Scrap or redesign shield cell modules, they are too overpowered and trivialize PvP.

[Defacto]

I agree theres a problem, but I would say its a case right problem - wrong solution. I would make hulls more durable generally especially for smaller ships (say 25% better for sidewinder/eagle, 20% better for all cargo ships and corbra/viper) and couple shield recharge rate to sys pips much more (i.e. make it so that with 4 pips in sys you get recharge at about double the current rate) so it was less of a case of "game over" when your shields went down and make it a bit easier for a small ship to escape a larger one and/or multiple assailants.

According to Sandro this "survivability" increase is the intended aim of cells but what they actually do is subvert the power management tradeoff allowing increased overall defence+offence capability.

I think it would be interesting if hull strength was greatly increased accross the board, not just in pure HP, but small calibre weapons such as as Railguns or Multicannons would only cause minor damage to the hull, especially with armor upgrades.
Make mobility kills more common, shield generator failures, offensive kills (weapons destroyed, forcing the defeated to either flee or surrender), life support failures, etc.

I think it should take a lot of firepower to reduce a ship hull to filings, but when shields drop, you should quickly start the risk of something important being hit, especially if you are attacked by high penetration weapons.
In this kind of environment, I think SCB's as something that trades short-term shield boost for a long-term disadvantage would fit nicely. Emptying your SYS bar (or however the reworked SCB would affect your ship) might be bad, but loosing shields is certainly really bad. One of the modules that might get disabled is the Shield generator!

Because everone else has them too its the same with chaffs.

If you all think they such a Gamebreaker then remove them all that includes Chaffs ECM and Point Defence or let it the way it was on ALL Alppha, Beta and Gamma why you start wining now?

In a way, Chaff and ECM are almost like a replacement for the silent running mechanic in dogfights. There's no need to go silent running to evade missiles if you can pop an ECM, and no need to go silent to loose gimbal lock when you can pop chaff.
If everything we have in the design documents and such gets added, these things could be changed to fill entirely new roles instead. Chaff could be used to blind active sensors, allowing you to get active sensor lock while the enemy only gets EM sensor pickup (which would not allow them to lock, just see where you are).

ECM could be used to cause direct damage to enemy passive sensors, fry missiles (at close range, requiring a lot of timing), and cause enemy sensors to display random false positives.

 

[NeilF]

I'm really conflicted now on this, on Thursday I was all for a rebalance but after yesterdays altercation with what now appears to be 3 - 6 Asps - Clippers I'm undecided. Shield cells are pretty much the last (and only) chance you have as someone who has found themselves in a situation against multiple adversaries who's sole intention is to kill you for the sole reason that you were there at the time.

Not sure about last chance, because surely if things have got bad then your shields are gone, and by which time shield cells are useless.

I dont think its as simple as trying to prevent the "war of attrition" until the cells run out and I think that to reduce their effectiveness is probably the wrong way to deal with it. Increasing the cost is almost a moot point for most people who would use them unless they were significantly increased.

I wouldn't mind exploring the possibility of increasing the bay size requirement for them as then they become an item that is used at the sacrifice of something quite important, space. They are after all batteries. Alternatively what about if they took a hard point spot (or 2), although from a game law point of view Its difficult to explain why. They would however then become an a functional element that reflected their form and defined their use, which would be as within a defensive build.

Just a thought.

So you're trying to limit the units to ideally one per ship? And any more come at an even more unreasonable cost so is even more "painful" to bear?

As you point out, the problem with shield cells is they are used in internal bays which for anyone dealing with combat are basically empty and unused. Your average bounty hunter will have space easily for 2 or 3 shield cell units I'd suggest. And I suggest of course, if a CMDR with 3 shield cell units fights a CMDR with 1 shield cell unit, the former will be far far more likely to win, simply because he can out-tank (last) the latter? And surely this highlights one of the more significant issues?

On a side note, can you imagine an Anaconda with 3-4 of these units?

 

[tagos]

Sorry? "You can pop more"? Do you mean rather that just 6 shield cells to deploy, you instead have 12?

Yea, I'd rather have 12 than 6 if i'm configured as a trader or a fighter. Gives me more time to evade or more time to hang in a firefight and kill. You can't carry two lots of shield cells of the same type though.

There's nothing 'unfair' about shield cells. If people want cargo or scalps it is up to them to earn them, not keep complaining until devs make it easier for them.

People who know how to use rail guns properly can remove a target's shields at long range so shield cells become a non-issue but like I said, there's always people who'd rather try and get get the devs to wield the nerf bat for them rather than make the effort to use the elements already in the game.

 

[vonvonbraun]

Some well thought out points there...

My statement does not need any "points"

Please leave shield cells as they are

Thanks

 

[Satanski]

You build a ship based on what you want it to do. But you have to make choices, you cannot have everything. People who choose to go with nothing but shield cells are committing their ship to combat. There is nothing wrong with this and if you as a CMDR also build your ships in the same fashion then neither pilot will have any advantage over the other. The better pilot will win. Think of shield cells as the combat spec, that is basically what they are. Sort of like choosing Warrior over a Rogue in a fantasy RPG. You play a rogue you have certain advantages the warrior does not get but you must also answer to the warrior should he challenge you in combat.

But having more options (different modules used situationally) on your hand makes combat more intersting. Just spamming overpowered SCDs makes combat dull. Besides, what keeps player from just runnig away when he is getting low on SCDs?

 

[Adept]

I must admit, the more I think about, the more I like the idea of changing SCBs so that they merely refill the SYS bar.

That is the only valid use I can think for them. Still useful, makes sense in the setting, but no potion chugging / standard MMO mechanic. That way we stick to Sci-Fi and simulator stuff, not MMO troupes.

 

[Jimac]

Hello Commander Johnny Spaceboots! and Commander Defacto!

Argh, just saw this as I was turning stuff off in the office! Must... Reply... (don't worry, that just means I enjoy the conversation).

Don't worry, we don't have to agree! And also, you may be right!

Sure, cells keep your shields up, but in my experience, when I'm taking a lot of hits from a ship I can't hit very well, having more shields doesn't help me destroy them...

Although at it's heart there will always be a whiff of the restorative about shield cells (because, well, they're consumables), it has always been the intention to involve timing skill in their use: this is why there is a delay when using a cell before the regenerative effect kicks in.

When the tweaks roll out, Commanders will have less of them, using them will be more expensive, and potentially they might have to alter or mess with their power plant settings to carry them.

If this proves to have little to no effect (and honestly, the jury is out for me at the moment, I will look forward to seeing the results) then we'll go further.

My first line of thought runs to some additional negative effect that triggers if a cell is used and the shield is not badly damaged, coupled with a longer delay between triggering a cell and receiving its benefits. In theory, this would mean that you would need to use a cell within a window of opportunity or risk A) leaving it too late and having the shield break or B) using it too soon and having something bad happen (like damage to your shield generator, or no benefit of the cell, etc.)

But, one step at a time.

And now, really for real this time, have a great weekend!

Sandro..OK we seem to agree that Shield cells are a problem at the moment, they control and exert too much influence over the outcome of any combat. They're so powerful they effect the balance of most other elements in combat, ie hull v shields, energy v ammo weapons, even flying evasive v turreting/flying backwards.

But your suggested solution of making the timing of the shield cell crucial, and adding negative effects if you get it wrong would actually increase the imbalancing effect of this mechanic.

How effectively you use you shield cell would become, (even more than it is now), the deciding factor in most combat situations I can imagine, but with an added roll of a dice that you might damage yourself.

I know how difficult it can be to give up on an idea which isn't working but I'd urge you to keep on the table the option of just removing them altogether, rather than set out on a series of tweaks to save a mechanic which in my opinion reduces the gameplay rather than adds to it.

 

[mugendo]

The 'play balance issues'....now it's confirmed the PvP crew are here
Don't take away trader protection while the FSD charges up.

 

[tagos]

As you point out, the problem with shield cells is they are used in internal bays which for anyone dealing with combat are basically empty and unused. Your average bounty hunter will have space easily for 2 or 3 shield cell units I'd suggest. And I suggest of course, if a CMDR with 3 shield cell units fights a CMDR with 1 shield cell unit, the former will be far far more likely to win, simply because he can out-tank (last) the latter? And surely this highlights one of the more significant issues?

The only issue it highlights is the other pilot not being clever enough or good enough to deal with the situation. shield cells are on cooldown timers, even with 3 banks you cant keep popping them. A good pilot knows how to get shields down so cells become irrelevant. It's the same in every MMO I've played. The continual complaint of 'unfair' with various rationales from people unwilling or unable to make an effort.

Shield cells are only a problem to people unwilling to practice and learn how to deal with them or to people who feel it is somehow 'unfair' their leet skills don't let them kill anyone they want in 30 seconds.

 

[Adept]

NPC's are garbage, they will get better over time or so I hope.

They used to be much more dangerous.

The same logic that gave us shield cells turned the rather dangerous NPCs from the earlier Beta into the farmable cannon fodder we have now. I was really nervous going up against _sidewinders_ with twin railguns at one point. Those NPCs were killers. Likwise I was outflown by an NPC Cobra using FA-off and translational thrust masterfully when I was in my pimped out sidey. I was cheering all the while. Those are the sort of NPCs we need, not the farmable idiots flying around with no ahields we have now

 

[tagos]

They used to be much more dangerous.

The same logic that gave us shield cells turned the rather dangerous NPCs from the earlier Beta into the farmable cannon fodder we have now. I was really nervous going up against _sidewinders_ with twin railguns at one point. Those NPCs were killers. Likwise I was outflown by an NPC Cobra using FA-off and translational thrust masterfully when I was in my pimped out sidey. I was cheering all the while. Those are the sort of NPCs we need, not the farmable idiots flying around with no ahields we have now

Absolutely. Give me dangerous npc's stuffed with rail guns and shield cells any day.

 

[vonvonbraun]

Sandro..OK we seem to agree that Shield cells are a problem at the moment, they control and exert too much influence over the outcome of any combat. They're so powerful they effect the balance of most other elements in combat, ie hull v shields, energy v ammo weapons, even flying evasive v turreting/flying backwards.

But your suggested solution of making the timing of the shield cell crucial, and adding negative effects if you get it wrong would actually increase the imbalancing effect of this mechanic.

How effectively you use you shield cell would become, (even more than it is now), the deciding factor in most combat situations I can imagine, but with an added roll of a dice that you might damage yourself.

I know how difficult it can be to give up on an idea which isn't working but I'd urge you to keep on the table the option of just removing them altogether, rather than set out on a series of tweaks to save a mechanic which in my opinion reduces the gameplay rather than adds to it.

You throw this onto yourselves

 

[NeilF]

Because everone else has them too its the same with chaffs.

If you all think they such a Gamebreaker then remove them all that includes Chaffs ECM and Point Defence or let it the way it was on ALL Alppha, Beta and Gamma why you start wining now?

*sigh* Am I the only one who gets frustrated with all this inane accusations of "whining". Are people so unable to have a polite (dare I say grown up) conversation on a matter? Typically no logic, rational points are offered, just "stop whining!" - *Another sigh*

 

[Adept]

Because everone else has them too its the same with chaffs.

If you all think they such a Gamebreaker then remove them all that includes Chaffs ECM and Point Defence or let it the way it was on ALL Alppha, Beta and Gamma why you start wining now?

Dude. Shield cells are a late addition. Definitely not "since alpha".

 

[Perseus]

My statement does not need any "points"

Please leave shield cells as they are

Thanks

Does that make it . . . pointless? :S

 

[vonvonbraun]

It's not invincible, and yes those pilots weren't even kitted to take that on let alone coordinated fire, and yes at the root this is a numbers game(cr being all powerful) as with all multiplayer pvp games, it's just the way it has been and will be, even if that python was killed it would just respawn.

This x1000

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Z

Frankly have you considered:-
- Improving your approach to conversations because simply telling anyone who doesn't agree with you to stop whining is frankly pointless (if not indeed rude).
- If you don't think you can actually add anything to a conversation other than using it as a forum for personal comments, maybe don't converse and unsubscribe?

TBH, I'm surprised the moderators aren't treating it as bating. You're posting nothing other than personal oriented comments. Frankly if your continue you path of posting seemingly just to make personal comments rather than about the topic at hand I'll raise it with them.

I can post my opinion in whatever form I please and articulated or less depending on how my mood swings.

You are not going to dictate how freely I can express myself. There is no requirement to express an opinion as such.

And my opinion is that shield cells should stay as they are.

 

[NeilF]

The only issue it highlights is the other pilot not being clever enough or good enough to deal with the situation. shield cells are on cooldown timers, even with 3 banks you cant keep popping them. A good pilot knows how to get shields down so cells become irrelevant. It's the same in every MMO I've played.

Fair point, but, how is firing off the cells in one shield cell any different to firing off cells across three shield cells in sequence? ie: 1-4 cells in unit 1, and then 1-4 cells in unit 2 and so on? How would this behave any differently to a single unit with 8 cells?

But Sandro implies this is a direction they may nudge the cells. ie: Prevent them from being used over and over so quickly, in effect creating a perpetual shield wall?

The continual complaint of 'unfair' with various rationales from people unwilling or unable to make an effort.

Are you suggesting FD are so masterful they've managed to get Shield Cells absolutely spot on, balance, and without fault on basically their first attempt? Are you not open to the notion, maybe after being tested in the field, they may need adjusting?

And are you suggesting we cannot simply discuss how we feel such an important unit (count how many people feel the need to have on now) may be better balanced within all the other aspects of the game?

 

[vonvonbraun]

Fair point, but, how is firing off the cells in one shield cell any different to firing off cells across three shield cells in sequence? ie: 1-4 cells in unit 1, and then 1-4 cells in unit 2 and so on? How would this behave any differently to a single unit with 8 cells?

But Sandro implies this is a direction they may nudge the cells. ie: Prevent them from being used over and over so quickly, in effect creating a perpetual shield wall?

Are you suggesting FD are so masterful they've managed to get Shield Cells absolutely spot on, balance, and without fault on basically their first attempt? Are you not open to the notion, maybe after being tested in the field, they may need adjusting?

And are you suggesting we cannot simply discuss how we feel such an important unit (count how many people feel the need to have on now) may be better balanced within all the other aspects of the game?

Discussions are irrelevant.


Sammarco will do as he pleases and tweak as he sees fit because this is is vision of gamedesign and anything else does not matter.

You can only state your agreement or disagreement, but if you think your opinion will matter as such then you are deluded.

You know, is a. Bit like the Borgs

 

[NeilF]

This x1000

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Z


I can post my opinion in whatever form I please and articulated or less depending on how my mood swings.

You are not going to dictate how freely I can express myself. There is no requirement to express an opinion as such.

And my opinion is that shield cells should stay as they are.

You can articulate/express yourself how you best see fit, but please (again) stop doing little more than making personally orientated posts telling people they are "whining".

So by all means continue with your personal antics because I'll happily let the mods dictate how freely you can express yourself repeatedly in such a (needless) fashion.

You can only state your agreement or disagreement.

Wise words. Try it without the needless personal jibes though.

 

[Kortossis]

Sorry? "You can pop more"? Do you mean rather that just 6 shield cells to deploy, you instead have 12? Or do you mean you're using two at a time?

If it's the former, if you're staying out in the field (eg: bounty hunting) then it would be a pain to have to return to a station to refuel a shield cell so I can understand why you'd then carry more than one, but do you find during a single engagement (fight) you then use more than one?

Wow I think this is more about I spent all my funds on a anaconda and I cant win anymore. Your on fire, instead of preying here why don't you spend more time in game learning to defeat this curse that plaques you?
Your doing no one any good debating every thread thrown in here.

Someone said it earlier..two types of people, your the one that comes to the forums to complain.

[EDITED to be more nice I guess]

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oh BTW I just kited a cobra out with 18 of these dang things, gonna be looking to try them out. Sounds like fun.

Flame Suit On {chuckles}