resting the mouse???
So if i am not moving the ship at all and put fa-off with relative mode and i give a small push forward to the mouse with my finger, then the ship will NOT spin forever? Lol i must try this. If this is true then it explains alot.
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TheMegaTurnip
Banned
Basically it's FA off, but FA on.
Hence my comment about it being for newbs.
Same as joystick curves. People just need to train that finesse as opposed to getting thier Pc to do the difficult bits for them.
TheMegaTurnip
Banned
Bloody well should be though xD
What control method do you use, Turnip?
Yes please, the game should have had the option to set the preferred control scheme per flight mode from the beginning.
Is this really what happens ?
If so then would it not be best to give Jstick the same software choice, so that placing the Jstick in the rest position applies the counter movement.
If that defeats the object of FA-Off then remove the option for the mouse also.
Relative vs Absolute mouse input is what a HOTAS/joystick has by default
The microgimbal effect is there for any input user to at least have a chance at hitting modules at a distance. Which arguably is easier to do in FA-off, due to independent rotation and movement vectors.
Mouse absolute is equivalent to "holding the stick in a certain phyiscal position".
Mouse relative is equivalent to "tapping the stick in a certain phyiscal direction, then easing off the physical pressure to let the spring center the stick".
So mouse input users wanting to toggle between absolute and relative is a rational request for the full range of input that joystick/HOTAS input users have by default due to the physical design of their input device.
And it's this "leveling of the playing field" that seems to trigger joystick/HOTAS users. Not just on this forum; from hearsay I get the impression this thread's very civil compared to the mouse-phobic outrage on the Star Citizen forum.
Joystick users have a massive advantage over controller and mouse users because they have innate haptic/tactile feedback on what heir current input is at.
Controller and mouse users don't have that; they need to pay attention to (and get distracted by) a visual widget on screen if they want to have some feedback.
Not to mention that mouse users have physical drift of their input device due to the way the mouse device physically works, regardless if it's working in absolute or relative mode.
And a HOTAS, or just a joystick, does not have that issue; it's physically locked in place, does not move around when operated, and always has physical maximums that it operates at and the user can sense during operation.
And that physical drift that a mouse device is subject to is one of the reasons (especially in hectic combat, with things like sidestrafing and rolling, where mouse gameplay isn't as simple as "move the nose of the ship up a tiny bit during undocking") that there's plenty of difficulty curve in "getting good" with a mouse in FA-off even if you allow toggling between relative/absolute mouse input.
In fact, mouse users in both relative and absolute mode have issues with no physical restraints on the input maximum; typically causing varied physical device maximum overshoots - which makes the "it's so easy to just physically move your mouse back" argument null and void.
In absolute mouse FA-on, players used to use Headlook as a way to center mouse input. Nowadays, three years later, it seems there's a seperate key binding option specifically for centering the mouse.
So progress is being made in not sabotaging people's chosen input method.
And finally; since a HOTAS is congruent with the way ships are being piloted in-game in-character, it's really the only way to go if you want to enjoy VR.
Fact is, each input method has pros and cons.
But to purposefully and vindictively want to sabotage another input method, or keep it gimped, because it's not your chosen one; territorialism kicking in and you feeling some kind of input-envy...
The microgimbal effect is there for any input user to at least have a chance at hitting modules at a distance. Which arguably is easier to do in FA-off, due to independent rotation and movement vectors.
Mouse absolute is equivalent to "holding the stick in a certain phyiscal position".
Mouse relative is equivalent to "tapping the stick in a certain phyiscal direction, then easing off the physical pressure to let the spring center the stick".
So mouse input users wanting to toggle between absolute and relative is a rational request for the full range of input that joystick/HOTAS input users have by default due to the physical design of their input device.
And it's this "leveling of the playing field" that seems to trigger joystick/HOTAS users. Not just on this forum; from hearsay I get the impression this thread's very civil compared to the mouse-phobic outrage on the Star Citizen forum.
Joystick users have a massive advantage over controller and mouse users because they have innate haptic/tactile feedback on what heir current input is at.
Controller and mouse users don't have that; they need to pay attention to (and get distracted by) a visual widget on screen if they want to have some feedback.
Not to mention that mouse users have physical drift of their input device due to the way the mouse device physically works, regardless if it's working in absolute or relative mode.
And a HOTAS, or just a joystick, does not have that issue; it's physically locked in place, does not move around when operated, and always has physical maximums that it operates at and the user can sense during operation.
And that physical drift that a mouse device is subject to is one of the reasons (especially in hectic combat, with things like sidestrafing and rolling, where mouse gameplay isn't as simple as "move the nose of the ship up a tiny bit during undocking") that there's plenty of difficulty curve in "getting good" with a mouse in FA-off even if you allow toggling between relative/absolute mouse input.
In fact, mouse users in both relative and absolute mode have issues with no physical restraints on the input maximum; typically causing varied physical device maximum overshoots - which makes the "it's so easy to just physically move your mouse back" argument null and void.
In absolute mouse FA-on, players used to use Headlook as a way to center mouse input. Nowadays, three years later, it seems there's a seperate key binding option specifically for centering the mouse.
So progress is being made in not sabotaging people's chosen input method.
And finally; since a HOTAS is congruent with the way ships are being piloted in-game in-character, it's really the only way to go if you want to enjoy VR.
Fact is, each input method has pros and cons.
But to purposefully and vindictively want to sabotage another input method, or keep it gimped, because it's not your chosen one; territorialism kicking in and you feeling some kind of input-envy...
Correct.
Incorrect, the ship will spin forever. Some people believe otherwise, but they are wrong. Some others know that this auto-counterthrust does not happen, but still believe that relative-mouse FA-Off gives an unfair advantage regardless of that.
FA-Off without relative mouse (or some equivalent centering system) would be somewhat like removing the springs that cause a joystick to return to the central position (though not exactly, because the joystick would still have a well-defined central position, even without the springs holding it there). I'm not aware of any HOTAS pilot who has decided to eliminate the "crutch" of spring-loading.
As probably every mouse+keyboard user knows, switching between FA-on and FA-off is quite a pain because we can currently only change the mouse mode via the controls-menu, which is pretty useless when you want to spontanously use FA-off as a combat tactics.
To clarify things for players who never played with keyboard and mouse:
- FA-off is unplayable with normal mouse mode
- FA-on is unplayable with relative mouse mode
so whenever we want to switch between FA-on and off we have to change two options in the controls menu beforehand in order to be able to control our ships.
FD has been repeatedly asked to implement a button to toggle mouse-mode or even automatically switch mouse mode upon switching FA mode, but after 4 years we still don't have it
Did anyone figure out a way around this? Maybe a third party tool or whatever which can be used to automate the process?
Also FDev... please take note of the need for a toggle, thanks
It is only a pain if you use "yaw" on your mouse. Using "roll" on mouse allows toggle between FA-on/off easy to use.
Does not invalidate the need for a toggle button though.
Relative mouse is auto-centering, so if you have a linear mouse input/no mouse acceleration, moving the mouse back where it you started will apply a similar magnitude of counter thrust as you applied with the initial movement.
It's not hard to test yourself. Just turn on relative mouse and turn FA Off, then pitch up. If you stop at the end of that movement, your thrusters will stop firing and you will continue to rotate, just as if you eased your stick back to center. If you then move the mouse back where you started, you'll then cancel the bulk of your rotation.
With either a stick or non-relative mouse, you have to compensate more, because the center isn't moving with you.
If we had relative JStick option, then to get the same results JStick would need move up say, then hold position for a bit, then return to center to correct the movement.
Sounds like a nice option, can we have the same options as the mouse please Fdev.
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I think there is some confusion about what is or isn't being claimed.
The claim made by some people (in previous threads) is that ceasing to move the mouse will bring the ship's rotation to a halt. This is incorrect, a counterthrust must be applied.
As Morbad said, moving the mouse back the other way by the same amount will provide the counterthrust. That's because relative mouse simulates a joystick's ability to move back to the central point, so you're then moving "the other way".
So it's pretty much equivalent to the "crutch" of an auto-centering joystick. Removing it (or restricting access to it) leaves the mouse user at a disadvantage: a situation apparently desired by some joystick users.
The claim made by some people (in previous threads) is that ceasing to move the mouse will bring the ship's rotation to a halt. This is incorrect, a counterthrust must be applied.
As Morbad said, moving the mouse back the other way by the same amount will provide the counterthrust. That's because relative mouse simulates a joystick's ability to move back to the central point, so you're then moving "the other way".
So it's pretty much equivalent to the "crutch" of an auto-centering joystick. Removing it (or restricting access to it) leaves the mouse user at a disadvantage: a situation apparently desired by some joystick users.
Nope, I would be fine with a relative Jstick option same as the mouse.
I dont think its ok to penalise either the mouse users or the Jstick users or even controller users.
And Atm the Jstick seems penalised.
This is one observation I disagree with.
A joystick is much more like non-relative mouse, indeed it's one of the reasons I found the mouse control in games like Freelancer, Strike Suit Zero, or ED's standard mouse, initially more intuitive than ED's relative mouse.
A stick may return to center when you release it, but relative mouse is the equivalent of the base of the stick trailing the stick around the table. Returning to the starting point is more than the return to null input. A stick, or non-relative mouse provides more feedback as to the input one is giving (as you can see or feel the control displacement more easily), but relative mouse makes it easier to counter inputs.
This really should be a toggle with FA off/on by now. Yet again another failure on Frontiers part.
The game doesn't actively penalize stick/gamepad users, the mouse simply has a mode that reduces some of the difficulty in controlling FA Off rotation.
I'm not sure a "relative joystick" option would achieve a similarly useful effect (though I suppose I could use my stick to emulate a mouse and see what happens), as there are fundamental differences between these controls.
Well, the analogy isn't perfect, but of course the reason why the central point needs to "trail the stick around the table" is beacuse otherwise the user can lose track of where it is: the mouse moves, the joystick does not. For the joystick user, the central point is always just a wrist-flick away, and the spring-loading will even take him back to it with no effort required at all.
What's ironic about this is that Frontier provided an entirely separate centering method in FA-On, a hotkey which instantly sets the current position of the mouse to be the new central position - and then they disabled it for FA-Off. And then introduced a different method of achieveing the same result (relative mouse).
What's ironic about this is that Frontier provided an entirely separate centering method in FA-On, a hotkey which instantly sets the current position of the mouse to be the new central position - and then they disabled it for FA-Off. And then introduced a different method of achieveing the same result (relative mouse).
Please let me know if you test this and what you did as I would like a mode that reduces some of the difficulty in controlling FA-Off Rotation.
Without having to mothball the Jstick designed with Elite dangerous in mind. in favour of using a mouse.