Modes Reworking the game modes

Hello FDev Team and community!

I would like to suggest a rework of how players can choose between game modes.
I think we all have heard how private/solo has a disruptive impact on piracy for one example.

But there is actually more gameplay features that Elite is missing because players can choose the gamemode they want without any implications.

The most important one being BGS wars against certain factions.
So let's say a squadron has a home system with their own minor faction.
They have some minor dispute with another faction, which leads that squadron to initiate an BGS attack on the other squadron's starport to bring into a lockdown via BGS play in private or solo.
Another option would be to UA-Bomb their starport.

Currently the only valid option would be to BGS grind yourself or to deliver Meta-Alloys, as there is no option of confronting the other squadron and therefore successfully defend the starport.
The whole attack would only be noted once it has already delivered it's impact as you would never see any player ship in the nearby systems.

I am aware that there are a lot of players enjoying the game without the risk of getting into a fight with another player as it surely can be frustrating experience.
And in my opinion if you do not want to engage into that part of the game you shouldn't be forced into it, so an open only mode is not a valid option to support players enjoying major confrontation between groups or just 1on1s. But on the other hand, a player that earns their ships in private/solo was never exposed to the same risks as player who did that in open only.
Therefore it's actually unfair if these gamestyles share the same impact.

My suggestion would be therefore to lock progression to a gamemode and split the BGS as well.
This allows PVE-only playergroups, without affecting the playerbase of open.
A major effect would certainly be that most wings will be limited to open as a squadron only playing in group will be quite limited in their recruitement, but that is a positive development from my point of view.
The reason being why I view it as a positive development is that it allows a whole new range of player interactions.
It will emphasize new kind of carrers in the game, for an example squadrons employing spies to get a glimpse of other squadrons plans of expansion.
Or squadrons having patrol ship around their systems to secure their space from possible scouts/invaders.

I would like to share my experience from Naval Action, which shares some similarities from a gameplay style with Elite, but is limited to open only.
In Naval Action there are several major factions (similar to Powers) which control ports and only allow for docking of players belonging to that faction.
The factions themself didn't have any impact on the game, but the players did have.
New ports had to be raided by players to get them under a new flag and such wars between major factions rose on who controls the most ports.
Those attacks had to be announced so the players of the other faction had a chance to assemble a defense.
One clan was rarely able to start a meaningful attack on a port by themselves and therefore diplomats were needed to communicate with other clans and coordinate attack plans.
With this also came the spies...
All in all this was a very engaging aspect of the game, which content wise wasn't delivering an inch of what Elite brings on the table.

IMHO the currently reworked C&P systems delivers a perfect foundation to allow for such interactions as unjustified attacks are followed by meaningful punishments and therefore disincentivize griefing.
But the problem still being a lack of meaningful encounters, as currently Powerplay allows for such encounters only.
Even those encounters are quite meaningless and not impactful viewed from a squadron perspective, with currently the only reason for such an attack being to gain merits with the power...

I would love to see Elite allow for intergalactic wars between squadrons.
Conflict certainly can be a very engaging aspect in a game like Elite.
 
Another option would be to UA-Bomb their starport.

Currently the only valid option would be to BGS grind yourself or to deliver Meta-Alloys, as there is no option of confronting the other squadron and therefore successfully defend the starport.
Something to note here:
- delivering meta-alloys to counter requires maybe half the people they have to deliver UAs, because they're far easier to carry.
- blockading a system against all unwanted cargo deliveries requires maybe ten times as many people as they have delivering - spread out nicely over all time zones - and is still unreliable even then.

Even if the BGS was open-only, if you had the numbers to significantly affect an opposing force by PvP, you have the numbers to win easily on the PvE side anyway ... and vice versa if you don't have the numbers to win on the PvE side being able to shoot at the occasional opponent won't really help matters. (There are a couple of niche cases where PvP can have a useful effect in BGS, but you'd need really good intel to do them)
 
Something to note here:
- delivering meta-alloys to counter requires maybe half the people they have to deliver UAs, because they're far easier to carry.
- blockading a system against all unwanted cargo deliveries requires maybe ten times as many people as they have delivering - spread out nicely over all time zones - and is still unreliable even then.

Even if the BGS was open-only, if you had the numbers to significantly affect an opposing force by PvP, you have the numbers to win easily on the PvE side anyway ... and vice versa if you don't have the numbers to win on the PvE side being able to shoot at the occasional opponent won't really help matters. (There are a couple of niche cases where PvP can have a useful effect in BGS, but you'd need really good intel to do them)

Yes, you have countermeasures against such activities. I am just mentioning that it's sad you have to rely on passive measure and are not able to engage actively versus someone working from private/solo against you. The point being, it favors PvE players as this is the only method of defense.

I do have to disagree that you need to have a significant number advantage when intercepting unwanted cargo. All you need is one ship per system and enemy hauler as you can interdict them as soon as they made their hyperjump. Destroying an enemy hauler is a huge hit for such an offense.

You mentioned having good intel to effectively be impactful in the BGS via PvP, I do agree with that. The thing is that PvP is severely underpowered versus PvE that no one would ever bother to try and spy on other squadrons. This is one of the things I mentioned with my example of Naval Action, which basically is the counter model to Elite where PvE has basically no impact but PvP has.

The BGS is one factor to give meaning to PvP and that's why I think Open versus Group/Solo should not be a thing.
Powerplay is another option to give PvP more meaning, but that's maybe another topic.
 
Every now and then there's a thread about wanting to force people into Open play.
And most of the time it has to do with pirates not being satisfied by shooting NPCs and they want more players to rob :D
I said it before and I'm saying it again.. When someone's 'good time' in a game like this involves deliberately ruining someone else's, who wants nothing to do with the situation, that's not cool...

Is there actual statistical data somewhere about the percentage of PvP players in elite? To me atm it seems like the people who actually do PvP in Open is less than 1% of the playerbase.
So maybe one of these days we should be the ones to come up with a bright 'solution' for them, seeing as they really want to 'solve' this issue for us :D
What about turning player damage completely off and having dedicated PvP 'battlegrounds' / combat-zones.. where you jump in, get assigned to a side and you'll only be surrounded by others who actually want to do PvP, without forcing it on anyone.. If you die there we could have you respawn without a rebuy cost after a 30 second timer (obviously in the state that you entered, with all bounties etc you had still on you). It would be something similar to the arena, but you could use your normal ships and only harm people who are there for that specific reason..

There! How's that for a suggestion? :D If that happens then yes.. I believe everyone would be happy to roam around in Open and make new friends to cooperate with.. etc.. etc..

Cheers!
 
Every now and then there's a thread about wanting to force people into Open play.
And most of the time it has to do with pirates not being satisfied by shooting NPCs and they want more players to rob :D
I said it before and I'm saying it again.. When someone's 'good time' in a game like this involves deliberately ruining someone else's, who wants nothing to do with the situation, that's not cool...

Is there actual statistical data somewhere about the percentage of PvP players in elite? To me atm it seems like the people who actually do PvP in Open is less than 1% of the playerbase.
So maybe one of these days we should be the ones to come up with a bright 'solution' for them, seeing as they really want to 'solve' this issue for us :D
What about turning player damage completely off and having dedicated PvP 'battlegrounds' / combat-zones.. where you jump in, get assigned to a side and you'll only be surrounded by others who actually want to do PvP, without forcing it on anyone.. If you die there we could have you respawn without a rebuy cost after a 30 second timer (obviously in the state that you entered, with all bounties etc you had still on you). It would be something similar to the arena, but you could use your normal ships and only harm people who are there for that specific reason..

There! How's that for a suggestion? :D If that happens then yes.. I believe everyone would be happy to roam around in Open and make new friends to cooperate with.. etc.. etc..

Cheers!

I wasn't suggesting forcing everyone into open, I was suggesting keeping the impact of solo'ist and group players separate from open players.

My point being, you can do PvP but there simply is no reason to do so, which is also the reason you see meaningless murders and why so few people engage in PvP.
Give players a reason to defend their home star ports from being raided by an anarchist group of pirates or a federal strike team trying to capture it for whatever power.

You know, when you see a T-9 hauling tons of power propaganda into your home star port to get prepared for the next power cycle, you actually have a reason to shoot him down.
At the moment you wouldn't even see the T-9 as he is hidden in solo/group and would only notice the attack when having a close look at the power tab.
But seeing an unfamiliar player in my home system, hauling tons of cargo, I surely would scan him to know what he is up to.
Some features currently lacking because solo/group affect open and vice versa.
 
I do have to disagree that you need to have a significant number advantage when intercepting unwanted cargo. All you need is one ship per system and enemy hauler as you can interdict them as soon as they made their hyperjump. Destroying an enemy hauler is a huge hit for such an offense.
Right, but my point is that's only true if you know exactly when that hauler will show up.

If you have to provide patrol coverage for the whole day just to catch the 15 minutes they're doing a few supercruise runs, that's going to require a lot more than one pilot per system.
If they have two haulers (with engineered shields!) all they need to do is jump both in at once - you interdict one, they resist the interdiction, tank you for a bit, and then jump out ... by which time the other one is at the station.
(Or, now in 3.0, they start sending in a bunch of cheap haulers - Cobra IIIs, say - which can still carry enough to mess with your BGS, and not worry too much about losing a few because eventually you'll start getting chased out of the system by your own faction's ATRs...)

Meanwhile your patrol ships can only hang about in supercruise, doing nothing productive for the BGS. So one potential hauler can tie up patrols across multiple systems and multiple timezones.

It favours PvE players because the travel mechanisms in the game make targeted PvP extremely difficult. Same reason that most "let's team up and take on the gankers" groups end up falling apart without much success to show for it - they can't be everywhere at once all the time.
 
I wasn't suggesting forcing everyone into open, I was suggesting keeping the impact of solo'ist and group players separate from open players.

My point being, you can do PvP but there simply is no reason to do so, which is also the reason you see meaningless murders and why so few people engage in PvP.
Give players a reason to defend their home star ports from being raided by an anarchist group of pirates or a federal strike team trying to capture it for whatever power.

You know, when you see a T-9 hauling tons of power propaganda into your home star port to get prepared for the next power cycle, you actually have a reason to shoot him down.
At the moment you wouldn't even see the T-9 as he is hidden in solo/group and would only notice the attack when having a close look at the power tab.
But seeing an unfamiliar player in my home system, hauling tons of cargo, I surely would scan him to know what he is up to.
Some features currently lacking because solo/group affect open and vice versa.

Yes, I know what you meant and I was being slightly sarcastic in my post, even though it has some legit basis.
(They could limit PvP to include powerplay if they ever go with my crazy idea above haha.)

Anyway, the reason I play mainly in private groups / solo is not that I outright hate PvP or something.. I just feel like this game isn't about that.. I play some mobas for example where PvP IS the actual purpose and I enjoy them.
In elite however there is simply so much other stuff to do that it feels as though PvP wasn't ever really an intended mechanic here, it's simply a side-effect of the simulation and 'trying to keep it real' eg: if you discharge your weapons at a player ship, it takes damage like any other ship, since that's what you would expect to happen.
if I'm simply not feeling like being harassed by some eager wannabe pirate, I shouldn't be locked out of any game mode and just because I'm delivering the 1 million Cr worth of combat bonds to unlock an engineer in my weaponless ASP due to its longer jump-range, it doesn't mean I wouldn't be able to give that wannabe pirate a run for his money in one of my other ships.. so yea even if I was in Open, I would log over to solo for something like that, simply because my goal isn't to 'try and make it there alive' and have fun doing that, it's rather to get it over with so I can move on to other things and I don't wanna get caught with my pants down :)

Obviously lots of what you or I just said depends a lot on perspective and for every good suggestion there will be a handful of people for whom it will be a horrible suggestion, because it conflicts with their style of playing..
Most, if not all the drama and debates around here come down to a single thing: The fact that FD is trying to please way too many different types of people at the same time.

Take a look at the recent debates about the skimmer missions.. RP / PvE people want the game to have a 'regular' mission payouts so they actually get a sense of reward or progress from doing them, while PvP people or people fixed on a single activity that doesn't involve missions just want a gold-rush and 'free ride' so they don't have to worry about rebuys and bounties or getting the equipment they want to get in order to do that certain activity. Imo while FD tries to please both sides, it will continue to be like this and basically what they're 'balancing' atm is the amount of 'exploits' they actually leave in the game.. (anyone who thinks a bit about it knows that it's not a case of 'they can't fix it'.. or 'they don't know about it', but rather a 'they might not want to, until they have to').

So yea, until FD makes up their minds about the direction they want to go, there will be endless amounts of discussions and debates on these types of topics :)
Also, the T-9 hauling the tons of power propaganda, might not give a rats 'behind' about powerplay or wanting to take over a station.. he could be simply trying to rank up to get the benefits for a completely different reason.. he might be treating it as a solo game where he wants that 50 mil payout and has no idea how to even recognize a player faction or the impact of his actions so he would be equally annoyed and surprised by players hunting him for that.
Like I said.. too many game modes are mixed, which is awesome in a way, but problematic in so many others..

Cheers :)
 
Right, but my point is that's only true if you know exactly when that hauler will show up.

If you have to provide patrol coverage for the whole day just to catch the 15 minutes they're doing a few supercruise runs, that's going to require a lot more than one pilot per system.
If they have two haulers (with engineered shields!) all they need to do is jump both in at once - you interdict one, they resist the interdiction, tank you for a bit, and then jump out ... by which time the other one is at the station.
(Or, now in 3.0, they start sending in a bunch of cheap haulers - Cobra IIIs, say - which can still carry enough to mess with your BGS, and not worry too much about losing a few because eventually you'll start getting chased out of the system by your own faction's ATRs...)

Meanwhile your patrol ships can only hang about in supercruise, doing nothing productive for the BGS. So one potential hauler can tie up patrols across multiple systems and multiple timezones.

It favours PvE players because the travel mechanisms in the game make targeted PvP extremely difficult. Same reason that most "let's team up and take on the gankers" groups end up falling apart without much success to show for it - they can't be everywhere at once all the time.

I did not mean to encourage a playstyle where you have a patrol ship in your system.
What I am talking about is that if the impact of group/solo is cut off from open, you will notice any unfamiliar players in your home system and are more likely to check their cargo.
But it is just one example of how the mishmash of modes disables a lot of potential player interactions, that do not necessarily need to end up in a fight.

It's not only the travel mechanics that make PvP extremely difficult, it's the lack of reason to do so as well.
IMHO Powerplay and the BGS should give us the reasons to engage in PvP, but currently the only reason you have is to gain merits, which is way easier destroying npc ships.
 
if I'm simply not feeling like being harassed by some eager wannabe pirate, I shouldn't be locked out of any game mode and just because I'm delivering the 1 million Cr worth of combat bonds to unlock an engineer in my weaponless ASP due to its longer jump-range

It's a risk/reward consideration taking the faster but less combat capable ship to get the reward so to say easier as you are safe from any risks.
This shifts if your progress was locked to a game mode.

Obviously lots of what you or I just said depends a lot on perspective and for every good suggestion there will be a handful of people for whom it will be a horrible suggestion, because it conflicts with their style of playing..
Most, if not all the drama and debates around here come down to a single thing: The fact that FD is trying to please way too many different types of people at the same time.

True indeed, I am bringing the matter up since there are plans for an implementation of a squadrons feature including fleet carriers operating as foward bases as well as a rework of powerplay.
An emphasis of player engagements and how the different modes affect those should be a consideration when such features are being worked on.
A well though implementation could lead to very interesting intergalactic wars between squadrons, which fully emphasizes the self narrative and player impact of the game.

Take a look at the recent debates about the skimmer missions..
Considering risk/reward those missions were totally overpaid, I agree. Imagine being able to do such missions only in open and the tides turn drastically.
Imagine further, those missions wouldn't lead to anarchy systems, but players doing them would fly around with hefty bounties attracting lots of bounty hunters.
Sounds like an interesting way of balancing to me, while also having interesting gameplay options for income.

the T-9 hauling the tons of power propaganda, might not give a rats 'behind' about powerplay or wanting to take over a station.. he could be simply trying to rank up to get the benefits for a completely different reason..
That doesn't seize the conflict that raises when he undermines my home station ;)
At least I am able to confront him and if not blow him up immediatly to tell him to deliver to some other station, possibly a squadron being at war with mine ;)
 
It's a risk/reward consideration taking the faster but less combat capable ship to get the reward so to say easier as you are safe from any risks.
This shifts if your progress was locked to a game mode.



True indeed, I am bringing the matter up since there are plans for an implementation of a squadrons feature including fleet carriers operating as foward bases as well as a rework of powerplay.
An emphasis of player engagements and how the different modes affect those should be a consideration when such features are being worked on.
A well though implementation could lead to very interesting intergalactic wars between squadrons, which fully emphasizes the self narrative and player impact of the game.


Considering risk/reward those missions were totally overpaid, I agree. Imagine being able to do such missions only in open and the tides turn drastically.
Imagine further, those missions wouldn't lead to anarchy systems, but players doing them would fly around with hefty bounties attracting lots of bounty hunters.
Sounds like an interesting way of balancing to me, while also having interesting gameplay options for income.


That doesn't seize the conflict that raises when he undermines my home station ;)
At least I am able to confront him and if not blow him up immediatly to tell him to deliver to some other station, possibly a squadron being at war with mine ;)

Those are actually quite decent responses! :) Especially the last one haha.. (too bad not everyone thinks like that)

Now that you mention it, I'm looking forward to what squadrons could do to the game, maybe it'll shift the focus entirely and I will see pvp as more of an 'intended feature' then :)

But yea, like I said, I think FD should really decide on an angle they wish to pursue so all the confused people can finally decide if this game is for them or not :D
 
Those are actually quite decent responses! :) Especially the last one haha.. (too bad not everyone thinks like that)

Now that you mention it, I'm looking forward to what squadrons could do to the game, maybe it'll shift the focus entirely and I will see pvp as more of an 'intended feature' then :)

But yea, like I said, I think FD should really decide on an angle they wish to pursue so all the confused people can finally decide if this game is for them or not :D

That's why I am here blowing my horn, hoping SenPai notices.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Some relevant Dev quotes on the matter:

Will at any time solo and private group play be separated into a different universe/database from open play? It's kind of cheap that you can be safe from many things in solo, like player blockades and so on, and still affect the same universe.

No.

Michael

Thanks for that clarity Michael.

Are you in a position to confirm that group switching between the three game modes will remain as a feature of the game?

We're not planning on changing that.

Michael

I’m also pleased to announce PC, Mac and Xbox One players will all share the same overarching narrative and galaxy state. That means even more players contributing to the wars, power struggles and Community Goals across the galaxy.

For fun :)

That said, it could be worth thinking about reducing the impact that solo & group players have on the political simulation.

Unlike community goals, Powerplay is a swinging balance - ie solo players are also balancing solo players.

According to some members of the community, Solo players should have a limited or no effect on Powerplay - or, alternatively, playing in Open should offer Powerplay bonuses. Is this something you are considering?
No. For us Solo, Groups and Open are all valid and equal ways to play the game.

Is there planned to be any defense against the possibility that player created minor factions could be destroyed with no possible recourse through Private Groups or Solo play?

From the initial inception of the game we have considered all play modes are equally valid choices. While we are aware that some players disagree, this hasn't changed for us.

Michael
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Is there actual statistical data somewhere about the percentage of PvP players in elite?

Not as such, however:

On PvP vs PvE
We listen to both sides. While it's true that the PvP crowd do tend to be more vocal and in previous betas have given more organised feedback, we're well aware that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP. A few changes here are more focused on one or the other (torpedoes have no real place in PvE at the moment for starters), but overall I think they promote variety of loadouts in both styles of play, and will make both more fun. On a personal note: I play more or less entirely in PvE, so if anything my bias in favour of that ;).
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Thanks! Yea it seemed like that to me as well. And they are vocal indeed :)

.... especially when a completely optional play-style (direct PvP) cannot be forced upon those who are engaging in the entirely non-optional indirect PvP upon which the single shared galaxy state is based.
 
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