Same old song about cheaters

[Riverside]

Okay so do you accept that it will always be possible for players to combat log, even if they do so in the sure knowledge that their ship is lost.
Even though it denys you your satisfaction of a kill (and potentially any bounty). I'm trying to paint an extreme picture here. Thus is not a loaded question btw, just interested

Alright so I suppose the thought process I'm following here is that, to my mind, the ideal situation is that nobody combat logs (ie nobody feels the need to, we can't stop them killing the process). I don't fight, I run from (or simply avoid) player conflict.

However from the other player's perspective (ie the one that is left behind after the other disconnects), they are denied a kill. If instead of the ganker vs sheep scenario we look at the CLing Ganker vs wolf in sheeps clothing, I can see how being attacked, defending yourself successfully & having your attacker disconnect can be frustrating.

In the Ganker vs CLing sheep, the sheep want no part of this, so combat logs. The Ganker is in a position to be able to persuade the sheep to stay & be entertained (and I deride them for not doing so. Cheap kills are pathetic). I see no reason to massively increase the punishment for CLing here. Sure it's bad (m'kay) but it's a fight or flight reaction, however misguided. It also seems to wind up the gankers, and wrong as CLing may be, I'm in favour of winding up gankers.

For the CLing Ganker vs Wolf in Sheeps Clothing (ganker attacks, realises they are losing, disconnects), the ganker is still initiating the scenario, but the Wolf is not motivated to encourage the Ganker to be entertained, only to take their punishment. So again the ideal is nobody combat logs, but in this scenario the Wolf has no real control over the situation (they are reacting to it), they just want to see the CLing Ganker punished. In this situation I would absolutely favour maximum punishment for the combat logging SoB.

I think mostly I just wrote this to get it clear in my own mind. Does it make sense?

 

[JerryLove]

Well, someone just told you it affects his gameplay, so I guess it does.
Unless you want to behave just like un-empathic RPKs and trample over other player's enjoyment of the game in your righteous indignation.

Let me make sure I have this straight.

You can't enjoy Elite: Dangerous, and the reason you cannot enjoy it is because I might possibly be combat logging in my Solo game?

Or do you just not know whether you are enjoying it or not because you don't know if I am?

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Alright so I suppose the thought process I'm following here is that, to my mind, the ideal situation is that nobody combat logs (ie nobody feels the need to, we can't stop them killing the process). I don't fight, I run from (or simply avoid) player conflict.

However from the other player's perspective (ie the one that is left behind after the other disconnects), they are denied a kill. If instead of the ganker vs sheep scenario we look at the CLing Ganker vs wolf in sheeps clothing, I can see how being attacked, defending yourself successfully & having your attacker disconnect can be frustrating.

What is the impact on you/them? How is a player you don't kill because they high-wake different from a player you don't kill because they outrun you different from a player you don't kill because they are a better fighter different from a player you don't kill because they disconnect?

And that covers one, relatively rare event. How is combat logging against NPCs hurting other people?

In a perfect world: player interaction would enrich the game for both involved. Yes, that enrichment may include the element of danger and risk (and actuality) of being blown up. But this is not a perfect world.

 

[duckofdeath]

Not even close.

What's your purpose with logging off and on to get new missions? Cheat the servers to give you more credits, of course. Why would a player, not taking part in that, want to play PvP with you? I don't combat log, and I don't exploit similar p2p issues to earn more credits than the game was designed to generate. As long as the game is p2p, it will never be a true multi player game, as everybody finds ways to cheat the game engine to make credits or save credits.

 

[Riverside]

What is the impact on you/them? How is a player you don't kill because they high-wake different from a player you don't kill because they outrun you different from a player you don't kill because they are a better fighter different from a player you don't kill because they disconnect?

And that covers one, relatively rare event. How is combat logging against NPCs hurting other people?

In a perfect world: player interaction would enrich the game for both involved. Yes, that enrichment may include the element of danger and risk (and actuality) of being blown up. But this is not a perfect world.

Well CLing against an NPC is pretty low on the scale of bad, but I guess the same rules apply. If you initiate the event & then CL, you lose your ship, if you were attacked... Personally I'd be inclined to say you lose your ship either way here. What do you think?

The player that high wakes can (potentially) be tracked, the hunt is on if you choose. The CLer denys you this gameplay opportunity.

I have some trouble with your final sentence. Optimum doesn't have to be perfect, it only has to be good enough. Only in Maths can you find perfection

 

[JerryLove]

What's your purpose with logging off and on to get new missions? Cheat the servers to give you more credits, of course.

Or to save time sitting waiting for the refreshes.

Why would a player, not taking part in that, want to play PvP with you?

Same reason they would want to PvP anyone else.

I don't combat log, and I don't exploit similar p2p issues to earn more credits than the game was designed to generate.

You mean "generate them faster"... so when you outclass your opponents gear it will be because you've been playing longer, or from before balancing, or just have no life and can put in 60 hours per week.

And they will feel better about your 'vette taking on their FAS because they will somehow know you didn't "cheat" to get it?!?

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Here's a little something the player-killer crowd needs to consider:

If some manner of punishment is meted out to those who repeatedly disconnect during combat - automatic loss of ship, account suspensions, bans... you can carve these words into stone, as if writ by the hands of the gods:

Someone will devise a means of causing your connection to fail, by attacking your IP address, and you will lose your ships, have your accounts suspended and/or be banned exactly like you're asking for because you logged in combat repeatedly, without ever realizing what had happened. So be careful what you wish for, because the one who gets it will be you.

"Griefing" will become a thing of the past, because this will become the default go-to method for dealing with griefing - a clever network attack that causes the griefer to be punished as a combat-logger.

"Oh but the logs will show.."

Oh, but they won't. A well designed packet attack hitting traffic at a router level outside of Frontier's control, or directed directly at your IP isn't going to show in anything Frontier would see. They'd just see that your connection dropped. Hmm, you must have disconnected your network cable to combat log.

Yes, it will happen exactly that way.

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So, if yo look at post 426, which the TV analogy quoted, you'll see my point is similar to yours. Then you started defending Comrade Error's TV analagy, to then turn around and restate my point using the TV analogy, which I still thing never should have been used.

The TV analogy was not the best analogy to use, but at least we can see where that particular poster was trying to go with it. Kind of like a unicycle is a bad choice of vehicle for a cross-country trip. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

[Falcon_D]

So now we've come back to:

Combat logging is griefing the player imposing unwanted PvP on a player. Unwanted PvP is griefing a player who does not want to PvP with another player and thus Combat Logs.

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

So now we've come back to:

Combat logging is griefing the player imposing unwanted PvP on a player. Unwanted PvP is griefing a player who does not want to PvP with another player and thus Combat Logs.

You're looking at this wrong. Let's split it into two scenarios:

Player 1 shoots Player 2 without consent
Player 1 is playing by the rules. If Player 2 does not want to be fired on by other players, there are other game modes available that he/she can play in.

Player 2 combat logs on Player 1.
In this case, Player 2 is cheating and Player 1 is playing the game by its rules.

Cheating is never the answer.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Player 3 appears in the same instance and sees pew-pew, initiates a FD-sanctioned menu logout with timer before they themselves are targeted.

Is that cheating?

 

[Corvos]

Do we hate logging? Yes
Do we want it to be fixed? Yes
Can it be fixed? No

Solution's? Their are hundreds but P2P prevents it.

So what would be a way to stop it if their is no way to stop it.

Give them a reason not to log....

Remove Rebuy!!!

Do i like my own idea? No, but people would log much less.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Corvos - wouldn't removing rebuy delete the entire point of pew-pew?

If you want to shoot things up in an entirely consequence-free environment, with no rebuys - there is CQC/Arena.

And pew-pew's absolutely hate it - apparently because there are no rebuys.

 

[Ripbudd]

P2P is cheap way to run servers so you dont have to pay monthly fee. Compromise worth having.

 

[gallafajones]

Do we hate logging? Yes
Do we want it to be fixed? Yes
Can it be fixed? No

Solution's? Their are hundreds but P2P prevents it.

So what would be a way to stop it if their is no way to stop it.

Give them a reason not to log....

Remove Rebuy!!!

Do i like my own idea? No, but people would log much less.

LoL ... i just prefer Frontier´s banhammer these users.

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

Greater risk = greater excitement in PvP

If you want an arcade-esque, watered down form of PvP that feels meaningless, there's always CQC/Wheel Spinning Simulator 3302

 

[Comrade Error]

Okay so do you accept that it will always be possible for players to combat log, even if they do so in the sure knowledge that their ship is lost.
Even though it denys you your satisfaction of a kill (and potentially any bounty). I'm trying to paint an extreme picture here. Thus is not a loaded question btw, just interested

Yea as I said no idea is fool proof but I feel that it would severly reduce combat loggers. Back in the day when piracy was the most fun imo there was still combat logs and I complained about it but god I want it back. I didn't need to take a lot of cargo we usually took 5-10 tons since it was just pretty fun. Now most people don't even give it a chance as to see how it pans out.

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It's impossible to punish combat logging from a technical standpoint without completely overhauling how the multiplayer functions. Players can't be threatened into participating in anything.

Of course you can. Guaranteed ship loss on forced disconnect. I appreciate it is hard to police.

What he said.

 

[bubbabenali]

Whinig about heat meta, running around in the same min-max builds and hating against loggers.
Man, open pvpers are a special kind of sisi hypocrites.

 

[Truesilver]

What is the impact on you/them? How is a player you don't kill because they high-wake different from a player you don't kill because they outrun you different from a player you don't kill because they are a better fighter different from a player you don't kill because they disconnect?

To a wandering duellist, as I am now, you are right that whether an opponent suffers destruction is often irrelevant.

However, something often overlooked on these forums is that a vast amount of PvP does not amount to two randoms meeting once. It consists of attacks on player groups' system, or their citizenry, or CG's, or Powerplay HQ's. These attacks may take place over a few hours, or days, or (on systems) even months.

Inflicting destruction on the enemy is absolutely vital to how matters unfold. I could provide many first-hand examples drawn from each of the categories above to demonstrate how attackers or defenders in real player-driven engagements have either prevailed (on the day, or over weeks) via ship destructions - or how the game was effectively ruined by a tiny minority of combat loggers.

Actually I'll try to give three examples now:

Example 1: Successful defence of Eravate via ship destructions

This is actually scores of examples but back when I was in Adle's Armada, we frequently encountered random 'wannabe' wings turning up and attempting to kill everything that moved. Our policy was simple and highly effective: if we had equal or greater numbers in system, kill them all. If we were outnumbered, identify their weakest and kill him - and him only - over and over again.

Experience showed that the rebuy cost was not what deterred these aggressors. They simply did not like being blown up. Indeed, almost no such attackers were willing to be blown up more than twice in quick succession. So if we killed the weakest of the wing twice, he would leave - and then the others, demoralised and a man down, would follow. And almost universally, never come back.

In this way - via destruction of sidey-slaughterers - AA has saved thousands of new players from random attack over the course of years.

Example 2: Defence of New Players in Eravate, hampered by Combat Logger

Player who I will call 'DT' used to camp Eravate Nav Beacon in an Anaconda killing new players. Killed hundreds - very difficult for Adle's Armada to stop because he high waked early. However, AA were able to disrupt his activities and chase him out of system over and again, massively reducing his kill rate. Eventually I orchestrated a trap whereby we got him into a fight with a non-AA guy and all dropped in when his SCB's were out, killing him.

Thereafter DT switched to combat logging, making him invulnerable.

Example 3: Defence of Harma by Archon Delaine Powerplayers, hampered by Combat Logger

I was one of a number of Powerplay Cmdrs who attacked Archon Delaine's HQ, Harma. (In fact, I understand that I was the first player ever on their KoS list - from day one of PP!) This eventually became an orchestrated offensive. On one occasion a Cmdr attended on the attacking side in a tricked-out Python. However, he turned out to be a pure RPK-er and attempted to backstab me (though I was also an attacker and we were pledged to the same Power). Heh ... this attempt did not go well for him ...

However, now shunned by both sides this traitor was vulnerable to the Archon Delaine guys' defence. Or should have been. Instead he stayed in their HQ for days, combat logging whenever they started to get the better of him, and killing their weaker Cmdrs throughout.

I hope you can see from the above that combat logging is capable of striking at the heart of a living, breathing galaxy. I appreciate that some may say that PvP has no place in that galaxy but that is not the Developers' view, nor that of many of us who have put a great deal into this game.

 

[Roland2]

To a wandering duellist, as I am now, you are right that whether an opponent suffers destruction is often irrelevant.

However, something often overlooked on these forums is that a vast amount of PvP does not amount to two randoms meeting once. It consists of attacks on player groups' system, or their citizenry, or CG's, or Powerplay HQ's. These attacks may take place over a few hours, or days, or (on systems) even months.

Inflicting destruction on the enemy is absolutely vital to how matters unfold. I could provide many first-hand examples drawn from each of the categories above to demonstrate how attackers or defenders in real player-driven engagements have either prevailed (on the day, or over weeks) via ship destructions - or how the game was effectively ruined by a tiny minority of combat loggers.

Actually I'll try to give three examples now:

Example 1: Successful defence of Eravate via ship destructions

This is actually scores of examples but back when I was in Adle's Armada, we frequently encountered random 'wannabe' wings turning up and attempting to kill everything that moved. Our policy was simple and highly effective: if we had equal or greater numbers in system, kill them all. If we were outnumbered, identify their weakest and kill him - and him only - over and over again.

Experience showed that the rebuy cost was not what deterred these aggressors. They simply did not like being blown up. Indeed, almost no such attackers were willing to be blown up more than twice in quick succession. So if we killed the weakest of the wing twice, he would leave - and then the others, demoralised and a man down, would follow. And almost universally, never come back.

In this way - via destruction of sidey-slaughterers - AA has saved thousands of new players from random attack over the course of years.

Example 2: Defence of New Players in Eravate, hampered by Combat Logger

Player who I will call 'DT' used to camp Eravate Nav Beacon in an Anaconda killing new players. Killed hundreds - very difficult for Adle's Armada to stop because he high waked early. However, AA were able to disrupt his activities and chase him out of system over and again, massively reducing his kill rate. Eventually I orchestrated a trap whereby we got him into a fight with a non-AA guy and all dropped in when his SCB's were out, killing him.

Thereafter DT switched to combat logging, making him invulnerable.

Example 3: Defence of Harma by Archon Delaine Powerplayers, hampered by Combat Logger

I was one of a number of Powerplay Cmdrs who attacked Archon Delaine's HQ, Harma. (In fact, I understand that I was the first player ever on their KoS list - from day one of PP!) This eventually became an orchestrated offensive. On one occasion a Cmdr attended on the attacking side in a tricked-out Python. However, he turned out to be a pure RPK-er and attempted to backstab me (though I was also an attacker and we were pledged to the same Power). Heh ... this attempt did not go well for him ...

However, now shunned by both sides this traitor was vulnerable to the Archon Delaine guys' defence. Or should have been. Instead he stayed in their HQ for days, combat logging whenever they started to get the better of him, and killing their weaker Cmdrs throughout.

I hope you can see from the above that combat logging is capable of striking at the heart of a living, breathing galaxy. I appreciate that some may say that PvP has no place in that galaxy but that is not the Developers' view, nor that of many of us who have put a great deal into this game.

Your first scenario is the only one where blowing up the player made any difference. The other two scenarios, and to some extent even the first, the player that CL'd had the same affect as blowing them up would. They aren't in the game to do whatever you think was wrong if they CLd out of the game. You still chased them away, just like if they high waked out, or if you killed them.

 

[Truesilver]

Your first scenario is the only one where blowing up the player made any difference. The other two scenarios, and to some extent even the first, the player that CL'd had the same affect as blowing them up would. They aren't in the game to do whatever you think was wrong if they CLd out of the game. You still chased them away, just like if they high waked out, or if you killed them.

Not at all, as I tried to explain. It's about deterrence.

The guys who get blown up twice in quick succession almost never came back.

The guys who log almost never leave. For months. Sadly I have screens of some of them discussing their logging in local chat while waiting for their next victim.

 

[John Rhys]

But then I won't be able to do PvP piracy. An advertised part of the game.

You don't really get it, don't you? PvP Piracy is still something completely different, as just ganking other players.

Why buy cargo when you can pirate it from a fellow Commander? Why explore distant systems when the data can be stolen? The galaxy is filled with vulnerable pilots, but The Pilots Federation takes care of its own.

Commanders who go rogue will accrue a bounty from The Pilots Federation, making them fair game for a would-be bounty hunter in Elite Dangerous' connected galaxy.

Combat, alone with Trading, Exploration and CQC offers progression to the rank of Elite. Rogue Commanders, assassination missions, or paid wetwork from one (or all) the galactic superpowers can bring wealth and respect.

CQC is advertised directly as PvP. And nobody says anything against fair PvP - but ganking/griefing isn't PvP.