Shooter Mechanics

Also, why are people obsessed with a "non lethal option"? What does it add, gameplay wise?
It isn't what it adds...

It would remove notoriety in a settlement raid, if they ain't ded, you ain't a crim type... (and would make those, "no fatalities" missions so much easier)
(It would also please those gentle souls who wish to do violence unto others without killing them!)

Obviously "NPC Lives Matter", or something. But has been requested several times in the forum since EDO released.
(I'm just off to do some murder...)
 
It isn't what it adds...

It would remove notoriety in a settlement raid, if they ain't ded, you ain't a crim type... (and would make those, "no fatalities" missions so much easier)
(It would also please those gentle souls who wish to do violence unto others without killing them!)

Obviously "NPC Lives Matter", or something. But has been requested several times in the forum since EDO released.
(I'm just off to do some murder...)
If someone breaks into my house and knocks me brutally unconscious, they are still criminals and will still go to jail if caught.

If someone breaks into an EDO settlement uninvited, in order to shutdown and steal a power core, or interfere with and steal a manufacturing process, they may not be murderers but they are still criminals and their notoriety should still go up.

Its another ridiculous argument i keep seeing about "why i hate odyssey", that is not really anything to do with Odyssey but more to do with strange people's wants and expectations from the game mode.
 
If someone breaks into my house and knocks me brutally unconscious, they are still criminals and will still go to jail if caught.

If someone breaks into an EDO settlement uninvited, in order to shutdown and steal a power core, or interfere with and steal a manufacturing process, they may not be murderers but they are still criminals and their notoriety should still go up.

Its another ridiculous argument i keep seeing about "why i hate odyssey", that is not really anything to do with Odyssey but more to do with strange people's wants and expectations from the game mode.
This is turning like an episode of 'Law and Order'.
 
I'm still on the fence over whether the stealth aspects are intended or just happy little side effects from the AI being as it is.
They are clearly intended. You can easily test it yourself by moving past isolated guards and observing how far you are from them before they turn round.

Hence why quieter footsteps is an engineer mod.
 
I haven't tried that one yet, I usually crouch.
Yeah me too. I only really found it out while walking through settlements and the people kept turning round and talking to me. So i just tried moving round crouched, walking and sprinting and noticed they turn round from further away depending. Main reason being if guards don't turn round to look at you they wont scan you.

I haven't really tried stealth missions yet. Need to at some point for the engineer unlocks. I enjoy the scavenging/salvage/restoration type gameplay best. killing scavs too. :D

Must be the same prnciple for gunshots etc, but i haven't tested that yet. I have shot people outside without masking and no one else was alerted. Same indoors without noise suppression. Id be curious to know if there is a penetration type stat for noise travelling through walls. Hard to test though.
 
Yeah me too. I only really found it out while walking through settlements and the people kept turning round and talking to me. So i just tried moving round crouched, walking and sprinting and noticed they turn round from further away depending. Main reason being if guards don't turn round to look at you they wont scan you.

I haven't really tried stealth missions yet. Need to at some point for the engineer unlocks. I enjoy the scavenging/salvage/restoration type gameplay best. killing scavs too. :D

Must be the same prnciple for gunshots etc, but i haven't tested that yet. I have shot people outside without masking and no one else was alerted. Same indoors without noise suppression. Id be curious to know if there is a penetration type stat for noise travelling through walls. Hard to test though.
Covert missions don't necessarily have to be stealthed once you have turned off the alarms. Arguably the "toughest" missions are the non-violent variations.
 

Deleted member 182079

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Playing Pong? Ha ha, way to try and completely strawman the context.
The point was if devs wouldn't push the limit on what's currently deemed possible we'd not have made the progress in gaming (and that really applies to any technological advances) with a "good enough" attitude.

We aren't talking about re inventing the wheel of FPS gaming. We are talking about a huge game, with complex balancing and background simulation and adding an entirely different game mode within that framework, that has existed for years already.

I seriously question what you were expecting Odyssey to add, and that your expectations are not based in any reality.
I didn't expect anything in particular, but perhaps something a bit more developed and thought out than what we got in the end.
Also, why are people obsessed with a "non lethal option"? What does it add, gameplay wise?
Elite lends itself quite well to role-playing, and believe it or not, not everyone wants to RP as a mass-murderer. It'd also avoid racking up silly bounties and notoriety for killing NPCs left right and centre. A crazy concept by the looks of things.
 

Deleted member 182079

D
If someone breaks into my house and knocks me brutally unconscious, they are still criminals and will still go to jail if caught.

If someone breaks into an EDO settlement uninvited, in order to shutdown and steal a power core, or interfere with and steal a manufacturing process, they may not be murderers but they are still criminals and their notoriety should still go up.

Its another ridiculous argument i keep seeing about "why i hate odyssey", that is not really anything to do with Odyssey but more to do with strange people's wants and expectations from the game mode.
Lol. I got a speeding fine the other day. I better hand myself into the local prison and request to be executed.
 

Deleted member 182079

D
thankyou for your honesty. please stand still while i shoot you.:)

they are not police, they are security guards or merc's
Funnily enough I've witnessed an Omnipol agent scanning a security guard earlier this afternoon. I thought that was pretty cool for example.
 
Also, why are people obsessed with a "non lethal option"? What does it add, gameplay wise?
I'll speak for myself.
Going on a killing spree is easy mode for me, there is little to no subtlety required on my part.
Not that I don't enjoy it from time to time, but I like to approach missions more tactically and my main Maverick loadout is completely unarmed. 😊
 

Deleted member 182079

D
(It would also please those gentle souls who wish to do violence unto others without killing them!)
I can't remember which one of the Fallouts it was (3 or New Vegas), but with the right char skills you could avoid fighting the 'end game' boss altogether by simply talking them out of it. Loved it.

I'll speak for myself.
Going on a killing spree is easy mode for me, there is little to no subtlety required on my part.
Not that I don't enjoy it from time to time, but I like to approach missions more tactically and my main Maverick loadout is completely unarmed. 😊
Indeed, since I mentioned MGS2 (or any of them really) the most difficult challenge is the one where you have to avoid killing anything. Unloading an assault rifle mag on a group of rushing enemies is a lot easier than avoiding them rushing to begin with.
 
Let me try and explain. Deus Ex or Splinter Cell, only have to focus on one thing. Each level, handcrafted, tested, and the various outcomes. They can fine tune things like guard movements and rotations so they can work out where the player can find gaps in security to reach a new part of a level.

Now look at EDO. a whole galaxy of possible "levels". They can't handcraft these missions to be like a single player game sucg as splinter cell. Hence why it has a more generic stealth system, which i don't actually get what your problem is. It works pretty much the same as most stealth systems in most stealth based games or games that feature stealth. I mean you crouch, your steps are quiet. You walk, your steps a re a bit louder. You run, your steps are loud.

This is an utter farce.

EDO's settlements are about as cookie cutter as it gets, often smaller, frequently less interactive, with fewer possibilities than what exist in many other games. Not that this is particularly relevant to my points here. I can fire up the level editors for some games make something that doesn't look like anything that was ever in the original game and drop in generic NPCs that interact with those levels better than NPCs do with EDO settlements.

My big problem with stealth is a fundamental problem with how NPC AI behaves, which is wrong for a dynamic level, for a handcrafted level, for a empty plain in the middle of nowhere. There are plenty of mechanical absurdities beyond that, but the overriding issue is NPCs behaving like they are trying to give me a tour of bad stealth mechanisms, rather than NPCs that feel like they are trying to do justice to their jobs and maybe live to see another day.

I mean, you want to do splits jumps in corridors and watch guards walk underneath you like Sam Fisher? You want to crawl through some air vents? Both even less realistic or plausible than what EDO provides.

Not sure where you think I even came close to implying any of that.

I want NPC AI that doesn't ignore glowing balls of plasma, languid tracers, or inexplicably visible burst of laser fire, that wiz through their FoV; new holes and scorch marks that appear on walls they've walked past a thousand times; missing access panels, random garbage strewn about, random ships parked just outside their property lines; or countless other cues that something is very wrong and that they should probably stop marching around like zombies before they all die.

I want NPC AI that reacts more plausibly to missing comrades. Stumbling across a bullet laden corpse and doing a cursory 90 second search of the immediate 10 meter vicinity before resuming the exact same patrol as before without even adapting it to replace the holes in the perimeter due to some of them being dead is silly no matter which way you cut it. They should conduct a plausible search, be able to infer likely directions of attacks, and move to secure likely targets. And they should remain on high alert.

I want NPC AI that remain in frequent radio contact with eachother, so that they don't need to stumble upon a corpse to still not realize that something is really wrong.

I want NPC AI that know to turn off their damned flashlights when they start to take fire, or suspect they may have a sniper about.

I want NPC AI that can use their own settlement controls.

I want NPC AI that can see as far as I can see, shoot as far as I can shoot, and dodge what I can dodge. Almost every time I fire a rocket, I hit at least one NPC. Almost every time a rocket or plasma shot is fired at my CMDR by an NPC from more than farting distance, he sits down for tea, reads the paper, checks his watch, then gets up and pushes his chair in before side stepping said projectile and firing a return shot.

I want NPCs that know when to cut their losses, power down a settlement, grab what they can carry, and call for an extraction.

And a hundred other things that really should not be difficult to do, because right now, NPCs feel like they were all placed specifically to die at the hands of my CMDR, which apparently they were, but that's no excuse for it to be so obvious, as it really ruins the illusion.

Another issue you have is being a nitpicker of the highest order. Let me just clue you in, that this is not a good trait for someone that likes video games.

I vehemently disagree. I lets me rule out a massive number of crappy games, or to recognize low hanging fruit I could use to improve the ones I can improve.

I mean you are talking about how realistic an engineers plasma rifle would be 2000 years in the future.......let that sink in.

No, I'm complaining that in the setting, both depicted and suggested, that plasma rifle makes no sense contextually. It doesn't fit, and it the resulting gameplay suffers.

Relax. Play the game.

Stop trying to infer things you could not possibly infer and don't tell me what I should or should not like.

Some things aren't going to add up because then the balance would be off somewhere, and somewhere in the galaxy, someone else will be complaining like its the biggest drama in the world.

Verisimilitude is not the enemy of balance--indeed, I'd argue that it almost always reinforces balance--but even if it were, I'd value it a lot more than balance, because I feel it makes for better games, irrespective of the genre, no matter the degree of fantasy involved.
 
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Just over a minute since first proper contact (No medpacks used)
1.5-2 Laser magazines
2-2.5 Kinetic magazines
2 grenades
1 shot from pistol

No other shooter I have played has this level of bullet sponginess and this just isn't conventional for FPS games (I wonder why).

"Have you even played? Bizarre."
None of those statistics objectively mean anything, especially in relation to the video. I've watched Fortnite duels last a lot longer and require more ammo etc.. Is Fortnite bad now? I mean, I get that the answer will be yes purely based on it being Fortnite, but somehow it's one of the most popular FPS type games there is so I guess you could say ymmv..
 
I don't think anyone expects an exact copy of dedicated stealth games but I don't believe the current status quo in the game is the best that is technically possible in 2021 2022.

A few lines of boolean scripting would address a large fraction of my complaints.

After the shields drop - yes, that should matter (and I'm pretty sure it does, actualy).

Unmodded lasers do the same damage, irrespective of hit location.

Its not a particualrly easy combat system early on.

Yes it is. It's just tedious.

Also, why are people obsessed with a "non lethal option"? What does it add, gameplay wise?

The ability to play a character that isn't a murderer without categorically excluding one's self from much of the game's content.

I haven't heard many plausible suggestions for how a reliably non-lethal option could be introduced (if it can immediately incapacitate someone through a pressure suit, it's surely going to cause fatal injury a significant portion of the time), but I absolutely understand the desire, even if I usually play amoral mass murderers who wouldn't want to leave any survivors in any case.

Maybe some suit environmental regulator hack...switch the mix over to 100% nitrogen until consciousness is lost, then quickly restore just enough oxygen to keep them from suffering permanent brain damage, using the suits own life-support feedback to moderate things. That could do it. Still way more work than just killing them, but it would be less lethal than shocking someone unconscious through a spacesuit and hoping their heart doesn't stop or the suit doesn't melt.

If someone breaks into my house and knocks me brutally unconscious, they are still criminals and will still go to jail if caught.

If someone breaks into an EDO settlement uninvited, in order to shutdown and steal a power core, or interfere with and steal a manufacturing process, they may not be murderers but they are still criminals and their notoriety should still go up.

Its another ridiculous argument i keep seeing about "why i hate odyssey", that is not really anything to do with Odyssey but more to do with strange people's wants and expectations from the game mode.

I'd certainly prefer that crimes that weren't able to be reported via rational mechanisms not result in bounties or notoriety, but this issue isn't new to EDO.

That bounties and notoriety don't matter doesn't make things better either, it just makes the whole situation that much more absurd. My CMDR can sneak into a settlement and disable it in a manner that prevents anyone for calling for help and then leave no survivors to report back, yet my CMDR's crimes are still common knowledge.

This means there was an alternate route of communication, which not only resulted in no one bothering to send any help as these heinous crimes played out (sometimes over the course of hours, if my CMDR was systematically looting every spool of cable, stopping to use the bathrooms, and taking the odd nap, before moving on to murder the inhabitants of the next habitation unit over), but which result in only token attempts to punish, deter, or prevent my CMDR from committing such crimes in the future.

Going on a killing spree is easy mode for me, there is little to no subtlety required on my part.

Most of my characters take the path of least resistance, because that's how I think these characters would behave; they are usually the pragmatic sorts...even if the realities of the setting they exist in make them lazy.

Unfortunately, it's immersion defying either way.

but somehow it's one of the most popular FPS type games there is so I guess you could say ymmv..

If that many people like it, how could it possibly be any good?
 
Different games.
If you like that one better, play that one and not the on-foot part of EDO (which is totally optional and kinda unrelated to the other aspects of Elite)
It's just too easy, no matter how much they boost the TTK, so yeah I'm playing other games that actually gives me a challenge.
 
I can fire up the level editors for some games make something that doesn't look like anything that was ever in the original game and drop in generic NPCs that interact with those levels better than NPCs do with EDO settlements.
Which games?
This is an utter farce.

EDO's settlements are about as cookie cutter as it gets, often smaller, frequently less interactive, with fewer possibilities than what exist in many other games. Not that this is particularly relevant to my points here. I can fire up the level editors for some games make something that doesn't look like anything that was ever in the original game and drop in generic NPCs that interact with those levels better than NPCs do with EDO settlements.

My big problem with stealth is a fundamental problem with how NPC AI behaves, which is wrong for a dynamic level, for a handcrafted level, for a empty plain in the middle of nowhere. There are plenty of mechanical absurdities beyond that, but the overriding issue is NPCs behaving like they are trying to give me a tour of bad stealth mechanisms, rather than NPCs that feel like they are trying to do justice to their jobs and maybe live to see another day.



Not sure where you think I even came close to implying any of that.

I want NPC AI that doesn't ignore glowing balls of plasma, languid tracers, or inexplicably visible burst of laser fire, that wiz through their FoV; new holes and scorch marks that appear on walls they've walked past a thousand times; missing access panels, random garbage strewn about, random ships parked just outside their property lines; or countless other cues that something is very wrong and that they should probably stop marching around like zombies before they all die.

I want NPC AI that reacts more plausibly to missing comrades. Stumbling across a bullet laden corpse and doing a cursory 90 second search of the immediate 10 meter vicinity before resuming the exact same patrol as before without even adapting it to replace the holes in the perimeter due to some of them being dead is silly no matter which way you cut it. They should conduct a plausible search, be able to infer likely directions of attacks, and move to secure likely targets. And they should remain on high alert.

I want NPC AI that remain in frequent radio contact with eachother, so that they don't need to stumble upon a corpse to still not realize that something is really wrong.

I want NPC AI that know to turn off their damned flashlights when they start to take fire, or suspect they may have a sniper about.

I want NPC AI that can use their own settlement controls.

I want NPC AI that can see as far as I can see, shoot as far as I can shoot, and dodge what I can dodge. Almost every time I fire a rocket, I hit at least one NPC. Almost every time a rocket or plasma shot is fired at my CMDR by an NPC from more than farting distance, he sits down for tea, reads the paper, checks his watch, then gets up and pushes his chair in before side stepping said projectile and firing a return shot.

I want NPCs that know when to cut their losses, power down a settlement, grab what they can carry, and call for an extraction.

And a hundred other things that really should not be difficult to do, because right now, NPCs feel like they were all placed specifically to die at the hands of my CMDR, which apparently they were, but that's no excuse for it to be so obvious, as it really ruins the illusion.



I vehemently disagree. I lets me rule out a massive number of crappy games, or to recognize low hanging fruit I could use to improve the ones I can improve.



No, I'm complaining that in the setting, both depicted and suggested, that plasma rifle makes no sense contextually. It doesn't fit, and it the resulting gameplay suffers.



Stop trying to infer things you could not possibly infer and don't tell me what I should or should not like.



Verisimilitude is not the enemy of balance--indeed, I'd argue that it almost always reinforces balance--but even if it were, I'd value it a lot more than balance, because I feel it makes for better games, irrespective of the genre, no matter the degree of fantasy involved.
Its not a farce. Lol.

You come across as just way too entitled, and way too in love with yourself on this forum, to accept your opinion may not be the only thing that is a factor.

I mean your comment, later about other games "if that many people like it, how can it possibly be good", just demonstrates your mindset perfectly and its tedious. People with your opinion and views on this are ten a penny on other detached social media chat forums like reddit or that most damned of places, steam discussions.

They talk about what they want, as if its in a vacuum from what the developers can realistically achieve within the framework of the game that already exists and what they have already created. They have to start somewhere.

If you were around for the beta and the original launch of this game, i am sure you will remember that what we have now is nothing like what we had then.

Funny how that works.

Its almost like they are trying to create the building blocks for your characters avatar to take action in a world designed originally for only spaceships. That still includes spaceships in and around those areas and all that entails.

Then there are people like you and others, who expect them to be able to create that, in the first instance, plus detailed mechanics that are usually only found in games that ONLY have to worry about those mechanics and nothing else.

When you cut through all your bloated waffle, your only real argument is "well other games can do it", regardless of any other factors. That is the real farce.
 
Which games?

F.E.A.R. is a pretty good example, but many tactical shooters have dynamic/procedural AI and at this point and don't need to be micromanaged, unless something special needs to be done.

Its not a farce. Lol.

You come across as just way too entitled, and way too in love with yourself on this forum, to accept your opinion may not be the only thing that is a factor.

I mean your comment, later about other games "if that many people like it, how can it possibly be good", just demonstrates your mindset perfectly and its tedious. People with your opinion and views on this are ten a penny on other detached social media chat forums like reddit or that most damned of places, steam discussions.

They talk about what they want, as if its in a vacuum from what the developers can realistically achieve within the framework of the game that already exists and what they have already created. They have to start somewhere.

If you were around for the beta and the original launch of this game, i am sure you will remember that what we have now is nothing like what we had then.

Funny how that works.

Its almost like they are trying to create the building blocks for your characters avatar to take action in a world designed originally for only spaceships. That still includes spaceships in and around those areas and all that entails.

Then there are people like you and others, who expect them to be able to create that, in the first instance, plus detailed mechanics that are usually only found in games that ONLY have to worry about those mechanics and nothing else.

When you cut through all your bloated waffle, your only real argument is "well other games can do it", regardless of any other factors. That is the real farce.

This is a collection of attacks against strawmen that generally don't even try to represent my position.

Nowhere, in any of your assertions, is anything resembling a coherent rationale for why this game's on-foot content falls short of so many other titles, many of which have long had more variety, more dynamism, and better integration of combined arms in larger effective spheres of combat.

Additionally, there are no factors special to EDO or the setting it's ostensibly depicting that limit either the basic mechanism or the AI I've criticized to what we have now. The bulk of the mechanical changes I'd advocate are simple alterations to existing statistics, while the NPC AI could be addressed much the same way, with some changes to basic scripted behaviors.

But you've never tried to address any of my actual points and would rather try to tell me I shouldn't want what I want. Since you seem intent on attaching my name to your projections, it's probably best if I just stick you on ignore.
 
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