Why should there be a delay? Well, for the same reason as we don't have autopilots, wormholes, auto-traders, pay to win, guilds, and auto-combat drones. For the same reason you have to balance ship features, why jacques is on the far side of the galaxy, why the action isn't all around a map with five systems, why it's "one man in a ship"... because it's elite and it's SUPPOSED to be a complex and difficult game. It's not galaxian or pacman or some mobile phone app, it doesn't take ten minutes to "win". Because that's not what Elite is about - it's not SUPPOSED to be "convenient", empty eye-candy, it's SUPPOSED to be challenging dammit!
Should ship transfers have a time delay or not?
- Thread starter WR3ND
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I already offered a better way: remote orders.
A remote order means that you, personally, don't have to do any waiting. Your ship is shipped while you play, for your convenience. Massive improvement over having to fetch it and fly it back, yes?
But it also means no instant teleporting, it means travel still takes time, it's just time that you can also spend productively. If you want to know why it matters, google "redeployside".
A remote order means that you, personally, don't have to do any waiting. Your ship is shipped while you play, for your convenience. Massive improvement over having to fetch it and fly it back, yes?
But it also means no instant teleporting, it means travel still takes time, it's just time that you can also spend productively. If you want to know why it matters, google "redeployside".
Translation : "I want the new mechanic to be even more painful and less pleasant so that people don't even think about using it and are forced to go through the manual hassle of flying their ships because realism, damned to any possible positive use cases, let's just make sure that it's as inefficient and as cost ineffective as possible to REALLY spite the people that might want it."
Do you understand how that sounds when you play that back? Because that -is- what you're essentially saying. A button that pulls ships to you is no good if it takes potentially longer than the sum time to fetch the damn thing yourself using a taxi ship and the ship in question before you GET where you want to go, and Sandro made it painfully clear that such lunatic travel mentality is NOT good gameplay, it's simply jumping back and forth for NO GOOD REASON. And you're trying to make it terrible, purposefully so, because, and I get it, that's what you're used to, and damned if everyone else isn't going to suffer along with you.
QoL stands for Quality of Life, instead of trying to wreck the concept before it gets off the design board, maybe look at better ways to implement it?
Did you read my post? I included a pretty good solution that would make everyone happy.
I don't want not pain. I want the ships to be balanced. If they increase the jump ranges of combat fighters so that instant transfer wasn't an exploit, and people just flew the ships they wanted where they wanted, then I'd be fine with instant transfer.
What I don't like is the notion that we will need an extra shuttle and wad of cash to buy a break in immersion. Cut out the middle man. Increase all jump ranges.
Translation : "I want the new mechanic to be even more painful and less pleasant so that people don't even think about using it and are forced to go through the manual hassle of flying their ships because realism, damned to any possible positive use cases, let's just make sure that it's as inefficient and as cost ineffective as possible to REALLY spite the people that might want it."
Do you understand how that sounds when you play that back? Because that -is- what you're essentially saying. A button that pulls ships to you is no good if it takes potentially longer than the sum time to fetch the damn thing yourself using a taxi ship and the ship in question before you GET where you want to go, and Sandro made it painfully clear that such lunatic travel mentality is NOT good gameplay, it's simply jumping back and forth for NO GOOD REASON. And you're trying to make it terrible, purposefully so, because, and I get it, that's what you're used to, and damned if everyone else isn't going to suffer along with you.
QoL stands for Quality of Life, instead of trying to wreck the concept before it gets off the design board, maybe look at better ways to implement it?
No, it breaks the game in various ways already mentioned.
The QoL improvement should stop at the fact that you don't have to do all the flying to move your ships. Especially when you are thinking of moving multiple ships that could be 'in transit' simultaneously that is a huge QoL improvement. Sandro and team have taken the extra step, broke with game lore, created requirements nobody asked for, and failed to consider how it affects other parts of the game.
I guess they are trying to attract a wider audience...what they fail to realize is that the wider audience of gamers will and do hate this game. Take a gander at the new posters on the forum everyday for proof that this game is niche and should cater to the niche market of players.
The reason for ship transfer is not just to allow people to move their combat ships more efficiently. It's also to allow and encourage having multiple ships instead of just sticking with a single one.
Javert
Volunteer Moderator
This poll was created after a discussion on the other thread (not by moderators) that the poll there was confusing due to the fact that it was effectively two polls in one and a lot of people didn't realize - in fact I didn't realize so I voted wrongly in it. I think the original hope was that everyone would migrate to this thread and the other one would be closed.
I think moderators are quite aware that there are currently two large threads running about this topic, but thanks for bringing it to our attention again.
Also, regardless of whether your complaint is valid or not, it's against forum rules to openly question moderator actions here - sending the PM to Brett is sufficient you do not need to post about it again here.
The delay would give a sense of meaning and purpose of action in the game – or more accurately, not remove them from the game. "How is that?!" you might ask...
I generally pilot a combat capable exploration Vulture, however, I took part in the CG to repair Jaques Station and took a cargo hauling Python loaded with 216t of tantalum out there and made it in time to be able to help. It felt like I was actually doing something and able to contribute to a higher ideal in a "living, breathing galaxy," accomplishing a goal that was actually worth accomplishing. That's fun for me, and a lot of other people I think too. This sort of "immersion" is why many of us got the game in the first place and like it as much as we do, I'm sure.
So now, after the CG, I've been exploring and heading back to human colonized space. I still have somewhere around 19,500 LY to go. After hearing the announcement of magic ship teleportation by Sandy at Gamescom, I haven't logging back in. It hasn't been intentional and I haven't even really thought about it much until today. It just feels kind of meaningless now in a universe where suisidewindering 22,000 LY and teleporting your ship to you half way across the galaxy is actually going to be a thing.
Sorry to all you guys who want this instantaneous teleporting ship "feature," and I know you have your reasons, but to me it seems beyond stupid to implement it in this game as announced by Sandy. It feels like a slap in the face and an indifferent dismissal of the time and effort I've invested in the game, given the reasons why I invested them.
Instantaneous ship transfer cheapens the game.
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Frontier understands that it will be abused, that is actually why they made it instant. So that people who are impatient and lazy won't be sitting staring at the screen getting bored and angry. If it was simply supposed to be an easy way to change your fleet your location without playing taxi 70 times, then a reasonable delay would have been fine.
Anyone who thinks this is good for the game needs to give a clear and specific reason why this specific eventuality adds to the experience.
My guess as well. Which is why they won"t even consider the idea of a cooldown.
They'd just log off and relog on, a delay won't botther them.
Good.
So timer doesn't bother those folks.
And makes the rest of us happy. What is the downside?
Question!
Remember back when people were calling for ship deliveries?
Back then... did anyone actually specify that there should be a time delay? Yes, yes, it might seem obvious and not even something that should be mentioned, but did anyone who was asking for it think to specifiy it?
Remember back when people were calling for ship deliveries?
Back then... did anyone actually specify that there should be a time delay? Yes, yes, it might seem obvious and not even something that should be mentioned, but did anyone who was asking for it think to specifiy it?
Javert
Volunteer Moderator
Not if the time delay is dependent on ship capability.
I think this is the part we are missing that maybe they haven't been 100% up front about. They may have specced out and tested the option of a time delay in a simple fashion, but then when they realized that in order to make sense, the time delay would have to be scaled to fit the ship capabilities of the ship you are trying to bring, AND, it would have to be something approaching the time it would take to do manually - that is the only way to avoid the Aspification and condification of the galaxy for long distance travel.
If you make the time delay less than what it takes to do it manually, even if it's scaled by ship capability, you immediately incentivise only the use of long range ships.
This is why I think they have come to the conclusion that time delay only worth programming if it's going to be at least as long as what it will take you to fly the route manually. Anything shorter than that, and the exploits / unintended side effects will happen anyway.
At that point, if you then take the view that players won't accept a time delay that's equal or higher than the manual time (of course we don't know that's the case I think that is their thinking), you then come to the conclusion that you might as well just make it instant.
Now personally, I would actually rather have it timed and be at least as long as the manual process, but that's just me. I'm setting out what I think is the dev reasoning on this.
So fundamentally I think they are very well aware that everyone will just fly around in Asp / Conda for long trips and they've decided that it's a price worth paying, and furthermore I suspect that there will be additional concessions like this required in 2.3 and beyond that mean that they think this is the only way.
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I think I remember posting about it way back when. I don't remember what exactly I said but I do know that I expected there to be a delay. Whether I put that into words or not would require a Herculean search through my post history.
Back then, it seemed, we had more battles against painful realism. Now we are fighting against off-putting fantasy. Do the folks at Frontier know the word compromise? Is it always just two lines of people throwing crap at each other? Whoever flings the most crap, wins?
You know, it just struck me that this radical departure from the game design up to now doesn't bode well if it's because Frontier is hoping to attract new players. Is the game not doing well as it is? Aside from the RNGineers debacle, of course.
I have limited game time, and yet I don't want instant ship transfer. I get annoyed with sitting staring at my screen as I traverse 400k ls to reach a station that is FAAAAR from the jump in point, but I accepted it as part of the realism. And I liked that different ships and builds had varying jump ranges. This decision undermines all of that. It's not a minor shift in game design.
Is it to facilitate large scale battles between factions? The tourism addition coming? I don't get why they're making this decision.
I have limited game time, and yet I don't want instant ship transfer. I get annoyed with sitting staring at my screen as I traverse 400k ls to reach a station that is FAAAAR from the jump in point, but I accepted it as part of the realism. And I liked that different ships and builds had varying jump ranges. This decision undermines all of that. It's not a minor shift in game design.
Is it to facilitate large scale battles between factions? The tourism addition coming? I don't get why they're making this decision.
I'm pretty sure they did, at least within the further discussion within one of the threads. I have no idea where specifically though.
Yaffle
Volunteer Moderator
Try here - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/6753-Elite-Dangerous-Multiple-Ship-Ownership
Delay has nothing to do with immersion or realism and everything to do with balanced play mechanics. If you add a ship teleport option which allows you to circumvent manual travel, you now have two ways to move your ship from point A–>B, where you used to have only one option. Those options have to be weighted against each other in terms of benefits and drawbacks. If one choice is CLEARLY better than another choice, then there's no point in having both options. Instant teleport is always the better choice, and that's a shame. This is a game about flying spaceships and we're introducing disincentives to actually flying your spaceship. Simultaneously we're throwing the whole ship ecosystem out the window. Relative jump abilities between ships and between modules is now meaningless.
This one change addresses the "mile wide, inch deep" criticism by simultaneously making the gameworld smaller and shallower. That's a shame and it's one of the clearest signs I've seen so far that devs are in pure reaction mode and that there is no clear vision for Elite anymore. If this change goes through as planned, I will expect many more thoughtless decisions to come.
This one change addresses the "mile wide, inch deep" criticism by simultaneously making the gameworld smaller and shallower. That's a shame and it's one of the clearest signs I've seen so far that devs are in pure reaction mode and that there is no clear vision for Elite anymore. If this change goes through as planned, I will expect many more thoughtless decisions to come.
Thanks Yaffle...I knew I'd gotten that thought from somewhere.
So, why did this fall apart...what was so wrong with this that Sandro NEEDED to do something different?
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