Remember kids, C&P only helps those who can help themselves

[Morbad]

You'll have to excuse the video title, it was almost 9am and I was deliriously tired, plus more than a little surprised that I didn't manage to shoot any of the police or otherwise turn them hostile in this encounter. I thought about changing it, but I wanted a record of how bad my sense of humor really is, for posterity.

[video=youtube;TAFB_2Necjc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAFB_2Necjc[/video]

Thought about posting this in the PvP sub-forum, but since I'm using it as an example of the comical state of C&P, general seemed appropriate.

Anyway, some setup...

I had just switched back to my Corvette (after becoming thoroughly disgusted with the Challenger I wasted three days working on, but that's another story) and was engaged in some relaxing public wing PvE at the CG, specifically the HAZ RES nearest the station. On the way back to turn in my vouchers, I see a Chieftain with some frags and PAs who looks like he's spoiling for a fight. So, I decide to give him the opportunity to interdict my vessel, which he does. Fight ensues.

I don't recall whether I simply forgot to check my set crimes setting, or consciously decided not to turn it off when I saw my opponent was part of a wing. Regardless, my report crimes was on, and the police eventually trickled in.

Now these police...they see what's going on, but they proceed to try to scan everyone to see just how wanted they are before engaging; the first two even jump away without doing anything! When they finally come back in farce, they do sod all until about half way into a seventeen minute fight. By the end, they have probably just barely tipped the balance enough for my CMDR to not have to be the one that finally disengages.

I know C&P is more a consequence thing than a prevention thing, but one might expect the response time for meaningful intervention, within farting distance of a starport, to be somewhat less...even in a 'medium' security system.

TLDR -- Non-ATR NPC security are a bunch of Supertrooper wannabees and if you can't defend yourself for a quarter hour, they aren't going to help.

Also, for those who don't think there was any motive for this attack on my CMDR, I distinctly recall Kaim being in the RES I was hunting in and we were competing for the same 'thermic alloy' material drops (they were mostly from my kills, but still). Not that anyone needs any motive beyond the entertainment value I strive to provide.

 

[Aashenfox]

Great fight. Thanks for the vid. What was it you didn't like about the Challenger? I was about to build one...

 

[Morbad]

What was it you didn't like about the Challenger? I was about to build one...

Seemed like it would be a solid duelist, but in my initial PvE testing it proved exceptionally vulnerable to critical module damage when faced with attacks from multiple vectors. Thrusters in particular seemed overly exposed. It's also relatively slow, drifty, and is underpowered for hybrid setups that need to keep the shield generator, FSD, and thrusters working through PP malfunctions.

I wasn't expecting to like it as much as the FDL or Krait, but to my surprise I found it to be worse than even the Crusader for my play style.

 

[Riverside]

Good vid, entertaining & well done to all three. Don't really care about the title beyond being thankful it wasn't just click-bait.

As far as the police ships are concerned there's a couple of points worth noting I think:

At your level of ability and equipment you are not reliant on help from the police, they are an extra distraction just as your SLFs are. You were clean & the others were not, I can understand why the Police need to scan you all but this is exactly the kind of circumstance where most players would absolutely want that assistance & distraction ASAP. I want to say it's because you are facing other players but really it's because you are facing engineered opponents that can clearly outrun the police scan even when they are focused on you.

With police we have a one size fits all problem. For the majority of players the police need to be bad enough to be able to escape from, but at the Min/maxed equipment level they are bad enough that they can almost be ignored - as you say they made little difference to the outcome. Once the first police ship has arrived there is no need for further delays, the game knows the level of damage being inflicted on the victim (the OP in this instance), the police response could potentially be quickly ramped up to match the DPS of the aggressor.

There are two ways the damage could be ramped up, one based on the damage being done in raw numbers to the victim, the other being based on the percentage damage.

If the police response (after the first ship arrives) ramps up based on hitpoints it takes into account the skill of the attacker to actually hit the target and the skill of the victim to avoid getting hit, but does not take into account how many total hitpoints the victim has (essentially their ability to escape).

If the police response were to ramp up based on the rate at which the victim loses hitpoints rather than just the actual number, I think it might help to provide a more appropriate level of response to the situation. If you go sealclubbing you get overwhelmed by Police & must evade them (providing the distraction the victim wants, assuming they survive the alpha strike), if the victim is better equipped the police don't have so much of an influence on an engaging, more evenly matched scrap.

There's probably a lot of holes in my logic but I think I'd prefer the latter - police response ramps up with how quickly the victim goes down.

 

[Camisade]

Nice fighting. Good thing you stock so many SCBs and heat sinks (especially for being on your way back from a HazRES)! Great video. Incredibly inept police response. I wonder how much of that is by design? The police are MUCH more effective in a PvE environment; as if they were designed specifically for that (and the weaknesses inherent the NPC AI's response to threat). It's as if they're designed for nothing more than to pull NPC aggro from the player's ship and little more. Ultimately, they're rarely more than a nuisance at helping in a PvP scenario (even when they do complete a scan and begin aggressing on the wanted players) -- and can actually create additional threat for players using turrets via friendly fire mistakes...

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Nice fight!

Anyway, all while even Stations - at the time by far the most potent Weapon Platforms - needed to receive not one but two (!) huge buffs... System Authority are still the obsolete V1.0 Meta bystanders.
I think I've read somewhere that they should have received a buff but AFAIK it never materialized.

For the time being, they're absolutely useless against potent Combat Builds.

PS.
I loved the fact that they're still not properly scripted to directly engage the attacker but instead
- ignore the fight and just jump off
- or aimlessly float somewhere despite Crimes being triggered all the time nearby
- or fail to intervene because they're unable to complete their scripted KWS before engaging against highly agile Targets

 

[thistle]

Great fight. Thanks for the vid. What was it you didn't like about the Challenger? I was about to build one...

Lol exactly what I was about to ask

 

[Krash]

I learned a lot watching this so thanks for posting it. I know the ATF is useless so I'm more concerned how I can apply what I see here to make me a better vette fighter. What effects are on your pulse and MC? I'm confused that TLB didn't break your turret lock. When I'm hit with TLB my turret lock is broken. Are the huge beams better than huge PAs or is that your preference?

The other things I noticed that are way over my head:

• 1 MRP + AFMU for repairs
• Sub targeting not affected by their TLB. In fact, I dont remember you using the sub target panel at all (i could be wrong) but at the end you target his distributor.
• Do you fly FA off? I didn't see the indicator, but who knows..
• I gave up on the SLF months ago, but here is a PvP pro, using his SLF as if it means something :S

[blah][woah]

 

[Morbad]

You were clean & the others were not, I can understand why the Police need to scan you all but this is exactly the kind of circumstance where most players would absolutely want that assistance & distraction ASAP.

With police we have a one size fits all problem. For the majority of players the police need to be bad enough to be able to escape from, but at the Min/maxed equipment level they are bad enough that they can almost be ignored - as you say they made little difference to the outcome. Once the first police ship has arrived there is no need for further delays, the game knows the level of damage being inflicted on the victim (the OP in this instance), the police response could potentially be quickly ramped up to match the DPS of the aggressor.

Police needing to scan before intervening in an active scenario like this is tantamount to real world police trying to check everyone for identification before ordering them to stop shooting each other. It's silly.

The first thing system security forces should do upon arrival in an instance like this is order everyone to retract hardpoints, come to a complete stop, and submit to scans. Anyone who doesn't retract hardpoints in very short order would become hostile to the police.

First responders should also make a threat assessment and call for reinforcements if the situation seems beyond their ability to control. In the case of multiple top-end combat vessels duking it out (or victimising someone), beat cops in their near stock vipers could well be justified in immediately requesting ATR (or equivalent) support.

Reaction times certainly shouldn't be instantaneous and the police shouldn't always have the units needed to drive off every aggressor immediately available, but their general behavior should come off as competent rather than comical. It should still behove CMDRs to make sure they aren't defenseless, both for plausibility reasons and to preserve some sense of danger, but if an average CMDR in a competently setup ship runs into trouble in a reasonably well patrolled area, the police response should probably be able to meet them half-way, rather than being utterly irrelevant.

Persistence is another core issue, IMO. It's one thing for a few hit-and-run attacks to succeed before security forces mobilize sufficiently, but as it stands openly belligerent CMDRs can linger with impunity...at least until they build up sufficient notoriety to get a near instant ATR response, which is really hard to do.

Good thing you stock so many SCBs and heat sinks (especially for being on your way back from a HazRES)!

Another part of the dichotomy between CMDR and NPC threats...other than some MC ammo, my ship was fresh on my way out of the RES.

I loved the fact that they're still not properly scripted to directly engage the attacker but instead
- ignore the fight and just jump off
- or aimlessly float somewhere despite Crimes being triggered all the time nearby
- or fail to intervene because they're unable to complete their scripted KWS before engaging against highly agile Targets

Yeah, it's pure comedy...unless one actually needs their assistance.

 

[Riverside]

Police needing to scan before intervening in an active scenario like this is tantamount to real world police trying to check everyone for identification before ordering them to stop shooting each other. It's silly.

The first thing system security forces should do upon arrival in an instance like this is order everyone to retract hardpoints, come to a complete stop, and submit to scans. Anyone who doesn't retract hardpoints in very short order would become hostile to the police.

First responders should also make a threat assessment and call for reinforcements if the situation seems beyond their ability to control. In the case of multiple top-end combat vessels duking it out (or victimising someone), beat cops in their near stock vipers could well be justified in immediately requesting ATR (or equivalent) support.

Reaction times certainly shouldn't be instantaneous and the police shouldn't always have the units needed to drive off every aggressor immediately available, but their general behavior should come off as competent rather than comical. It should still behove CMDRs to make sure they aren't defenseless, both for plausibility reasons and to preserve some sense of danger, but if an average CMDR in a competently setup ship runs into trouble in a reasonably well patrolled area, the police response should probably be able to meet them half-way, rather than being utterly irrelevant.

Persistence is another core issue, IMO. It's one thing for a few hit-and-run attacks to succeed before security forces mobilize sufficiently, but as it stands openly belligerent CMDRs can linger with impunity...at least until they build up sufficient notoriety to get a near instant ATR response, which is really hard to do.

Note that in all cases I will try to ignore any difference between PvP & PvE, I don't think it's relevant, although engineering clearly is.

With regard to your 'order everyone to retract hardpoints & and submit to a scan', frankly they could do that now & I (as the victim) would ignore it. I'd be either defending myself or more likely attempting to flee (not necessarily leave the instance, just avoid being hit and get out of range if my attacker is sufficiently distracted). In your example I would become hostile to the police. To my mind this only works if they are capable of restraining those that do not comply (as they would attempt IRL) which would rather spoil the fun in playing the baddie.

The game itself knows who is the aggressor (who is clean & who is wanted in the instance), I think it's plausible for the first responder NPC to demand what you say, but after a few seconds if they are not able to complete the scan (which is going to be practically every time imo) just start shooting at the wanted ship(s) in the instance, or any wanted ships that have fired on the player victim if it is a busy instance. I don't know whether the game knows who called for assistance (report crimes on) but if it is a known flag it could be used here.

The threat assessment part is what I was writing about above - appropriate reinforcements can arrive either with the first responder or nearly immediately after, because we can assume they were already on their way. The first responder has a time delay based on system security, I don't see this needing to change, only what happens when & after they arrive.

I completely agree that persistence is a problem with the ATR, but there can be two reasons to deploy them. One would be the existing one based on notoriety, a completely separate one can be simply as part of the proportionate police response I suggested earlier - if the rate of damage to the victim warrants it, send in the heavies.

I appreciate what you are saying about 'appropriately equipped' but this is a subjective choice based on what the player feels is enough for the way they play. The rules for how the police respond need to scale to all engagements, not just top-flight pilots duking it out in dedicated combat ships

I think the most poignant part of your comment is that they should not be irrelevant in any circumstances. Just as with the NPC SLFs, they should at the very least provide a distraction & therefore an opportunity for the victim to flee even though they may not choose to take it.

Couple of clarifications: The NPC police that arrive either with the first responder or once they have failed to negotiate peace could fire on the wanted ships, proportionate to the amount of dps the victim is receiving, which allows for a less capable player in a min/maxed ship to have their ability to (for example) hit their target with a PA. The Police ships can be engineered to the hilt & just not fire as often against a less capable attacker say.

 

[Chaparral]

Did some one say C and p ? I thought Sandro fixed all that with the latest spaghetti flowchart?

Nice flying Morbad. Learned a alot.

 

[Morbad]

What effects are on your pulse and MC?

The medium OC MC turrets are emissive and corrosive. The large efficient burst turret has scramble.

I'm confused that TLB didn't break your turret lock. When I'm hit with TLB my turret lock is broken.

I normally keep my turrets set to fire at will. In this mode they automatically and instantly reacquire the nearest target in their field of fire.

Are the huge beams better than huge PAs or is that your preference?

Against medium or small ships equipped with TLB, they tend to be far more reliable than PAs. They aren't as good against larger ships, but I'm rarely pulled by wings of anaconda or corvettes.

The other things I noticed that are way over my head:

• 1 MRP + AFMU for repairs
• Sub targeting not affected by their TLB. In fact, I dont remember you using the sub target panel at all (i could be wrong) but at the end you target his distributor.
• Do you fly FA off? I didn't see the indicator, but who knows..
• I gave up on the SLF months ago, but here is a PvP pro, using his SLF as if it means something :S

AFMU + MRP is much more efficient than stacking MRPs on larger ships with reasonably tough internals (less so on smaller ships). I fumble with the repairs a bit as it was my first PvP encounter (well, second, but the other was of much lower intensity) in the vette in several weeks and I'm a bit rusty...the bug where the module pane doen't always update correctly doesn't help things either. Still, I did keep my MRP from ever depleting, without wasting too much time in the module pane.

Subtargeting is affected my TLB and I normally don't bother to select subtargets if I think I'm just going to lose lock immediately. Indeed, disrupting subsystem targeting is one of the big advantages of TLB, silent running, and heatsink use. However, when I do target subsystems, I don't use the left pane, I use the cycle subsystem button I have bound to one of my hat switches...it's usually faster and doesn't require me to take my eyes off my target.

I spend the majority of my combat time with FA On, using FA Off sparingly, especially when I'm using fixed lasers and rails, as I have difficulty aiming them with FA Off. I do have indepent analog axes on my HOTAS for all thrust and rotation movement, which greatly reduces the FA On downsides. Frankly, if it's immediately apparent what mode someone is in (without looking at the indicator), their controls are probably suboptimal for that mode as there are very few things that cannot be done in either.

The SLF is a very potent tool when used well, especially in the hands of higher rank NPC crew. It can pursue and distract vessels too fast for a ship like the vette to follow, can keep shields on one opponent from regenerating while the mothership is focused on another, and does fairly respectable damage in and of itself. Every shot spent on countering an SLF (and wise CMDRs knock out SLFs if at all practical to) is one not fire at the mothership. Depending on the loadouts of the ships one is facing, they can be game changers. Frags and PAs, such as those on the Chieftain that originally pulled me here, are extremely poor at countering SLFs, so such an opponent can do little but absorb the damage. You really want to have rapid fire seekers or a zero jitter hitscan weapon to deal with SLFs, which is why the second Chieftain (with lasers and rails) was the one countering mine.

I also made numerous mistakes in this engagement: I accidentally popped off an SCB early on and had to waste a sink to counter it (which also caused me to lose count of my remaining charges later, which in turn caused me to have to check my module pane for it); I fumbled with the module pane a bit too often and for longer than necessary; I messed up my SLF launch at least once; I didn't always move pips away from SYS when I should have; I mixed up my opponents, allowing the one with the feedback rail to counter at least three of my SCB charges; and I was on the wrong firegroup a couple of times.

Anyway, that's why I record videos like this, so I can see what I do right and what I don't, so I know where I need to improve.

Note that in all cases I will try to ignore any difference between PvP & PvE, I don't think it's relevant, although engineering clearly is.

I don't like NPCs and CMDRs playing by different rules either, except where absolutely necessary.

With regard to your 'order everyone to retract hardpoints & and submit to a scan', frankly they could do that now & I (as the victim) would ignore it. I'd be either defending myself or more likely attempting to flee (not necessarily leave the instance, just avoid being hit and get out of range if my attacker is sufficiently distracted). In your example I would become hostile to the police. To my mind this only works if they are capable of restraining those that do not comply (as they would attempt IRL) which would rather spoil the fun in playing the baddie.

If you are trying flee, your hardpoints probably aren't deployed.

If you think you can defend yourself better than the police can, then you probably should, and the police should use the basic scan data as a guide. However, when even a basic scan cannot be reliably completed, as is often the case with very cold ships that are moving rapidly and thus don't resolve long enough, they should be treated as hostiles.

 

[NecasekO]

I had an interesting encounter a few days ago - same CG but a high res with police ships around. There was a wanted CMDR with around 6000 Cr bounty so it was definitely not just an accidental stray shot. It was a Krait with SLF, I was flying a Courier with lightweight weapons so I wasn't sure I could take out a ship+SLF combo.

I was thinking that a wanted CMDR has to leave the high RES quickly as they will get attacked by police at any moment. To my surprise, the CMDR didn't seem worried at all, was happily shooting pirates alongside police ships and several minutes later was still around, even though their ship was down to 20% hull.

In the end I lost my patience and attacked that CMDR, destroying the ship before they could react - it wasn't as tough as I expected. Interestingly, once I started shooting I saw weapon fire from other ships (presumably police) too.

So in this instance police was completely useless and even though they were present at all times they simply ignored a wanted ship that was shooting its weapons.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Police needing to scan before intervening in an active scenario like this is tantamount to real world police trying to check everyone for identification before ordering them to stop shooting each other. It's silly.

It looks like the problem is that once the other ships have shot you, they've committed their Assault offence against you, they don't commit further Assault offences by continuing to shoot you, and so never technically commit a crime while the police are about.

Something's not quite right there...

 

[Nazdakka]

Cool video, that was an entertaining watch.

Also, it might make sense to take the video and make a bug report out of it, because that police response was rubbish.

 

[Riverside]

I had an interesting encounter a few days ago - same CG but a high res with police ships around. There was a wanted CMDR with around 6000 Cr bounty so it was definitely not just an accidental stray shot. It was a Krait with SLF, I was flying a Courier with lightweight weapons so I wasn't sure I could take out a ship+SLF combo.

I was thinking that a wanted CMDR has to leave the high RES quickly as they will get attacked by police at any moment. To my surprise, the CMDR didn't seem worried at all, was happily shooting pirates alongside police ships and several minutes later was still around, even though their ship was down to 20% hull.

In the end I lost my patience and attacked that CMDR, destroying the ship before they could react - it wasn't as tough as I expected. Interestingly, once I started shooting I saw weapon fire from other ships (presumably police) too.

So in this instance police was completely useless and even though they were present at all times they simply ignored a wanted ship that was shooting its weapons.

Presumably the other player didn't commit any crimes in that instance & only your firing on them gave them cause to scan the other player (and presumably you too). Did you ask them the story behind their bounty?

 

[Jankules]

Excellent video!So close for each side,Your elite crew member helped a lot.Unengineered police forces were great public there...

 

[Jukelo]

Police needing to scan before intervening in an active scenario like this is tantamount to real world police trying to check everyone for identification before ordering them to stop shooting each other. It's silly.

It looks like the problem is that once the other ships have shot you, they've committed their Assault offence against you, they don't commit further Assault offences by continuing to shoot you, and so never technically commit a crime while the police are about.

Something's not quite right there...

That is really weird. I'd like to point out that one of the updates made it so that the police response no longer needs to waste time with a scan if they witness a crime being commited and that's been my experience so far.

Is this a powerplay thing and morbad belongs to a hostile power to Li Yong? But then the police wouldn't have showed up at all...

Probably worth posting a bug report, the police is supposed to (and in my experience does) open fire on anybody attacking you unlawfully, at least if it's being done after their arrival.

 

[Julio Montega]

When i do interdict and assault a haulage vessel the NPC police
does directly zoom in on me, when i am initially on their arrival in sensor range.
Their sensor range is to my testing 9KM and oblivious to silent running,
they got cybereyes and spot every little pixel.
Their initial point of entry to the NC instance, is where the first shot fell.

If you got distance between you two engaging and the initial point of assault
police commences the sensor sweep and scans before firing.
As soon as instancing with another player is involved that can be very fuzzy.

That is my experience so far.

 

[Morbad]

Also, it might make sense to take the video and make a bug report out of it, because that police response was rubbish.

Rubbish maybe, but I'm not convinced it's bug.

As far back as I recall, police won't shoot non-hostile wanted ships without doing a KWS scan first, and basic police units are often too slow to keep up with maneuvering combat ships to complete said scan.

That is really weird. I'd like to point out that one of the updates made it so that the police response no longer needs to waste time with a scan if they witness a crime being commited and that's been my experience so far.

Perhaps because my attackers had already added to their bounty by firing on my ship, no further crime would have been committed until my vessel actually exploded?

Is this a powerplay thing and morbad belongs to a hostile power to Li Yong?

My CMDR isn't pledged to any power.