Scrap or redesign shield cell modules, they are too overpowered and trivialize PvP.

[Jex =TE=]

Yes. As long as you do it in time before the shields collapse, they re-fill your shield rings.

Thanks, not having done any combat that's worthy of talking about that side of ED is unknown to me. So the mechanic just sounds terrible. We don't want fights lasting forever but at the same time, we don't want to be vaporised in seconds. Get rid of this healing potion and weaken the weapons a little.

One thing I always thought a space battle needs is things to fly around. In deep space there is literally nothing, asteroid belts at least provide something but there should be other things, like huge hulks of dead and broken ships to fly through and use to hide or feint. Not sure how you could incorporate them but going in circles is pretty boring.

In any decent flight sim, you have energy, you have turn - you turn too much you bleed ur energy quickly. Different maneuvers are thus created to fight tactically. In ED, not sure if this exists, doesn't appear to be a way to get on someones tail. I remember a game I used to play with my mates by NovaLogic - Joint Operations. 150 ground warfare with choppers and boats. One time in a chopper I was flying at the time, little bird with my friends on the outside seats we get an aa missile launched at us. Ahead of me was a large chimney. As soon as I was passed it I banked, trying to put the chimney between us and it worked! I couldn't see behind but I heard it explode and my mates were all whooping as they saw it too. ED doesn't seem to offer any real flying in deep space but I suppose that's just the way it is.

 

[Defacto]

It's interesting to see how the discussion flows in this thread. Some times the problem is that smaller ships and ships not fitted for combat would suffer without SCB's. Some times, it's apparently small ships that would murderize all the expensive combat ships without SCB's. Some times, SCB are there because combat times would be too short otherwise. Some times, you can apparently bring down the shields almost instantly anyways.

My own opinion on SCB's is, I think, mostly based on my own experience, both with using them, and fighting those who use them, as well as the experience of combat through the various versions of the game since I started playing (Beta 1).
My own (very subjective, I realize that) opinion is this; It muddles down combat into a messy quagmire. Some times, the combat lasts for 10 minutes without any effects other than boredom. In order to ''defeat'' builds with multiple SCB's, people have to use weapon combinations that are made to extremely rapidly bring down shields, which kind of defeats the design purpose of SCB's from the beginning (to increase the average time of a single combat engagement).
Before SCB's were introduced, I actually felt that fights could take quite a long time.

Oh. And they were better. I've already said this, but Shield Cells just makes combat suck. I don't care about winning, although I would like to stay competitive with players. I don't care about griefing Sidewinders or chasing traders or whatever people think that one of the ''camps'' are doing, but I would like to enjoy fighting stuff. SCB's makes me not enjoy fighting stuff, because SCB's are horrible.

If large ships are too weak, then just make them stronger (and remove their ability to disengage from combat at will, thank you very much).
Give them better shields, better hull strength, and above all: Better armor, so that weapons with low armor penetration doesn't wreck their Hull.

 

[bassman]

Thanks, not having done any combat that's worthy of talking about that side of ED is unknown to me. So the mechanic just sounds terrible. We don't want fights lasting forever but at the same time, we don't want to be vaporised in seconds. Get rid of this healing potion and weaken the weapons a little.

In any decent flight sim, you have energy, you have turn - you turn too much you bleed ur energy quickly. Different maneuvers are thus created to fight tactically. In ED, not sure if this exists, doesn't appear to be a way to get on someones tail. I remember a game I used to play with my mates by NovaLogic - Joint Operations. 150 ground warfare with choppers and boats. One time in a chopper I was flying at the time, little bird with my friends on the outside seats we get an aa missile launched at us. Ahead of me was a large chimney. As soon as I was passed it I banked, trying to put the chimney between us and it worked! I couldn't see behind but I heard it explode and my mates were all whooping as they saw it too. ED doesn't seem to offer any real flying in deep space but I suppose that's just the way it is.

Thats the point really, kinetic energy management in a normal flight sim is replaced by the sys/eng/wep energy management mechanic i.e. if you want get behind someone you put 4 pips in engine and then only have 2 left to go in sys and/or wep. My main problem with shield cells is that they subvert this tradeoff.

I'd prefer ships were made tougher by adjusting an existing parameter like hull strength and more effective hull upgrades. At the moment there is basically no reason at all to use a hull upgrade especially in a larger ships whos shields cannot be easily alpha-crashed - shields cells give a vastly greater effective hit point increase for a fraction of the weight and cost.

 

[CMDR Reza Malin]

In my own view, shield cells should simply not exist in any form. I don't even understand why they were added apart from to hold people's hands even more in what is already a threat devoid game if you have at least one brain cell.

If they are removed, no one loses out, and everyone will still be on equal footing. The only real reason anyone wants shield cells is to kill things they couldn't kill without them. Which is stupid. Just pick your fights better, or only fight what you know you can win. Shield cells remove this brainpower requirement, which in turn makes the game feel even more dumbed down.

I hear that traders like them, in case they get interdicted. Well if you are a trader who doesn't hide in solo, then first of all well done to you for joining us in open, and second of all its far easier to pick a safe trade route or area and simply not be interdicted, than it is to escape from a pirate, especially as more player pirates are getting hold of asps now which means anything T6 or smaller gets masslocked. Just don't do silly rare runs in obvious core systems that stock them. I trade standard style commodities just 60 or so LY from Sol, and rarely see any CMDR's. Still make 380k every 10-12 minutes in an asp. Its not the best trade route but quick and hassle free, unlike rare runs.

Brain is OP in this game. The only reasons anyone ever dies really in ED is pilot error and/or ignoring/misjudging obvious risks, however shield cells pretty much remove the last reason.

Remove shield cells please FD, for the love of God, they add nothing to the game that's positive.

 

[jprelph]

My personal desire was for them to change it to a module that allowed you to transfer all of your current system energy into shields following the current power curve, but would require at least half to activate. That way your sys power is useful and can be used like a temporary battery to juggle round fill up / discharge.

I prefer that to the current system, basically treat them like engine boost, where you can dump half your Sys capacitor into shields in one go. Better modules, power distribution, power plant etc. all effect the module use just as any other system.

 

[sgt Melin]

agree to the op.

 

[Phier]

I can't say I've read this thread, but shield cells trivialize PVE even more than pvp.

 

[ZappaBappa]

If they are removed, no one loses out, and everyone will still be on equal footing. The only real reason anyone wants shield cells is to kill things they couldn't kill without them. Which is stupid. Just pick your fights better, or only fight what you know you can win. Shield cells remove this brainpower requirement, which in turn makes the game feel even more dumbed down.

Yeah, sure. make Bounty hunting even more of a slower grind. Anacondas, Cobras and vipers are the only things really worth going for, and the first one you rarely run into with a wanted state. I'd like to be able to purchase a Better ship, like a python, or an Anaconda too, and that's already going to take ages for me with bounty hunting alone being such a slow grind.

 

[CMDR Reza Malin]

I think that's the problem. You may say that they should be feared and such but that's not what I'm hearing from people complaining. They want the 2 minute fight (if that) and move on to the next. There's actually more skill involved using SCB's than if they just bumped the survivability of the big ships arbitrarily (shield capacity most likely) ... the player has to actively monitor the shields and such and even then, they may not be able to hit it in time if there was a coordinated attack. Unlike "health potions" you can't use it once your shield is down. That's your last line of defense.

It's as 'cheesy' as regenerating shields, IMO. It's just a way to boost it and it takes up cargo space. Regarding another poster mentioning that "if you're spec'd for battle you don't USE those spaces" ... well, good! Why shouldn't you be more equipped for survival and outfitted for destruction if you were going into battle? It makes perfect sense. If you want to fight fighter-spec'd people with SCBs you better bring them. I don't see people complaining about different loadouts or different weapons equipped. It's mainly "that Python lasted a while and got away, I don't want that to happen".

You are joking/trolling right?

There is no skill involved in using SCB's, its ridiculous to even try and say that. Its not skillful to use one before your shields go down, its just good timing and paying attention. I seriously think you only want them to be able to kill larger NPC's.

If an NPC anaconda used shield cells like a player, you would have no chance. Its just abusing the lack of NPC ability with a cheap crutch for people to do more than their situation would normally allow them. Its that simple. There is absolutely no skill involved. The skill would come in by flying the ship well enough you don't need SCB's. Then if it turns out you do need them, you either aren't as good as you think, or you picked the wrong fight.

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

Yeah, sure. make Bounty hunting even more of a slower grind. Anacondas, Cobras and vipers are the only things really worth going for, and the first one you rarely run into with a wanted state. I'd like to be able to purchase a Better ship, like a python, or an Anaconda too, and that's already going to take ages for me with bounty hunting alone being such a slow grind.

You hardly need shield cells for bounty hunting the lobotomized NPCs. The only ones that are even a little bit of a threat are anacondas because of the turrets, and you can easily get in its blindspot and kill it just as fast.

Shield cells are a crutch for bad players. Stop relying on them.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Thats the point really, kinetic energy management in a normal flight sim is replaced by the sys/eng/wep energy management mechanic i.e. if you want get behind someone you put 4 pips in engine and then only have 2 left to go in sys and/or wep. My main problem with shield cells is that they subvert this tradeoff.

I'd prefer ships were made tougher by adjusting an existing parameter like hull strength and more effective hull upgrades. At the moment there is basically no reason at all to use a hull upgrade especially in a larger ships whos shields cannot be easily alpha-crashed - shields cells give a vastly greater effective hit point increase for a fraction of the weight and cost.

Even with the management, it's still pretty simplified I think but I agree with you on the hull strength. Looking at the stats of ships they don't make much sense. A huge ship should have more armour or be able to take more damage but when you compare values they don't seem to make a lot of sense between say a Cobra, Asp and python.

I would have thought big ships have bigger weapons and more hull and shields, small ships are more agile and faster except a cobra, asp and python all have agility of 6 and roughly the same speed iirc. Combat in ED seems off but it's early days and the devs should be collating data to see what's going on so maybe we'll see some tweaks soon.

Magically repair your shields though seems cheap. Star Citizen seems to have a better model as they have ship damage for where you hit the ship.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commanders!

Another quick update: with the next tweaks of shield cell banks (coming soon(tm)) the spool up delay has also been increased from one second to five (which in fairness is another number that fell between the cracks during the last round of balancing).

Again, this isn't the be all and end all. But we look forward to seeing how the tweaks change folks perception of shield cell banks.

 

[ZappaBappa]

You hardly need shield cells for bounty hunting the lobotomized NPCs. The only ones that are even a little bit of a threat are anacondas because of the turrets, and you can easily get in its blindspot and kill it just as fast.

Shield cells are a crutch for bad players. Stop relying on them.

The Anacondas are the only ones i use them against, because i'd like to take advantage of the Anaconda instance that rarely happens, and keep my hull up as much as possible, so i can take out as many as possible. That doesnt change the fact that Bounty hunting is already a slow ass grind to begin with, with anaconda's being honestly the only real thing worth fighting against because cobras just give you a measly 5/20k SCB's allow me to stay out in the field longer, so i can increase my profit a little bit more.

 

[CMDR Reza Malin]

Yeah, sure. make Bounty hunting even more of a slower grind. Anacondas, Cobras and vipers are the only things really worth going for, and the first one you rarely run into with a wanted state. I'd like to be able to purchase a Better ship, like a python, or an Anaconda too, and that's already going to take ages for me with bounty hunting alone being such a slow grind.

Ok so great logic, every game that has any grind should just get some hack crutch item that lets everyone sail through the game hassle free, because you can't do everything within the first week of playing it?

Bounty hunting sucks for making money any way you look at it. They should increase the profit from it, thats the solution, not some 'iwin' button. As it stands, you can also make plenty of money from asps as well, you missed those from your list. Killed plenty of 20-30k asps. As well as some 12-14k eagles that take about 10 seconds to kill, so how they aren't worth it i don't know.

If you are wanting your python through bounty hunting, see you in about 2018. Not only that, you would never be able to afford to run one on bounty hunting profits alone.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Hello Commanders!

Another quick update: with the next tweaks of shield cell banks (coming soon(tm)) the spool up delay has also been increased from one second to five (which in fairness is another number that fell between the cracks during the last round of balancing).

Again, this isn't the be all and end all. But we look forward to seeing how the tweaks change folks perception of shield cell banks.

Thanks for the input.

So it will take 5 seconds after activating to see any benefit from a shield cell appearing on your shields? Is that correct?

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

Hello Commanders!

Another quick update: with the next tweaks of shield cell banks (coming soon(tm)) the spool up delay has also been increased from one second to five (which in fairness is another number that fell between the cracks during the last round of balancing).

Again, this isn't the be all and end all. But we look forward to seeing how the tweaks change folks perception of shield cell banks.

Thank you, Sandro. It's a step in the right direction, though I still think the concept of a health potion in a (formally) skillbased game like Elite is undesirable, and throws the balance of sys, eng, wep and energy vs ballistic weaponry out the window. No point in equipping cannons anymore. I felt like combat in 1.06 was almost perfect, with the exception of some issues with the viper, cannons, and FAff, but the TTK and overall flow of it was exciting and skill based. I never felt the need for something like shield cells. I hope that one day shield cells take a different, more skillful, approach to augmenting shields instead of simply replenishing them, or that we get a counter module that can nullify shield cells entirely.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

The Anacondas are the only ones i use them against, because i'd like to take advantage of the Anaconda instance that rarely happens, and keep my hull up as much as possible, so i can take out as many as possible. That doesnt change the fact that Bounty hunting is already a slow ass grind to begin with, with anaconda's being honestly the only real thing worth fighting against because cobras just give you a measly 5/20k SCB's allow me to stay out in the field longer, so i can increase my profit a little bit more.

I would argue that the rewards for bounty hunting should be upped instead of keeping it ezmode.

 

[Defacto]

Hello Commanders!

Another quick update: with the next tweaks of shield cell banks (coming soon(tm)) the spool up delay has also been increased from one second to five (which in fairness is another number that fell between the cracks during the last round of balancing).

Again, this isn't the be all and end all. But we look forward to seeing how the tweaks change folks perception of shield cell banks.

Hmm...
Will be interesting to see how this changes things.
For me, I think the problem lies in how the SCB's work more than them being ''overpowered'', but I think I'll avoid commenting on this more until we get to test it out.

 

[ZappaBappa]

Ok so great logic, every game that has any grind should just get some hack crutch item that lets everyone sail through the game hassle free, because you can't do everything within the first week of playing it?

Bounty hunting sucks for making money any way you look at it. They should increase the profit from it, thats the solution, not some 'iwin' button. As it stands, you can also make plenty of money from asps as well, you missed those from your list. Killed plenty of 20-30k asps. As well as some 12-14k eagles that take about 10 seconds to kill, so how they aren't worth it i don't know.

If you are wanting your python through bounty hunting, see you in about 2018. Not only that, you would never be able to afford to run one on bounty hunting profits alone.

Hassle free? I Find Pythons and Anacondas pretty challenging to fight on my own in my Viper, i only resort to the SCB when i need them to avoid having my shield taken out. And sure, ASP's are nice too, but you have higher odds of running into Wanted Anacondas than ASP's, and the eagles are usually always federation. (I farm Resource mining areas)

I know its a long shot to be able to support a Python on bounty hunting alone, but what else can i really do? Trading isn't my game, and the only thing that brings me a decent amount of money is bounty hunting. At this point it feels like I've already reached bounty hunting endgame because no ship after these are feasible to fly because of the prices, and no weapons really beat the effectiveness of a laser and multicannon combo. There's really nothing left for me to strive for aslong as i play BH

Sure they could use a redesign, or maybe improved effectiveness + long cooldown, but i have a feeling these things are going to be nerfed to death, and that bounty hunting once again going to be left in the dark with barely any future for players left to enjoy. I see these things as a means to make money a bit faster compared to the crawling income speed bounty hunting normally is.

I would argue that the rewards for bounty hunting should be upped instead of keeping it ezmode.

Oh how i would love that... Atleast make the bounties vary more instead of just giving each ship a randomized number in between amounts

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

Oh how i would love that... Atleast make the bounties vary more instead of just giving each ship a randomized number in between amounts

Agreed. bounty hunting is deeply flawed at the moment, I think. I wish it was also more of a hunt, with high risk, and very high rewards, than the current farming aspect of it. I remember bounty hunting was a lot more involved and interesting in the previous Elite games, so I hope they upgrade the depth and rewards of BH as a profession instead of keeping shield cells for easy farming.

 

[Bangfish]

While i welcome the upcoming scb nerf with open arms, I still believe they are fundamentally flawed and will stay like that even after the nerf.

Right now when someone loses shields in combat they immediately boost away and wait until their shields are up to rejoin the fray. This to me seems a bit silly and very unfun. Relying so heavily on shields makes the combat worse. Would love to see something along the lines of:

Shield cells: now regenerates shields 80% faster while shields are down.

This would promote skillfull play (have to hit with the big guns within small time frame to deal some maybe vital damage), make people stay in combat, allow for some much needed varienty in viable arsenal and generally make it more fun.
Speaking from the pvp point of view of course. With the current harmless NPCs it doesn't really matter whether one has them or not in pve.

 

[aowqyaaw]

That would be a stamina potion.
<scnr>

I've actually made it through all these 53 pages now but I can't help myself that whenever people are trying to advocate the existence of SCBs these modules look like a cheap first aid plaster to me that tries to cover an underlying, deeper issue. I'd rather like to see these maladies to be cured in the first place, but then the plaster has to be removed at first to get to the core of the real problem more clearly, some of which already were mentioned. My suggestion would be to temporarily take them out for the next 3 month and then start another discussion about it (unless nobody would miss them anymore).

I can see it now...