Right what the hell is wrong with the controls?

[Captain N]

From what I remember, the original "turreting" comments from the devs way back were actually related to strafing - a completely different mechanic. One of them said that (this was before even alpha 1 was released) they didn't want to allow people to strafe without limitation as this leads to players just circling around each other and shooting like turrets, instead of having WW2 style dogfights.

Strangely enough, strafing is still in the game and is a viable tactic.

Somewhere along the way the message got garbled I guess and now most people refer to pitch / yaw controls as "turreting" (whatever the connection in their minds to turrets is I wouldn't dare to speculate)

The official rationale for the pitch / roll controls was different and had more to do with aesthetics than anything else. The devs felt it just makes flying around look cooler or something like that.

Me, in any case, I think it actually genuinely makes fights tactically more interesting and more 3D as the orientations of your and your opponent's ships are not completely irrelevant like in most games but it actually matters by which side of them you pass in an approach and there's a lot of subtle ways of manoeuvering that exploit an opponent's weak yaw while making best use of your pitch. It leads to way more interesting gameplay than the alternative so I wouldn't lose it at any cost. Plus it looks cool.

 

[DazzyB]

Well yea I tried that but Yaw controls are next to useless in this game.

Granted, they are a bit slow I agree. But I also back what others are saying... if you just try and give it a little time, you will not regret it honestly. It's so much fun and can be truly challenging when in dogfights! The key is to take your time and maybe practice docking slowly to start with (which in itself is very fun and fulfilling). Then try the dogfight aspect once you are used to docking efficiently.

Anyway, I really hope you get the hang of it because it would be a shame if you missed out. It's epic fun mate!

 

[Ottomic]

Doing a 90º in a Sidewinder is as easy as rolling, and afterburner while pulling. 2 afterburners for a 180.

Granted, flight model is rather atmospheric-y in this game, but bear in mind that were this game to be "realistic" you wouldn't be able to go much further than your current orbit allows and dogfights would be... kinda boring, to put it mildly.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

From what I remember, the original "turreting" comments from the devs way back were actually related to strafing - a completely different mechanic.

Certainly some of it referred to turning on the spot, as that was the explanation behind the 'sweet-spot' for turning being above zero m/s. I think nerfed yaw rates was also brought into the discussion by Mike, but can't be sure without going looking.

EDIT: I went looking...

We do vary the rotation rates with speed but we nerfed low speed the same as top speed because it prevented people staying still and turreting instead of flying.

We've deliberately reduced the effectiveness of your retro thrusters so as to make coming to a stop much more time consuming than accelerating forwards. Additionally your ability to orientate your ship is most effective when around 50% of your current top flight speed and significantly reduced at both the low and top end. This fact makes "turreting" (as we call it) not very effective as your ability to stay still and take pot shots against a more mobile enemy is reduced.

Tactics we've discovered are all about carefully managing your speed to take advantage of the sweet spot in manoeuvring and managing your ships power distribution to alter the ship's top speed and thus sweet spot. Additionally using the vertical and lateral thrusters can help alter or sometimes tighten your turning circle.

Further effects that can effect a combat is that the further away you are from peak manoeuvrability the more drifty the flight model becomes as your manoeuvring thrusters struggle to compensate for your changes in heading.

 

[Corralis]

Yes it is. You can easily get to round 6 or 7 by just sitting stationary and turreting around with the mouse. You could probably get further but I quit the game as it was so tedious.



Nice, immediately insulting anyone who disagrees with you. A great way to win friends and influence people.

Yes wave 6-7 is easy to get to but I would love to see you do it without ever moving your ship, in fact could you make a video of that?

As to your second point, I'm not insulting anyone, it simple maths, having to make 3 separate moves to turn left over 1 move is not the optimal way of doing things.

Just remember that Star Citizen does the same move as ED, it just does it more simply and more precise. If I move my mouse to the left in Star Citizen, the ship rolls, pitches and then levels off again (on the same plane) when I get to the direction i want to be facing. In Elite, I have to make 3 very un-precise and far more complicated movements to do that same thing.

 

[Dr Wookie]

My very first attempt at Arena Commander on the Vanduul Swarm mode, I got to wave 9 before I died (and wave 9 is bloody difficult). I can't even get passed the 3rd mission with ED. I can't kill one single ship on it's own. I am good at space flight sims and I had very high hopes for this one but I can't get into learning a completely different way to play space sims. It's just too counter-productive.

The thing about Elite Dangerous is that it rewards skill and practice. I started learning to play the guitar about the same time as I started playing ED alpha 1. Each time I play either I get better and better.

I was great at guitar hero and rockband, but that didn't really help my actual guitar playing at all (apart from a bit of fret-hand finger strengthening). But loads of games are controlled with a plastic guitar controller, so learning to do both is just a waste of time right?

 

[Asp Explorer]

It's Elite. It's not meant to be Easy.

It is very intuitive though.

 

[Teiwaz]

As to your second point, I'm not insulting anyone, it simple maths, having to make 3 separate moves to turn left over 1 move is not the optimal way of doing things.

It's not about being optimal. It's about being fun and adding depth.

Space combat games tend to have really boring flight mechanics compared to atmospheric sims. Everything is just a matter of turn radius and being able to aim. There's no stalling, there's no tactics to keep a high airspeed while reducing average velocity (ex. rolling scissors) there's no tradeoff between altitude and speed (i.e. no energy conservation.) It's turn and shoot. Nothing to differentiate the good pilots form the bad, just a lot of twitch.

This is fine in games where you can carefully control the environment - putting lots of "terrain" to work with, like asteroids, or big ships to fight around, or adding lots of competing objectives like combers and torpedoes to shoot down, or adding escort quests. But you can't do that in Elite where most of the time you're alone, the universe is big and empty, and the scale of the battles tend to be small because you're a merchant/bounty hunter/pirate and not a fighter jock.

The Yaw restrictions in E are one of the best parts of its flight model. When you're tailing someone, you have to anticipate which way they're going to break and roll accordingly. When they're tailing you, it's a poker game as you try to catch them with their roll wrong when you make a break for it. It adds a huge amount of depth, because you have to plan ahead for what you want to do next, or what you think your enemy wants to do next, or for what you think your enemy thinks *you* will do next.

Saying "well, it would be better for the ship to be able to turn on all axes equally quickly" is like saying Super Mario Brothers would be better if you could just fly over every level. Yes, you could avoid all the pits and the enemies. Yes, you could more easily get all the coins. But the game is about *having* to avoid pits and enemies and having getting all the coins be a *challenge.* It completely misses the point of the whole exercise.

 

[stephen_usher]

Well then I'm sorry but Frontier have got it wrong and some of the very best space flight sims will prove that to be correct (Wing Commander series, X-Wing vs TIE Fighter, Freespace 1&2, Privateer, Starlancer, Freelancer and finally Star Citizen/Arena Commander). All those games use normal flight mechanics and all of those games succeeded. Why change what isn't broke?

That's strange, I've played all the X-Wing titles and the Freespace ones and always found them to be roll/pitch controlled with somewhat slower yaw, just like this game. I can't talk about the Chris Roberts games because I never played them. They always seemed a bit limited and submarines in space to me.

 

[Corralis]

That's strange, I've played all the X-Wing titles and the Freespace ones and always found them to be roll/pitch controlled with somewhat slower yaw, just like this game. I can't talk about the Chris Roberts games because I never played them. They always seemed a bit limited and submarines in space to me.

Well somewhat slower yaw is possible as it has been a long time since I played those games but Elite's Yaw is massively reduced to the point of not being able to fly using it. None of the games I listed above have done anything like this.

 

[Togg]

as another relatively new player.. I will echo what the others have already said.. give it a CHANCE.. it works, and it works well, once you get the hang of it. also as someone else pointed out.. a Joystick for this game is a viable option.. it shines well with one.

 

[Corralis]

as another relatively new player.. I will echo what the others have already said.. give it a CHANCE.. it works, and it works well, once you get the hang of it. also as someone else pointed out.. a Joystick for this game is a viable option.. it shines well with one.

I don't own a joystick, I have always played space sims with keyboard and mouse and it has always worked just fine for me until now.

 

[stephen_usher]

Well somewhat slower yaw is possible as it has been a long time since I played those games but Elite's Yaw is massively reduced to the point of not being able to fly using it. None of the games I listed above have done anything like this.

I must admit that I never tried playing the games with a mouse as it never occurred to me that it was viable control method for a space vehicle. I've always used a joystick right from the old 8 bit days, through the 1990s DOS games and to the present.

I found having to play Frontier and First Encounters with a mouse really problematic, especially because it was pitch/yaw with absolute positioning. I think I must have worn out a mouse may or two. I hated it, and am still not a fan. Having said that I've been playing Frontier using an Amiga emulator recently and as long as I don't try combat I'm OK.

Each to their own I imagine.

From what I understand, the current Eliteangerous mouse control is set up as a virtual joystick, just like the original Microsoft Flight Simulator I used to play on my Atari ST. That seemed to work well on that program.

 

[Malicar]

I set roll to manual and remap to Q and E. A and D is fine for thrust left and right and is similar to what the OP is thinking. You can technically fly the ship using the lateral thruster but you don't do it with the mouse. Again it's to avoid the turret in space syndrome and that is also why flight assist off is so twitchy. I remap W and S to thrust up and down and then R and F for speed. Z is my mouselook and Space is my toggle flight assist. I also set throttle keys to 1-8 for quick presets. Absolute Pitch Yaw Inverted is my mouse setting. I even love how the deadzone of the mouse works. I can set an analog movement with the mouse and then go into mouselook and track targets while flying in supercruise. Helps when flying over planets and other bodies if I need a gradual arc

I find the flight model to be fun and challenging. If you wanted real space flight it would be extremely tedious and not really fun for pew pew. Besides you can get creative with the controls and your full Newtonian is still there with the flight assist toggle minus some gravity. Besides all the space sims have different flight models. Sure most yaw on the mouse but this is Elite and it has a purpose.

This also bodes well for the planetary landings for the expansion pack as atmospheric flight is similar and it keeps things relatively simple for the AI to utilize and at the same time doesn't require a second flight model. I understand what the OP is saying though. However I suggest like others try it and play it and if you find it fun once you get used to the controls then don't worry about it.

 

[Severian]

Just remember that Star Citizen does the same move as ED, it just does it more simply and more precise. If I move my mouse to the left in Star Citizen, the ship rolls, pitches and then levels off again (on the same plane) when I get to the direction i want to be facing. In Elite, I have to make 3 very un-precise and far more complicated movements to do that same thing.

No one is arguing any of these points with you at all We've all said, if you want a game that does all the work for you, go SC with auto everything, if you want to use your own skill, go ED.

We like using skill and thought to play. Also, your only "un-precise" as your in experienced at this game currently. Many of us are "very-precise"

 

[Teefur]

...most people refer to pitch / yaw controls as "turreting" (whatever the connection in their minds to turrets is I wouldn't dare to speculate)

It probably has a lot to do with those being the axes of motion when you are in a turret.

 

[Corralis]

Well I appreciate the comment but this style of flying feels fundamentally wrong to me and I can't see me being able to get over that.

Hopefully I will be able to get a refund.

 

[Dr Wookie]

Yes wave

Just remember that Star Citizen does the same move as ED, it just does it more simply and more precise. If I move my mouse to the left in Star Citizen, the ship rolls, pitches and then levels off again (on the same plane) when I get to the direction i want to be facing. In Elite, I have to make 3 very un-precise and far more complicated movements to do that same thing.

So you're saying that you prefer the ship to do all the actual flying for you... Fair enough .

 

[Malicar]

So you're saying that you prefer the ship to do all the actual flying for you... Fair enough .

Wookie you going to be training the E3 visitors to come and kill us?

 

[Ottomic]

...So I guess the answer this thread's title is "nothing, they're just not what you expected"?

I've played space sims my whole life and while pitch/roll/yaw is slower in this game, lateral thrusters and afterburner maneuverability are off the charts, at least with a sidewinder. You just gotta find what works and what doesn't in this game, same as with any other.