Right what the hell is wrong with the controls?

[Gwydion]

Yea you know what, your just being a now. I'm not gonna waste my time trying to explain my point of view to you as you clearly couldn't comprehend it anyway.

Everyone knows what point you are trying to make but very few people on here agree with you. Most have attempted to be helpful and explain why it is the way it is and encouraged you to keep trying and in return you've been nothing but an abusive parrot.

You've stated, when someone didn't agree with the point you were trying to make, and therefore liked the current control method that "there must be something wrong with you".

You keep going on and on, ad nauseum, that all the other space sims do it the "right way" when the right way is a matter of opinion. The fact that there is such a demand for a return to Elite 30 years!!! after it's initial release should suggest to you that a lot of people want this game to be made, and are very happy with the control method of roll vs. yaw.

 

[ianw]

In an attempt to help Corralis out, rather than keep saying "go to SC":

Yeah, I agree that roll+pitch on mouse is a really awkward control method for those of us who have 10+ years of gaming on a mouse in muscle memory..

That's interesting - see I've come back to PC gaming after a long hiatus and like many others here played the original Elite on a keyboard.

I haven't tried ED with a mouse nor will I - for me a mouse means work stuff not fun stuff. I tried a game pad but the X52 just seems totally intuitive and is a lot of fun.

One of the mantras I've heard here and elsewhere since my return Jan 13 is "easy to pickup, hard to master".

And it does actually seem to mean something here - which is exactly what I'm looking for. I can now easily outfly inexperienced people but still get bested by better pilots - which is of course the only way you learn. It's one of the things that encourages me to spend time in this game so I hope it remains that way.

I tried point the mouse at AC and there just doesn't seem to be anything to it. No doubt there's a learning curve of sorts but as things are it can't be the flight model coz you just point and it does the rest.

Mike Evans has said the mouse control is a WIP so perhaps it will get better than it is for those that use it, but as things stand I'll be sticking with the stick.

 

[Mace71]

My very first attempt at Arena Commander on the Vanduul Swarm mode, I got to wave 9 before I died (and wave 9 is bloody difficult). I can't even get passed the 3rd mission with ED. I can't kill one single ship on it's own. I am good at space flight sims and I had very high hopes for this one but I can't get into learning a completely different way to play space sims. It's just too counter-productive.

Hey, everyone we have a hotshot here so I think he'd know proper space flight controls when he sees them...

Seriously, instead of arguing the toss for 11 pages how about actually learning how to pilot in Elite? Why is having to learn looked down on these days? Too many games that hold your hand is the problem.

So, suck it up, wipe your eyes and learn! You ain't getting your money back so its up to you...

 

[Robert Maynard]

Hold on I have never call FD, or anyone who works for them, stupid.

That makes no sense, why would any sane person decide to control their ship that way?

No, you merely questioned their sanity....

 

[stephen_usher]

Yeah, I agree that roll+pitch on mouse is a really awkward control method for those of us who have 10+ years of gaming on a mouse in muscle memory..

Surely this is for first person shooter and ground vehicle games rather than anything requiring three dimensional control?

I've been playing on flight sims for over 20 years but I wouldn't dream of trying to use a joystick and the muscle memory from flight sims to control "Return to Wolfenstein".

It's a bit like saying that you're used to driving a car therefore every control system on every vehicle should be like a car's.

 

[X2Eliah]

Surely this is for first person shooter and ground vehicle games rather than anything requiring three dimensional control?

I've been playing on flight sims for over 20 years but I wouldn't dream of trying to use a joystick and the muscle memory from flight sims to control "Return to Wolfenstein".

It's a bit like saying that you're used to driving a car therefore every control system on every vehicle should be like a car's.

yeah, no.

 

[Lobstris]

I've never actually got how people can fly flight sims or space sims with a mouse/keyboard. Without a joystick (and now a full HOTAS) I'd be lost - presumably this is a 'growing up in the 80s' thing.

With Arena Commander there seems to be a weird 'S-shaped' response curve going on with the joystick... i.e. 'slow, slow, FAST, FAST, slow, slow'. I'm sure it will get sorted (they've got enough money to get some guy to look at the curves surely? )

For me Elite: Dangerous' dogfighting is a wonderful update of the original, it just feels natural. Pitch, roll, pitch, roll, little bit of yaw to keep target in the sights, and lateral vertical thrust on the hat switch. Setup and bindings were intuitive as well (I'll forgive the whole 'no key for gear' we had originally. )

 

[fireFly1000]

Seriously, in which autority you have to come here and say how the game it suppose to be? All this games where based in the past. And the Arena Commander is a fail, you only have to see the forums where people say that the pich/yawn make space turrets. Seriously, what do you pretend? Because you have AC to play.

Oh yeah, I understand. Im pretty sure that you are a fanboy from SC, noticed that you AC was a fail and dont want that Elite has a succes to come here in order to want that Elite has the same fail flight model that SC.

FD dont follow this troll, seriously, your game is awesome and if you follow the AC you will fail like them.

We don't need to be aggressive, even more so if you think he is trolling.

The last week has been quite interesting because we are now getting regular posts like this where it is clear
1) The control method of ED appears absolutely illogical to some
2) There is no desire to spend the time to master the controls

For me that is a concern and I think FD probably need to look at some sort of training mode to help people get up to speed. Introducing the elements gradually.

There are single player missions that teaches you how to fly.
Maybe Frontier should rename them tutorials.

 

[Commander Dave]

Well then I'm sorry but Frontier have got it wrong and some of the very best space flight sims will prove that to be correct (Wing Commander series, X-Wing vs TIE Fighter, Freespace 1&2, Privateer, Starlancer, Freelancer and finally Star Citizen/Arena Commander). All those games use normal flight mechanics and all of those games succeeded. Why change what isn't broke?

Because they changed it and broke it in doing so.
The original Elite was pitch/roll.
Elite: Dangerous is pitch/roll.

 

[Commander Dave]

Your right, the controls are absolutely not what I expected them to be,

That's an entirely reasonable point of view. Sometimes things are not what we expected.

nor are they very good.

This is not a reasonable point of view. It's a value judgement. And it's your value judgement.
If you can separate the two and comment accordingly then it'll be rather more clear.
For me, the controls and flight model are about as perfect as they could possibly be.
For you they are clearly not.
Your view, or my view, or anyone else's view does not make the controls intrinsically good or bad.

 

[lo9rd]

Your right, the controls are absolutely not what I expected them to be, nor are they very good.

I have always watched my cousin play the Elite games with awe, what he can do is amazing but I have never given them the time they need as damn, it's a learning curve for sure.

But instant gratification is shallow, and as much as I have played a lot of Privateer and Freelancer as my main space games, I want real depth, accumulated skills (not in game stats, but real tangible ship killing skill). I am in a similar situation to you, I plunged £100 to this campaign to get the beta without really knowing if I was going to be able to handle this game. Why I did though is because I want to be able to get to that level of depth and skill my cousin had in the older games. I watched him fly for hours on Frontier First Encounters, my trade route knowledge and narrow escapes transcended the glitches and the graphics. It was intense and intelligent and I want to be part of that.

I am still struggling with the controls, but instead of moaning about it, I am watching videos, reading the forum and playing, and replaying the scenarios. Yes it's tough, but you know what, I'm going to eventually get my monies worth and a lot more. I can't wait for that breakthrough moment when I reach a point where I can fly, then be let loose in the universe!

Why not do the same?

 

[[VR] Shadowman]

I'd like to add some thoughts here.

You have the right to ask questions/query something you consider to be not working. Less so if you do it in an abusive/trolling/aggressive manner - statement of fact, not an accusation btw. I think your OP is quite reasonable.

Secondly, you're not in a tiny minority as most of the respondents here would have you believe. They have simply jumped on the band wagon to defend what they now consider "their game", as much as some folks do on the SC forums and will defend it vehemently, blindly and without question.

From an objective point of view, I can clearly see where you're coming from. Back in the days of alpha 1, I pretty much thought exactly the same thing and warned that posts like yours would become more commonplace, because it appears something is wrong with the ship. It takes effort and patience to learn to understand what FD have done, usually by way of posting and finding out that it's by design, not through control misconfiguration.

However, as far as FD are concerned they now created a two edged sword. They've got their semi-custom flight model, as they see fit, but they've also enforced a requirement on all players, that you must have patience to learn and get accustomed to their model. Unfortunately a lot of people won't like this and will give up/post similar posts after probably less than 30 mins of play -feeling they've failed to achieve satisfaction and a certain level of competency can be quite demoralising with a brand new game.

My final thoughts are that as others have said, try and stick with it. FWIW, I use a generic gamepad (cheapo I bought years ago) and it works fine for me. I use yaw only for landing/fine tuning direction and pitch/roll everywhere else. If you have any experience of flying games (not space sims), you should at least find that quite familiar, which will help you get used to E: D.

Good luck either way.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

My very first attempt at Arena Commander on the Vanduul Swarm mode, I got to wave 9 before I died (and wave 9 is bloody difficult). I can't even get passed the 3rd mission with ED. I can't kill one single ship on it's own. I am good at space flight sims and I had very high hopes for this one but I can't get into learning a completely different way to play space sims. It's just too counter-productive.

the 3rd mission is arguably the hardest one, it is the only one I failed at.

all the rest is subjective... Me, I would be gutted if they changed the flight model, it is the strongest thing about the game, and conversly I HATED SC when I 1st played it.... now I have readjusted my expectations, given up on flightstick for now and am really enjoying on xbox pad.

Playing with a mouse in Elite is doable, but it isnt optimal... Warning another subjective comment......Mouse in flight games, I have never liked esp in modern ones with 3 axis in flight, it just feels..... horrible to me, which is why I loved all CR games up till free lancer, which I only "liked" as freelancer was mouse and KB..

maybe if you borrow a joystick or xbox pad and you will feel better?

but if not, I am really sorry but either adapt or move on, the flight controls are what FD want, and also what the majority of the community wanted as well (not all of course but you can never please everyone)

PS you make out like wing commander and xwing are the granddaddies of space sims that all other games should follow...

This is not accurate, Elite was out before them all.... indeed Frontier "tried" the yaw approach but most people preferred the original flight model.

Good luck. Dont give up on it keep trying. It is a way tougher flight model than AC - your post that you got to wave 9, presumably killing at least 35 vanduul on a max of 3 lives proves this, but maybe it will grow on you too (like the AC one has for me, to a degree).

in ED a 3 on 1 in a sidewinder is pretty much run or die, and that is another
reason I love it so much.

Really? That's all you have got from this thread?

No i don't want the ship to fly for me, I want the ship to fly the same as every other space sim ever has since the original Elite games. I don't think it's all that much to ask.

BUT NOT the original elite game..... do you not see the problem with your logic? :S

Loads of times it has been made very clear the flight model was going more back to the original game and slightly away from the Frontier model, which DB regarded as less fun.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

deleted

 

[Corralis]

BUT NOT the original elite game..... do you not see the problem with your logic? :S

Loads of times it has been made very clear the flight model was going more back to the original game and slightly away from the Frontier model, which DB regarded as less fun.

Yea, I have read all your comments and I agree with them.

When I first started this thread I was confused with the game, I couldn't figured out the controls (or the controls were not doing what I expected them to do) and I figured I must be setting the game up wrong. Within the first two posts I then realized that the game was designed this way, totally different from any of the space sim games that I have played in the past (and as I mentioned, I have played a lot of them) and I couldn't understand why anyone would do this.
Also it was getting late and I was tired and then I ended up arguing with people instead of what I should have done which is to learn how people play the game and not keep up pretending it was just the wrong way to do things.
So for that I apologize, I never meant to cause any offense to anyone and I will attempt to learn how to fly in Elite as I've been waiting too long for the game to just give up after an hour.

 

[ianw]

Yea, I have read all your comments and I agree with them.

When I first started this thread I was confused with the game, I couldn't figured out the controls (or the controls were not doing what I expected them to do) and I figured I must be setting the game up wrong. Within the first two posts I then realized that the game was designed this way, totally different from any of the space sim games that I have played in the past (and as I mentioned, I have played a lot of them) and I couldn't understand why anyone would do this.
Also it was getting late and I was tired and then I ended up arguing with people instead of what I should have done which is to learn how people play the game and not keep up pretending it was just the wrong way to do things.
So for that I apologize, I never meant to cause any offense to anyone and I will attempt to learn how to fly in Elite as I've been waiting too long for the game to just give up after an hour.

Well said Commander, good luck!

 

[Cody]

I will attempt to learn how to fly in Elite as I've been waiting too long for the game to just give up after an hour.

<nods> Cool!

 

[JazHaz]

Hmm well if that's the only way you can fly your ship then I think I'm gonna have to ask for a refund because it's stupid on every level. No other space flight sim does it this way.

No other space flight sim than the original Elite from 1984.

This is the point. The game uses pitch and roll because the original game uses that. It wouldn't be Elite without it.

 

[Toumal]

I think I can distill the issues the OP has about the Elite control scheme down to a core point:

It's difficult and sometimes impossible to shake someone off your tail in the normal (FA) flight mode.

That is true! Sometimes you turn and turn and the other guy just matches you because he's using lateral thrusters or has a slightly more nimble ship. That's just the way it is. If you want to prevail, you have to outmaneuver him. Disengage flight assist, fly backwards, use lateral thrusters, those sorts of things.

If the complaint is that someone doesn't enjoy the flight model, then that's fair enough, you can't please everyone. But if you're asking for the ability to turn on a dime and basically whip your ship around to aim at an attacker, then Elite is not your game. And that's not because its flight controls suck, but because you can't or won't cope with them. There are ways to deal with an opponent hanging on your tail. And you know what, sometimes there are fights which you should not engage in. If you are fighting overwhelming odds in Elite, then chances are you should not have gone there in the first place.

Please don't try to argue with realism however. It's clear that vehicles in space usually don't turn at ridiculous rates such as shown in Arena Commander. Check out Space Engineers, or even the old Elite: First Encounters game, for a realistic, fully newtonian space flight model. It's interesting, but lends itself very badly to any kind of dogfight.

Elite Dangerous isn't aiming for physical realism. We had that in Elite 2 and 3, thank you very much. Come to think of it, Frontier and First Encounters are actually a lot more like Star Citizen (except they didn't cap the maximum speed and you weren't confined to a box like in SC today).


If what you're looking for is to be the invincible super space captain who pilots a single fighter and kills entire fleets of enemy ships, then don't fly in the galaxy of Elite Dangerous as it'll eat you whole and spit out your bones.

I can't speak for everyone, certainly not for any majority, but I and a lot of people I know love this challenge. There's no reward without the risk of failure.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Yea, I have read all your comments and I agree with them.

When I first started this thread I was confused with the game, I couldn't figured out the controls (or the controls were not doing what I expected them to do) and I figured I must be setting the game up wrong. Within the first two posts I then realized that the game was designed this way, totally different from any of the space sim games that I have played in the past (and as I mentioned, I have played a lot of them) and I couldn't understand why anyone would do this.
Also it was getting late and I was tired and then I ended up arguing with people instead of what I should have done which is to learn how people play the game and not keep up pretending it was just the wrong way to do things.
So for that I apologize, I never meant to cause any offense to anyone and I will attempt to learn how to fly in Elite as I've been waiting too long for the game to just give up after an hour.

it happens, I have crossed many lines in different forums, most people dont mind so long as you come back and are ok after you cool off.

once you are done with the training missions (I suggest you stick with them for a bit) your next issue will be making money.

this following thread has numerous suggestions and I think kicks off at 1 point, so ignore the hostility, but, post number 9 is how I made my money.

http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=458478#post458478

edit and you may want to stick a line in the top of your 1st post to say you are not giving up and are carrying on, so as not to keep getting people reading your 1st post and still arguing with you