ruling about relative mouse is out

[besieger]

This is how is was in alpha and beta then Frontier nerfed FA-ON. Lateral and reverse speed is much higher in FA off.
To test simple bring your ship to a halt...go full throttle laterally, or reverse, once max speed is reached simply switch to FA-off...you'll instantly see your ship gain more speed.
FA-on has capped lateral and reverse speeds.

Again you are not capped at all, 4 pip your drives and you will see, I fly FA OFF and ON all the time, you basically telling me I am wrong even though I had countless videos proving otherwise, there is no "CAP" its that your ship is countering your thrust the entire time.

Correct, roll and pitch rates are higher, or to be more accurate, the acceleration into a maneuver is higher FA-OFF.

Besieger is partly correct though, there isn’t really any advantage, it is just different flying styles.

For a while after gamma we did have some huge advantages in fa-off, ability to maintain max boost speed, much higher deceleration rates. Devs adjusted it all because it was too easy
to escape npc’s.. Kinda funny considering we now fly G5 dirty tuned ships against essentially stock npc’s.

One other current fa-off advantage is the ability to maintain 4 PIP engine velocity with zero pips ( or any pip
Combination)

Its not partly correct, I am 100% correct... I fly these ships every single day with both FA ON and OFF, there are videos proving what I have said. If you guys took the time to go and learn your ship and how to fly it you wouldn't even be talking about this. and again even for lateral thrusters there is no cap, I can strafe just as well as a FA OFF pilot can you just have to make sure you are firing all the relevant thrusters manually.

 

[Han_Zen]

Leave the relative mouse alone. It's not easy mode. Not to me at least. I find it easier to do FA-off with the HOTAS(still hard). The only thing I do better with relative mose, is aiming.

I would rather we had a discussion on FA-off in general. Personally I think it's time to consider lowering the skill bar for FA-Off, by implementing an option for full rotational dampening.
It takes a lot of practicing to master FA-Off flight. You need quite a bit of muscle memory to get it to the level where it matches FA-On in efficiency.
I know this was FDs intention, to avoid the 'Turrets in space' scenario. I think we are there anyway. Both the thruster power of engineered ships and the amount of players that masters FA-Off, means that there are 'Turrets in space'.

Why not make it more accessible to the casual player? Give them a stepping stone that is a bit easier to master.

 

[besieger]

Leave the relative mouse alone. It's not easy mode. Not to me at least. I find it easier to do FA-off with the HOTAS(still hard). The only thing I do better with relative mose, is aiming.

I would rather we had a discussion on FA-off in general. Personally I think it's time to consider lowering the skill bar for FA-Off, by implementing an option for full rotational dampening.
It takes a lot of practicing to master FA-Off flight. You need quite a bit of muscle memory to get it to the level where it matches FA-On in efficiency.
I know this was FDs intention, to avoid the 'Turrets in space' scenario. I think we are there anyway. Both the thruster power of engineered ships and the amount of players that masters FA-Off, means that there are 'Turrets in space'.

Why not make it more accessible to the casual player? Give them a stepping stone that is a bit easier to master.

Why would you do that, the reward is mastering the flight mechanics... besides you couldn't make any more easy that it already is, FA OFF is nothing special, its just manual control over all of your thrusters at all times.

 

[Han_Zen]

Why would you do that, the reward is mastering the flight mechanics... besides you couldn't make any more easy that it already is, FA OFF is nothing special, its just manual control over all of your thrusters at all times.

More options are better. Gives players the chance to choose the best control method for them self.
FA-Off with rotational dampening worked fine in FE:2 and FFE. It would work even better in ED as the different thrusters are much more balanced. It would make it far more accessible on consoles.

Having to chose full FA-On or full FA-Off is just an artificial limitation.

 

[777Driver]

@besieger - Mate I have been doing FA-OFF guides way before you started your pew pew nonsense on streams, unless you are cmdr itchy in disguise.

Back up and read what I said carefully.

FA-OFF provides a faster initial rate into a maneuver, there is no disputing that, has been verified over the years, FA-ON has always provided an initial ‘drag’ into a maneuver, that is essentially how it works. Especially noticeable in heavy ships, hence why they are a bit more lively fa-off.

MAX roll/pitch rates are the same fa-on & off



You cannot maintain max PIP speed with zero pips to engines whilst FA-ON, you are limited to the max pip velocity, the ship will decelerate, this doesn’t happen fa-off...I am happy to concede if you can show me otherwise.

Example, boost in a straight line 4
pips fa-off, reduce to 0 pips, the ship
Will settle at the 4pip velocity, now try that fa-on, the ship settles at the 0 pip velocity

As already mentioned, there is no massive advantage fa-off, just different flying styles and a few little bonuses
For flying fully Manual.

Please don’t tell me how to fly these ships, I know you are a good pilot but you’ll make yourself look silly despite how great of a pvp’er you think you are. And I have met you out in the black, on a few occasions.

 

[besieger]

Mate I have been doing FA-OFF guides way before you started your pew pew nonsense on streams, unless you are cmdr itchy in disguise.

Back up and read what I said carefully.

FA-OFF provides a faster initial rate into a maneuver, there is no disputing that, has been verified over the years, FA-ON has always provided an initial ‘drag’ into a maneuver, that is essentially how it works.

You cannot maintain max PIP speed with zero pips to engines whilst FA-ON, although I am happy to concede if you can show me how.

As already mentioned, there is no great advantage fa-off, just different flying styles.

Please don’t tell me how to fly these ships, you’ll make yourself look silly despite how great of pvp’er you think you are. And I have met you out in the black, on a few occasions.

Oh boi... you just look dumb now. making guides does not translate into knowledge, you where clearly giving miss-information, its well know that FA ON can be just as good as FA OFF, the only thing you gain as I keep telling you is control over each thruster, master FA ON before you start coming here claiming is worse in some way, its you are just bad and need an reason to tell yourself you are not the one doing something wrong.

Don't blame the game, blame yourself first, especially when well known PVPers are showing you proof that your observation at best is nothing more than the cries of a dude that got creamed and feels somehow that FA OFF is OP compared to FA ON.


EDIT: Lets see these "Guides"

 

[777Driver]

Dude you sound like an amateur..

At no point have I said FA-OFF is superior, either you have no idea what I am saying, or you are just trolling. Everything I typed can be easily tested.

 

[besieger]

Dude you sound like an amateur..

At no point have I said FA-OFF is superior, either you have no idea what I am saying, or you are just trolling. Everything I typed can be easily tested.

Show me these guides you speak of.

 

[bladebss]

And what advantages does having controll over all your thrusters add?

It increases your lateral thruster acceleration, your pitch and yaw, and allaws you to travel sideways and backwards at top speed. Those are the advantages that preople are talking about with faoff. And yes the reason is full manual controll over thrusters.

So if your controller alows for better/more precise indidvidual controll over your thrusters then using fa off your at an advantage over some one who is not using those controll methods or who is using fa on regardless of controll method.

Why else is the use of fa off so prevalent in pvp especially amoungs so called pros? If fa off and fa on are equal?

 

[777Driver]

Show me these guides you speak of.

By guides I mean 4 years of forum
posts, contributions to testing these effects, and videos online.

Now go make yourself useful and test what I have described.

Interested in seeing you maintain your 4 pip velocity with 0 pips.

Funny thing is I was actually agreeing with most of what you initially wrote

 

[nanite2000]

you wouldn't need video of my mouse and keyboard, the mouse widget would prove its relative off.

I can't wait to see it.

As an aside, and in light of the...err..."discussion" between you and 777Driver, I think we can all acknowledge that, while keyboard and mouse FA-OFF with relative mouse movement disabled is not entirely impossible, it is by no means a desirable or practical way to control your ship.

If there are tens of thousands of players in-game, and only 1 can "manage" FA-OFF with relative mouse disabled, then it doesn't really promote it's advantages as a viable control method.

 

[besieger]

And what advantages does having controll over all your thrusters add?

It increases your lateral thruster acceleration, your pitch and yaw, and allaws you to travel sideways and backwards at top speed. Those are the advantages that preople are talking about with faoff. And yes the reason is full manual controll over thrusters.

So if your controller alows for better/more precise indidvidual controll over your thrusters then using fa off your at an advantage over some one who is not using those controll methods or who is using fa on regardless of controll method.

Again no, ughh I am going to break this down real simple so people here can get a full understanding with this because its super strange how everyone seems to miss the point but in different ways.


FA OFF - Pros
- Total control over thrusters
- Not locked to current vector

FA OFF - Cons
- Poor vector control vs FA ON
- Much higher skill level required
- Poor speed control vs FA ON



FA ON - Pros
- Good vector control
- Low skill level required
- Good speed control
- Manual control over thrusters when input

FA ON - Cons
- Harder to pull off FA OFF flight maneuvers due to automatic thruster counter
- Defined movement leading to clear leading target
- Automatic speed control can be used against you

As you can see there is no clear winner, and never will be... its all about skill, a skilled FA ON player will run circles around a FA OFF player when flown correctly, the same is true for a FA OFF player, each can also be countered using the opposite style of flight, and within FA OFF and ON there are styles of flight too, some are close to what I would call stock FA ON or OFF and others are very much defined by the player, I for example am known for my different way of using both FA OFF and ON and due to this I am more difficult to counter using the above pros and cons list.

By guides I mean 4 years of forum
posts, contributions to testing these effects, and videos online.

Now go make yourself useful and test what I have described.

Interested in seeing you maintain your 4 pip velocity with 0 pips.

Funny thing is I was actually agreeing with most of what you initially wrote

Ah so no guides... ok got it! well that settles it I guess I am far more experienced than you... the forums are very much PVE based resulting in your misconception of how these flight systems work.

 

[777Driver]

So weak dude, not even willing to test something so simple.. Fair enough

 

[besieger]

I can't wait to see it.

As an aside, and in light of the...err..."discussion" between you and 777Driver, I think we can all acknowledge that, while keyboard and mouse FA-OFF with relative mouse movement disabled is not entirely impossible, it is by no means a desirable or practical way to control your ship.

If there are tens of thousands of players in-game, and only 1 can "manage" FA-OFF with relative mouse disabled, then it doesn't really promote it's advantages as a viable control method.

Again it comes down to the settings you use, everyone has a different setup, I can almost guarantee if you posted your setup I could help you get very close to being comfortable with FA off in a single week.

So weak dude, not even willing to test something so simple.. Fair enough

Yes so weak indeed, I only posted multiple videos, explained how it worked, oh and you explained you and your "guides" are nothing more than some forum posts to a PVE echo chamber.

EDIT: Link to these videos... I want some new memes

 

[777Driver]

I’ll be home in a few hours, What time stamp on your vid shows you maintaining your 4 pip speed with 0 pips in eng whilst fa-on? I’ll have another look.

Regarding the other point (acceleration into a maneuver) perhaps since you are kB/m user it doesn’t apply. I’ll post a vid showing that it most definitely applies for hotas users when switching fa-on to off, so that could be a kB/mouse advantage.

As mentioned a number of times, max roll/pitch velocity is identical between fa-on/off. It is the acceleration curve that differs between the two. At least for HOTAS. Have never flown kB/mouse

Memes? I’m 40yrs old, are you a teenager?

 

[Winter Jasra]

By guides I mean 4 years of forum
posts, contributions to testing these effects, and videos online.

Now go make yourself useful and test what I have described.

Interested in seeing you maintain your 4 pip velocity with 0 pips.

Funny thing is I was actually agreeing with most of what you initially wrote

Can you post us some FA Off videos?

 

[777Driver]

On my phone winter, back home in about 2hours. Although you could
Probably just google ‘Elite dangerous FA-OFF 777driver’. That’s how I easily find my older posts.

 

[nanite2000]

Again it comes down to the settings you use, everyone has a different setup, I can almost guarantee if you posted your setup I could help you get very close to being comfortable with FA off in a single week.

Unfortunately, I'm not the target audience for this. I don't have the time to play at all at the moment, and only expect to have time to play in short sporadic bursts for the foreseeable future (babies are time consuming, I've discovered). I just don't feel strongly enough to commit any time to learning a new control method, and relative mouse movement enables me to occasionally dabble with FA-OFF in a way that isn't entirely awful.

Now, if FDev could just add a hotkey to toggle relative mouse On/Off, then this entire thread would be obsolete.

 

[Cmdr Snuffler]

Again you are not capped at all, 4 pip your drives and you will see, I fly FA OFF and ON all the time, you basically telling me I am wrong even though I had countless videos proving otherwise, there is no "CAP" its that your ship is countering your thrust the entire time.

Yes you are wrong. Wrong on so many levels and I don't give a flying monkeys about your videos....you're still wrong!!!
I have just logged into ED to prove this.
Vulture...G5 Dirty Drives with Drag Drives.
Full pips to engines, 2 to systems.

FA-On Max Reverse Speed: 212mps
FA-Off Max Reverse Speed: 353mps

That's a 66.5% increase in speed with FA-Off!

So yes, FA-On has capped max speeds in reverse and lateral thrusters.
Clearly you don't fly FA-Off and On enough or pay very very little attention.

These caps were introduced during alpha/beta due to myself and a number of other well known PvP combat pilots who used lateral thrusters to spiral around a target, making combat very spirally.

 

[Winter Jasra]

Yes you are wrong. Wrong on so many levels and I don't give a flying monkeys about your videos....you're still wrong!!!
I have just logged into ED to prove this.
Vulture...G5 Dirty Drives with Drag Drives.
Full pips to engines, 2 to systems.

FA-On Max Reverse Speed: 212mps
FA-Off Max Reverse Speed: 353mps

That's a 66.5% increase in speed with FA-Off!

So yes, FA-On has capped max speeds in reverse and lateral thrusters.
Clearly you don't fly FA-Off and On enough or pay very very little attention.

These caps were introduced during alpha/beta due to myself and a number of other well known PvP combat pilots who used lateral thrusters to spiral around a target, making combat very spirally.

And how did you get your Vulture to reverse at an increased rate in FA Off?

Did you boost forward then flip 180 degrees?

Your ship is not reversing, it's just flipped and continuing on its original vector.