Request: Change Alioth Permit Requirement

[Martin Schou]

Why?
Alioth is the Alliance capital system, and like the Empire's Achenar and the Federation's Sol, it requires a permit to enter it. Unlike Achenar and Sol, however, Alioth's permit can only be obtained by completing missions for a faction present in Alioth.

The Current Status
The preferred method of getting the Alioth permit since the game's launch, is to do mission work for Alioth Independents. As a result this faction is the largest AI faction by a mile.:

Category	Number	Rank	Closest AI competitor	Number	Rank
Systems Controlled	46	41	Independent Detention Foundation	28	109
Present in System	82	23	Party of Yoru	62	52
Assets Controlled	270	17	Sirius Corporation	147	56

Notice that the 2nd largest number of systems controlled is the Independent Detention Foundation - that's the prison ships you end up on, and it was inserted into 28 unpopulated systems. The next one on the list is Kui Xiani Purple Netcoms Network with 24 systems controlled at rank 138.

The Problem
The amount of missions being pushed for Alioth Independents means that it is constantly expanding. This is detrimental to all player groups working with the BGS anywhere close to them, as they risk suddenly having to fight a an almost unstoppable invasion backed by every single player who is looking to get an Alioth permit.

This is a unique problem in the game. There are no AI factions that even come close to the amount of backing that Alioth Independents have. Even Sirius Corporation, who've had story lines and CGs to boost its popularity is tiny in comparison.

The Solution
Make it far easier to get a permit for Alioth. As mentioned earlier, the permits for Achenar and Federation are given out to anyone who reaches low ranks in the Empire and Federation (4th rank for both) and can be obtained everywhere. The exact solution evades me currently. I don't want to add an Alliance navy rank - the only thing I know for certain, is that I DO NOT want it tied to Edmund Mahon and PowerPlay. Maybe issue the permit the first time a player reaches Allied status with the Alliance in general?

Edit:
All numbers taken from EDDB.io today.

 

[IamNickMan]

I can see how this is a huge problem for faction supporters in the region, It's a monster that has started invasion wars for system control against pmf's... which is shocking to say the least. Though, I'm not sure if this is something that can't be leveraged into a positive for the Alliance. The community I've come to known has always been extremely BGS/faction supporting centric. I'm a little surprised nobody has leveraged the permit grind, and the overall net positive faction Alioth Independents into something useful for the smallest superpower in Elite Dangerous currently. I'm not sure if removing the problem is a positive, or a negative overall for the Community as a whole. Perhaps this requires a large playergroup to fully adopt the alioth independents faction to mitigate damage. To be honest, given how little Frontier has taken action on inter-faction supporting activities, I'm not sure if outright requesting the permit be changed is the best path forward. Sirius Has the same issue, and nothing about the faction has changed in Elite Dangerous' history. The exception being, they've moved the sirius faction around the galaxy, and recently have used Galnet to beg the question if it is truly the 4th super power politically (venturing away from faction supporting, into lore here).

 

[Ian Doncaster]

The amount of missions being pushed for Alioth Independents means that it is constantly expanding. This is detrimental to all player groups working with the BGS anywhere close to them, as they risk suddenly having to fight a an almost unstoppable invasion backed by every single player who is looking to get an Alioth permit.

Eventually it will expand to the point where it's present in sufficient systems that the pressure in any particular system is diluted, and the expansion will stop.

It feels unlikely that people not specifically trying to influence the BGS are all going to fight in the invasion war:
- even if they're specifically after CZs as their rep method of choice, a faction that large and unmanaged is going to have several options
- if they're doing missions instead, the chance of them picking the invasion system is 1/X against.

...and of course, everyone only needs to get the permit once, so maybe you've also got people sticking around after that because they like the area.

I don't really see why Alioth Independents should be treated as a special case here - there are many large factions which are also probably really bad for other player groups nearby. You can't negotiate with the players backing Alioth Independents but in practical terms that's not a lot different to trying to negotiate with one of the other big ones and them saying "no, we crush you anyway", or just ignoring you.



Still, if a solution is required, it probably needs to look at really large factions in general. The pre-3.3 BGS, because conflicts overrode expansion, introduced natural overheads and difficulties to maintaining a large faction (and kept the size of ones like Alioth Independents, Party of Yoru, Sirius Industrial, Eurybia Blue Mafia, etc. down) ... so reintroducing some of those in a different way to the post-3.3 BGS might be a solution:

e.g. expansion and retreat thresholds are no longer constant.
Expansion threshold = 50 + (systems present)%, capped at 90%
Retreat threshold = 1 + (systems present/10)%, capped at 7%

Large unmanaged factions would then find their natural size much quicker and be easier for their neighbours to contain; managed factions would have to work more for their huge size if they wanted one and be easier to threaten.

 

[IamNickMan]

I do really like the idea of raising Expansion threshold to 90% for factions north of 50 systems present.... would make it more manageable without special cases.

 

[CaptainKirby]

I don't really see why Alioth Independents should be treated as a special case here - there are many large factions which are also probably really bad for other player groups nearby. You can't negotiate with the players backing Alioth Independents but in practical terms that's not a lot different to trying to negotiate with one of the other big ones and them saying "no, we crush you anyway", or just ignoring you.

Actually, there's a huge difference. I can tell since my group is highly affected by this issue, sharing about 20 systems with the Alioth Independents.

The difference is that player groups with large factions usually care for their faction's wellbeing. So even as a small group, with some decent BGS knowledge and dedication you could hurt that large faction and basically force them to respect you. Player vs player BGS conflicts work like some sort of mutually assured destruction, even though in extreme cases the large faction might get away with some minor scratches. With the Alioth Independents, however, you can't just attack the faction to get a better hearing. Those who cause your problems won't even notice because they don't care about the Alioth Independents, at least the very most of them. So there's nothing you can do but try and defend yourself.

Since the Alioth Independents are expanding all the time, especially closely to Alioth where the density of permit grinders is the highest, we've seen some rare and ridiculous situations in the BGS. Here are two examples:

1) In a system where the Alioth Independents saw very strong support for some time, my group put in tremendous efforts to retreat them and fill their spot with another nearby faction. Not long after our success the Alioth Independents invaded the system and despite losing the invasion war stayed in the system. There was a bug at the time that the losing faction wouldn't retreat, it's fixed by now. After that bug got fixed, we repeated our quest and again retreated the Alioth Independents, just to see them invading the system again a couple of weeks later. We fought back, won the invasion war, they retreated from the system and well... They invaded again just a few weeks later because there weren't any systems within expansion range without their presence. Every time we fought them it took us (midsized and experienced BGS group) some strong, focussed efforts to win against the grinders, yet there's no way we can ever keep them out. At this point the Alioth Independents got a presence in the system and we just try to keep them low enough in influence to avoid conflicts. We need to do this in about 20 systems, and the number is still growing.

2) There's another system close to Alioth, called He Bo. The system with its 24 billion citizens is controlled by our faction, which is the only non-native faction present. Some time ago our faction had some 60-ish percent in influence when the Alioth Independents, lacking another expansion target within reach, invaded our faction and challenged us for control (!). Technically this means that our faction - in a 24 billion pop system - dropped from 60% to 30% within a single day and had to win a war to not only keep control of the system, but to even keep a presence in the system. The Alioth Independence could have taken control of the system right away with a single invasion war. We threw everything we got at that conflict and we succeeded. But while the Alioth Independence retreated, the 30% that we lost in a single day was lost anyway. It'd take weeks to get it back. And the same situation could happen again anytime, which is why we need to not only defend our systems against the Alioth Independents but also need to try and prevent expansions of the Alioth Independents within reach of He Bo.

While both scenarios could (in theory) happen elsewhere, I'm still convinced that they shouldn't happen accidentally due to permit grinders. If somebody worked hard to create such a situation, that's one thing. But if it's just happening because the game mechanics reached their limits and there's an engineer nearby, it's more like bad game design. At least if it doesn't get fixed.

My group wasn't the one bringing this issue up as we thought for a long time that every group got some problems to work around. However, the Odyssey update attracted a lot of new players who are just worsening the situation to a point where it's not bearable anymore. Despite our efforts, we had to fight four wars against the Alioth Independents (which is by the way a faction we used to support where reasonable) and already lost a system. Within only four weeks. So to be honest, I'm glad somebody else noticed the problem and tries to find a solution.

 

[Retropolitan]

This is detrimental to all a defense against player groups working with the BGS anywhere close to them, as they risk suddenly having to fight a an almost unstoppable invasion backed by every single player who is looking to get an Alioth permit.

 

[CaptainKirby]

@Retropolitan Could you please elaborate?

 

[Retropolitan]

@Retropolitan Could you please elaborate?

We spoke about this once before, and I think I made it clear that not everybody likes player factions and what they do to systems.

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

I seem to remember showing up at a Alioth Independents station, selling data, 1 time, acquiring permit and being done with it. You guys sound like you're working too hard, if this is about the Alioth permit as the title claims. All the woes and wahs about the bgs and number of systems involved makes it seem veiled and secretly in favor of someones' bgs difficulty they're having.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Martin Schou]

I seem to remember showing up at a Alioth Independents station, selling data, 1 time, acquiring permit and being done with it. You guys sound like you're working too hard, if this is about the Alioth permit as the title claims. All the woes and wahs about the bgs and number of systems involved makes it seem veiled and secretly in favor of someones' bgs difficulty they're having.

Just my 2 cents.

Depending on how much data you sold and when it happened in game, this isn't beyond reason.

As for "woes and wahs" - I think I backed my point up quite well with numbers. The Alioth Independents faction is competing favourably with the largest player factions in the game. That size isn't seen elsewhere, exactly because that faction is special, likely because it's the only way to get the Alioth permit. There are no large player groups dedicating their time to the faction as there are with the other factions it competes favourably with.

The faction is a massive outlier, and if there were multiple of these (e.g. one for each capital system) I wouldn't be bothering with this type of post.

As for "veiled and secretly" trying to favour someone? I see problems, I make suggestions on how to fix it. Are there problems elsewhere in the galaxy? Probably - but I can't look at 20,000+ systems and 75,000+ factions and instantly notice every single little problem that exists.

I simply took a relatively simple look at the overview of the largest factions in the game and noticed that Alioth Independents are enormous compared to every other faction that isn't backed by a player group. In some areas it's larger than the 2nd and 3rd largest such factions combined.

So, here's my alternative take. I put forth a hypothesis with supporting evidence. Instead of pushing a conspiracy agenda, settle for attacking the data and my arguments by presenting data to support your argument.

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

Misread response deleted


I see what you mean

Pushing a conspiracy agenda makes for better forum reading you know

 

[Jmanis]

Still, if a solution is required, it probably needs to look at really large factions in general. The pre-3.3 BGS, because conflicts overrode expansion, introduced natural overheads and difficulties to maintaining a large faction (and kept the size of ones like Alioth Independents, Party of Yoru, Sirius Industrial, Eurybia Blue Mafia, etc. down) ... so reintroducing some of those in a different way to the post-3.3 BGS might be a solution:

e.g. expansion and retreat thresholds are no longer constant.
Expansion threshold = 50 + (systems present)%, capped at 90%
Retreat threshold = 1 + (systems present/10)%, capped at 7%

Large unmanaged factions would then find their natural size much quicker and be easier for their neighbours to contain; managed factions would have to work more for their huge size if they wanted one and be easier to threaten.

There was also the pre-3.3 suggested change where all systems controlled by a faction would need to be at 70%, not just one.

I mean, that has dags, but would also help.

 

[Kissamies]

Eventually it will expand to the point where it's present in sufficient systems that the pressure in any particular system is diluted, and the expansion will stop.

It feels unlikely that people not specifically trying to influence the BGS are all going to fight in the invasion war:

• even if they're specifically after CZs as their rep method of choice, a faction that large and unmanaged is going to have several options
• if they're doing missions instead, the chance of them picking the invasion system is 1/X against.

...and of course, everyone only needs to get the permit once, so maybe you've also got people sticking around after that because they like the area.

I don't really see why Alioth Independents should be treated as a special case here - there are many large factions which are also probably really bad for other player groups nearby. You can't negotiate with the players backing Alioth Independents but in practical terms that's not a lot different to trying to negotiate with one of the other big ones and them saying "no, we crush you anyway", or just ignoring you.



Still, if a solution is required, it probably needs to look at really large factions in general. The pre-3.3 BGS, because conflicts overrode expansion, introduced natural overheads and difficulties to maintaining a large faction (and kept the size of ones like Alioth Independents, Party of Yoru, Sirius Industrial, Eurybia Blue Mafia, etc. down) ... so reintroducing some of those in a different way to the post-3.3 BGS might be a solution:

e.g. expansion and retreat thresholds are no longer constant.
Expansion threshold = 50 + (systems present)%, capped at 90%
Retreat threshold = 1 + (systems present/10)%, capped at 7%

Large unmanaged factions would then find their natural size much quicker and be easier for their neighbours to contain; managed factions would have to work more for their huge size if they wanted one and be easier to threaten.

Another approach would be expansions needing support. Currently once the ball gets rolling, there is no stopping it. Maybe if it needed to be supported in pending phase, by keeping the influence above 65% for example. That'd allow the expansion to be cancelled and that would be useful, wether you are the supporter of the faction and want to stop an accidental expansion or someone who wants to stop a potential invasion.

Maybe not the best solution for the Alioth issue specifically, but it'd be widely useful.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

The difference is that player groups with large factions usually care for their faction's wellbeing. So even as a small group, with some decent BGS knowledge and dedication you could hurt that large faction and basically force them to respect you.

True, though there have also been plenty of situations where a PMF has come under attack by an organised group which is just out for revenge and either doesn't care what happens to its own territory or has already lost it. Some of those factions have managed to wait it out and rebuild afterwards ... others are now just hanging around at 1% in their home system.

While both scenarios could (in theory) happen elsewhere, I'm still convinced that they shouldn't happen accidentally due to permit grinders.

I've seen invasion-for-control happen a few times elsewhere, including at least twice accidentally due to cube filling. There is some inconclusive evidence that it may not be possible any more, which would solve that problem.

I'm not disputing that a large player-backed faction which won't talk and just shrugs and carries on after any defeats is not a pleasant thing to be living next to, but I don't think the intentionality of the action should matter in a BGS context.


I think - while Alioth Independents are the most obvious manifestation of this - the wider questions are:
1) Should Frontier give incentives to support particular factions at all? Yoru, Eurybia and Sirius Corp have all also got particularly large as a result of their engineer requirements as well - Alioth Independents have had structural advantages over those three so are even bigger but it's only a matter of degree.
2) Is the BGS balanced correctly between small and large factions?

For me, 1 I think the answer is 'yes' - which is something I've changed my mind on over the years. The BGS is an important story-telling mechanism. Natural environmental pressures, CGs showing up at particular times, etc. are part of that, and the area around the Alliance capital being drawn into a centralised hegemony is reasonable. I still remember when 78 Ursae Majoris was Federal...

On 2, I think the ease of rapid expansion especially post-3.3 is a misbalance and should be corrected in a way that is more severe the bigger you get. In theory the 3.3 plan to have a global happiness requirement to expand would have achieved that ... had it ever been implemented. Implementing the rest of 3.3 without that has caused a significant imbalance of which Alioth Independents are just one manifestation ... the huge proportion of the bubble only expandable to via invasion is the bigger sign that it went wrong. Fixing that would sort out Alioth Independents, and also make many other situations more balanced.

 

[Retropolitan]

On 2, I think the ease of rapid expansion especially post-3.3 is a misbalance and should be corrected in a way that is more severe the bigger you get. In theory the 3.3 plan to have a global happiness requirement to expand would have achieved that ... had it ever been implemented.

I do like the self-limiting nature of that approach. The bigger you get, the harder it is to grow, just like adding INF in a single system.

 

[CaptainKirby]

True, though there have also been plenty of situations where a PMF has come under attack by an organised group which is just out for revenge and either doesn't care what happens to its own territory or has already lost it. Some of those factions have managed to wait it out and rebuild afterwards ... others are now just hanging around at 1% in their home system.

Yes. And there's yet again the difference that attacks from players will stop at some point. It's temporary and therefore acceptable. If it's permanent, you can just go and uninstall the game because there's no point anymore to resist.

I'm not disputing that a large player-backed faction which won't talk and just shrugs and carries on after any defeats is not a pleasant thing to be living next to, but I don't think the intentionality of the action should matter in a BGS context.

In general, intentionality isn't something the BGS cares about, and it's alright that way. But if it's just such a dominant force that you can't do anything about it, and if it's permanently present, I would argue that it should at the very least be intentional work by players. Otherwise, Frontier could just stop the player driven part alltogether and implement changes as the please. If you can't beat the game anymore due to its design, what's the point of the game?

I think - while Alioth Independents are the most obvious manifestation of this - the wider questions are:
1) Should Frontier give incentives to support particular factions at all? Yoru, Eurybia and Sirius Corp have all also got particularly large as a result of their engineer requirements as well - Alioth Independents have had structural advantages over those three so are even bigger but it's only a matter of degree.
2) Is the BGS balanced correctly between small and large factions?

For me, 1 I think the answer is 'yes' - which is something I've changed my mind on over the years. The BGS is an important story-telling mechanism. Natural environmental pressures, CGs showing up at particular times, etc. are part of that, and the area around the Alliance capital being drawn into a centralised hegemony is reasonable. I still remember when 78 Ursae Majoris was Federal...

On 2, I think the ease of rapid expansion especially post-3.3 is a misbalance and should be corrected in a way that is more severe the bigger you get. In theory the 3.3 plan to have a global happiness requirement to expand would have achieved that ... had it ever been implemented. Implementing the rest of 3.3 without that has caused a significant imbalance of which Alioth Independents are just one manifestation ... the huge proportion of the bubble only expandable to via invasion is the bigger sign that it went wrong. Fixing that would sort out Alioth Independents, and also make many other situations more balanced.

1) Natural environmental pressures within reason are alright. We never complained about the Alioth permit and the pressure it caused in the past six years. Or the nearby engineer pressure, Gateway as Mahon's headquarters, whatever. There's also been a fair number of nearby CGs that messed up our BGS. But that's all fine, we're not crying over parts of the game that are fair, manageable, very local or at least temporary. The Alioth Independents issue is a permanent pressure that affects a large area of space and isn't manageable anymore. If you compare that to a community goal or a nearby engineer, then it seems that you underestimate the situation around Alioth a lot.

2) This isn't about large factions vs small factions. Sure, you can try to fix the issue by punishing large factions, but most of these factions worked very hard for it while the Alioth Independence just got the godmode from FDev. And I'm convinced that the devs aren't even aware of this issue. I'd like to know how they see it. If they think it's reasonable, well, maybe I and many other player need to accept that we lost this game and just move on.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

or a nearby engineer

I'm specifically comparing with Yoru, Sirius and Eurybia - rather than generic engineers - because those are three factions where rep with the faction is part of the engineer unlock process [1], in the same way as a permit unlock is - and which have therefore expanded perhaps less fast than Alioth Independents (who are certainly growing faster, though Martin's post noted the size of Party of Yoru too).

Alioth Independents are a problem now, but those three others will eventually become one too for similar reasons. So while I don't object to Frontier finding a solution, I think it should be a generic one, not just changing the Alioth permit award, or we'll be back here again in a couple of years.

I take your general points, however.

[1] Technically the same also applies to Colonia Council, but other structural factors mean that they don't generate the same issues, and in fact have shrunk from "only slightly smaller than Alioth Independents are now" to "not particularly noticeable"

Natural environmental pressures within reason are alright

This does highlight a general flaw with the "BGS as strategy game" design objective for it, of course: it basically relies on Elite Dangerous not being too successful.

At the moment high background traffic levels - where unlike near Alioth they don't have a reason to support specific factions - have an intensely stabilising effect on influences which even many organised groups can't practically overcome. If every system had natural 3-digit traffic levels and the busier ones were higher, then probably no expansions or retreats would happen again in most of the bubble. "Fortunately" there's no realistic prospect of Frontier increasing player numbers by 100x, but still, it does then cause oddities like this in those systems which are popular for whatever reason. (In general, by over-stabilising them rather than over-powering them ... Alioth, Yoru, to an extent Sirius and Eurybia are exceptions even in that)

 

[DragoCubX]

Here stood a question I figured out myself. Ignore this post (can't find delete button)

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

Here stood a question I figured out myself. Ignore this post (can't find delete button)

There isn't one, they want us to live with our shame lol

 

[CaptainKirby]

I'm specifically comparing with Yoru, Sirius and Eurybia - rather than generic engineers - because those are three factions where rep with the faction is part of the engineer unlock process [1], in the same way as a permit unlock is - and which have therefore expanded perhaps less fast than Alioth Independents (who are certainly growing faster, though Martin's post noted the size of Party of Yoru too).

Alioth Independents are a problem now, but those three others will eventually become one too for similar reasons. So while I don't object to Frontier finding a solution, I think it should be a generic one, not just changing the Alioth permit award, or we'll be back here again in a couple of years.

That's possible. I'm not familiar with the situation in those other regions, but the general issue probably exists there as well and it's certainly worth looking into it in general, not just with regards to the Alioth Independents. To be clear: I wouldn't want these factions to be cut down to a lower number of systems by the hands of the devs. They grew to their size and that's reality now. Only the still continuing and maybe even growing pressure by permit grinders seems unbalanced at this state of the game. A well-thought-out change to the permit mechanics might help to fix it without touching (and breaking) the very nature of the BGS.