Shutdown Field as ultimate self defense system

[Ian Doncaster]

It might not be the forums current "hot-topic", but I've certainly seen posts in the past. They're usually citing things like:
- High waking is OP, no way to counter!
- Make mass-lock affect high wake, targets escape too quickly
- Give me some module that makes high-waking impossible/puts a player in stasis for two minutes
etc.

I think it's certainly fair to say that the current ease of high-waking out of combat (especially compared to its tactical and strategic limitations in previous Elite games) is part of the general combat imbalance problem and affects all cases - after all, it's part of the contribution to PvP ships being basically invincible even versus other PvP ships, if they just choose to flee when outmatched.

But I don't think it's practical to get to a game balance where escaping from combat takes longer without just making things impossible for non-combat ships, without making so many backward-incompatible changes that you might as well not start from Elite Dangerous in the first place. They certainly couldn't make high-waking more difficult without also making a lot of other changes to combat balance.

 

[insanephoton]

I think you're overstating the case. I never ground for anything. Sure it took me two years to become competitive at pvp, but when I wanted to I had already done most of the work just by playin the game.

For the record, the insane defense inflation in comparison to damage was so that explorers and traders didn't need to be victims any more, with the side effect that real pvpers have messed up 20 minute duels with modules failing all over the place. It's more a game of who runs out of ammo first. Never forget this was done for those who can't defend themselves properly. So many duels ending 'I'm out of ammo'...'yeh, me too.' 'Call it a draw?' 'sure'. THAT's why it's rubbish, cos explorers and traders can't learn to use the tools given to them and we pay for that.

As for the people saying engineering is the problem and it should go and then they'd be able to survive, I can't imagine a more incorrect statement in the context.

You can't blame traders and explorers for 20 minute slugfest draws. That's a combination of flawed design and PvPers min-maxing. Honestly things were better before all the crutches of HRP, SCB etc. making them all stackable is the real problem of hit point inflation. As to the reason traders and explorers didn't bother with the tools, most of the time if you aren't in a player hotspot the risk is about the same as getting struck by lightning

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

I think it's certainly fair to say that the current ease of high-waking out of combat (especially compared to its tactical and strategic limitations in previous Elite games) is part of the general combat imbalance problem and affects all cases - after all, it's part of the contribution to PvP ships being basically invincible even versus other PvP ships, if they just choose to flee when outmatched.

But I don't think it's practical to get to a game balance where escaping from combat takes longer without just making things impossible for non-combat ships, without making so many backward-incompatible changes that you might as well not start from Elite Dangerous in the first place. They certainly couldn't make high-waking more difficult without also making a lot of other changes to combat balance.

lol just tell these trader ships at the CG to at least run some chaff. i mean c'mon pulling these guys, it's trivially easy 9/10 times

sometimes I feel there's really only like 200 people who know how to play, and we just sit on forums and yell at each other, making speculation that in practice will be meaningless because only 200 people will use it. and sadly for me 180 of them are on PC

and meanwhile the 20000 who fly their shieldless t-9 into a powerplay aligned CG will just keep doing what they do, because the in game instructions are pre-school level

anyone want to see the typical level of build, skill, and comms decisions made by traders at CG when confronted by the nasty pirate? here ya go fellas

what good is high waking if you fly a shieldless t-9 to a CG and mouth off to a corvette that has already hit you with fsd reset twice?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzhVB3SM_pA

that guy was gonna die no matter what, price of stupidity, but if in noobspace all they have to do is crack a joke or whatever to live when I pull them. they don't need a shutdown field they just need to think some more

[yes I know true gankers just murder but if they can't escape me and my silly comms how are they going to escape a pureblood murderhobo]

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

You can't blame traders and explorers for 20 minute slugfest draws. That's a combination of flawed design and PvPers min-maxing. Honestly things were better before all the crutches of HRP, SCB etc. making them all stackable is the real problem of hit point inflation. As to the reason traders and explorers didn't bother with the tools, most of the time if you aren't in a player hotspot the risk is about the same as getting struck by lightning

But, if you're exploring on a publicly accessible route, which is announced ahead of time, and in Open, you're odds of being attacked increase dramatically, so should prepare.

I always set off for exploration towards Maia (because I like going to the rim), so rather than go around Thargoid space, like any clever person would do, I outfit my ship to survive any encounter with one or more, and go through it.

Of course, FD made them to a bit too optional, so I've never once been bothered by them, unless I provoked them directly. Lol

But I didn't know that at the time.

 

[Sylow]

Let me change the direction a bit then...

World bosses. Wouldn't it be cool if there were occasional named NPCs they could be power play generals or something, and have special weapons, including an EMP (shutdown field if you like), which of you didn't outrange when you saw it warming up would leave you dead in space until you reboot.

Yeh, world bosses.

I have to congratulate you for your perfect sarcasm here. And i am most amused that some people in this thread actually applaud you for this innovative posting.

I mean, let's really look at it: yes, some PvE content like this could be very interesting. Tough enemies, which are harder to fight than your normal NPCs. You might even have to bring special equipment to face them, not your run of the mill weapons. It would make sense that these enemies have an alien movement model, some strange attacks and perhaps even a mechanic where you can't just hit them everywhere but you need to hit them at very specific spots to do any damage. And if you don't deal that damage in time, they might even regenerate it.

To add to it, those enemies also need a name to carry terror. Dalek and Borg are already used, but we could call them Thargoids. Yea... Thargoids sounds great, i think we could go with that name.

The only thing, i fear we have to be careful with this community. We can't just put them everywhere. No matter how bad and threatening they should be, we better make everything opt-in. And better have five lines of warnings around them. If there's only three or four of them, it's just way too likely that people will just ignore all the warning signs, get overwhelmed and then cry loudly. (*cough* Gnosis *cough* )

I mean, the whole thread is about taking some already existing PvE mechanic from very specific "world boss style" enemies and turn it into a massively OP weapon for all players to use, with the declared goal of having it as tool against griefers and gankers, believing that for obscure reasons griefers and gankers wouldn't use it. And then being all so happy when somebody brings up the idea that it could be a PvE thingie. Funniest thread since quiet a while!

 

[Strangepork]

We know how this weapon works from Thargoids.

The idea is to have this module available also for our ships for self-defense only.
This module is a proposal for exploration builds to have an ultimate defense and allow escaping from pirates or gankers.

You can equip this module as a hard point. Only one shot is available. The mass of the module is defined so that it will reduce the jump range by 3-4 LY on a typical exploration outfit configuration.

It is pure energy and it is Thargoids adapted technology, so the module is only recharged in Witch Space and it requires “n” jumps (let’s say 10) to be operative again.

You can fire the shutdown field only when your shields are down (manually off or disrupted by the opponent). Shields are not automatically disabled like in the Silent Running Mode. This is to be sure that you’re using the shutdown field because your ship is exposed or it’s taking damage.
The opponent (pirate or ganker) needs to be selected as target, no aiming is required, the shutdown field is omnidirectional.

It will paralyze the target ship and the ones in wing (if any). It will not paralyze other ships (to avoid exploits).
It will completely paralyze also the player modules and weapons (to avoid combat exploits) except:

• the Generator
• the Thrusters
• the FSD (only Supercruise availabe)

this is to allow escaping.

The Shutdown field lasts for 10 seconds and you can’t log off in this timeframe. After the 10 seconds the pirate/ganker ship is fully operative again, shields included.

Why do explorers seem to want some magic. no risk gameplay, potion?

Stop it, stop asking for this stuff.

 

[Aashenfox]

You can't blame traders and explorers for 20 minute slugfest draws. That's a combination of flawed design and PvPers min-maxing. Honestly things were better before all the crutches of HRP, SCB etc. making them all stackable is the real problem of hit point inflation. As to the reason traders and explorers didn't bother with the tools, most of the time if you aren't in a player hotspot the risk is about the same as getting struck by lightning

You're right it's not their fault. It;s FD's method of implementing additional protection for them. But it does beg the question since it was introduced why aren't htey using it? Especially when going to player hotspots.

 

[Aashenfox]

I have to congratulate you for your perfect sarcasm here. And i am most amused that some people in this thread actually applaud you for this innovative posting.

I mean, let's really look at it: yes, some PvE content like this could be very interesting. Tough enemies, which are harder to fight than your normal NPCs. You might even have to bring special equipment to face them, not your run of the mill weapons. It would make sense that these enemies have an alien movement model, some strange attacks and perhaps even a mechanic where you can't just hit them everywhere but you need to hit them at very specific spots to do any damage. And if you don't deal that damage in time, they might even regenerate it.

To add to it, those enemies also need a name to carry terror. Dalek and Borg are already used, but we could call them Thargoids. Yea... Thargoids sounds great, i think we could go with that name.

The only thing, i fear we have to be careful with this community. We can't just put them everywhere. No matter how bad and threatening they should be, we better make everything opt-in. And better have five lines of warnings around them. If there's only three or four of them, it's just way too likely that people will just ignore all the warning signs, get overwhelmed and then cry loudly. (*cough* Gnosis *cough* )

I mean, the whole thread is about taking some already existing PvE mechanic from very specific "world boss style" enemies and turn it into a massively OP weapon for all players to use, with the declared goal of having it as tool against griefers and gankers, believing that for obscure reasons griefers and gankers wouldn't use it. And then being all so happy when somebody brings up the idea that it could be a PvE thingie. Funniest thread since quiet a while!

Thargoids....hm....Thargoids....oh, YES! I remember those!! Weren't they somewhere around maia 6 months ago? I think I fought one once, but it killed me.

Call me boring, but I'd have preferred if thargoids had come in the form of another human factoin that was an off shoot and had been developing independently of the humans on earth since the time of the dinosaurs or something like that, with totally different technology, etc. Green flowery things that are obviously way more powerful than we are, yet just play pitty pat with us on the fringes of our space...very odd.

Thanks for highlighting the (indeed) amusing analogy of my post to what is already in the game, I honestly hadn't considered it, so can't take credit for an accidental piece of genius sarcasm, the irony is indeed palpable (if only I'd meant it!)

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

why aren't htey using it? Especially when going to player hotspots.

I would guess for the same sorts of reasons they choose to fly shieldless T9's to superpower aligned CGs, or let the nice man in the "ZOZO" squadron with an anaconda having fully deployed hardpoints drift to their blind spot while typing out comms. Or why they play 3 card monte in the park.

As to what those reasons actually are, I am probably too cynical and guarded to truly understand.

 

[Sylow]

Thanks for highlighting the (indeed) amusing analogy of my post to what is already in the game, I honestly hadn't considered it, so can't take credit for an accidental piece of genius sarcasm, the irony is indeed palpable (if only I'd meant it!)

Ooops! Shame on me! I really thought you wrote that as sarcastic contribution and an awesome one, as that.

Call me boring, but I'd have preferred if thargoids had come in the form of another human factoin that was an off shoot and had been developing independently of the humans on earth since the time of the dinosaurs or something like that, with totally different technology, etc. Green flowery things that are obviously way more powerful than we are, yet just play pitty pat with us on the fringes of our space...very odd.

I know what you mean. Thargoids could've been more interesting than single-minded enemies, hell-bent on destroying you. (As soon as you opt in, of course. ) There could've been different Thargoid factions, planetary bases where we could interact with them, trade with them, perhaps acquire some special equipment (see: tech broker) and do very strange missions, which follow no human logic.

Your idea of a different branch of humanity wouldn't have worked on that name, though. There's already too much lore around Thargoids, defining them as insectoid. But the galaxy is large and there are still areas which are locked off. Having some weird off branch of humans there, perhaps based on a lost generation ship, or having some completely different aliens there, which are not already pre-defined from earlier games, definitely is an option and could add flavour to the game. I'd like that.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

For the record, the insane defense inflation in comparison to damage was so that explorers and traders didn't need to be victims any more.

Well for the record, it's been two years now for us to observe that if this is the design decision they took to fix that, it's just not working at all.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Sad to see how people lack of imagination.
There are always good chances to take someone's idea and add a contribution to correct it/improve it, highlighting weak points and propose some stronger alternative instead.
That's what discussions and brainstorming is all about.
My fail here is not the bad suggestion, but believing that people of this community could be proactive.
Instead I see people complaining for ganking, complaining for bugs, rejecting anyone's ideas... it's all a big whining here... grow up gents!

Throwing trash in the garbage is pretty reasonable. Sorry, but your idea just isn’t that good. Nothing personal.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

People here seems to be highly reluctant to the idea of some kind of crowd control effects. Yet they already exist, in the form of special effects or PP weapons.

Ironic also, when you realise mixing deep core mining missiles with some ice can send an EMP shocwave that would both move your ship and interfere with your systems. And this stupidity is already in the space simulashun.

So we already have the technology, it just need to be aimed for several shot at a chunck of yellow ice next to your target.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Have I struck you as the unobservant type? ;-)

I don't overestimate my own skills either.

Besides, I doubt I could grind engineering again :-/ Maybe if one day I have a VR rig.

I bet you could find plenty of people willing to help you get up to speed!

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

You're right it's not their fault. It;s FD's method of implementing additional protection for them. But it does beg the question since it was introduced why aren't htey using it? Especially when going to player hotspots.

I think the reason is again pretty obvious. The game is not "blaze your own trail". It's "grind in each and every possible trail" :

If I want a PVP dropship I'll have to grind missions for the feds, unlock engineer, and grind for creds. For a combat ship. Mining bromelite/painite, exploring for USSs and now mining sites, trading, etc.

If PVPers were hooked enough to accept this design for gameplay, well props for them. It's completely crazy to think others would grind as much instead of just logging off and switch mode.

 

[Alwayslate]

just logging off and switch mode.

Did they?

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

But it does beg the question since it was introduced why aren't htey using it? Especially when going to player hotspots.

Gullibility, naivete and terrible in game instruction IMO. Probably also often a lack of time to invest in learning survival/build tactics along with not realizing how effective even just a little bit of those tactics can be.

 

[Goose4291]

You're right it's not their fault. It;s FD's method of implementing additional protection for them. But it does beg the question since it was introduced why aren't htey using it? Especially when going to player hotspots.

The simple answer is still sadly:

"Mah Credits per hour!"

Or

"Mah Lightyears per tonne!"

 

[CMDR Plexus Ironrot]

We know how this weapon works from Thargoids.

The idea is to have this module available also for our ships for self-defense only.
This module is a proposal for exploration builds to have an ultimate defense and allow escaping from pirates or gankers.

You can equip this module as a hard point. Only one shot is available. The mass of the module is defined so that it will reduce the jump range by 3-4 LY on a typical exploration outfit configuration.

It is pure energy and it is Thargoids adapted technology, so the module is only recharged in Witch Space and it requires “n” jumps (let’s say 10) to be operative again.

You can fire the shutdown field only when your shields are down (manually off or disrupted by the opponent). Shields are not automatically disabled like in the Silent Running Mode. This is to be sure that you’re using the shutdown field because your ship is exposed or it’s taking damage.
The opponent (pirate or ganker) needs to be selected as target, no aiming is required, the shutdown field is omnidirectional.

It will paralyze the target ship and the ones in wing (if any). It will not paralyze other ships (to avoid exploits).
It will completely paralyze also the player modules and weapons (to avoid combat exploits) except:

• the Generator
• the Thrusters
• the FSD (only Supercruise availabe)

this is to allow escaping.

The Shutdown field lasts for 10 seconds and you can’t log off in this timeframe. After the 10 seconds the pirate/ganker ship is fully operative again, shields included.

Nice Idea but MAN this could be exploited to no end...I could be the best pirate ever and never need to fire a shot.

 

[Micha]

... EMP. ...
HUD is also glitchy and distorted, so fixed aiming is sorta difficult.
...

I'm not a PvP'er, neither in ED nor any other game, but even I'm aware that most graphics-card software and gaming monitors come with options to overlay crosshairs on the screen these days. And I'm sure there's far more bespoke overlays available..

So glitching the in-game HUD may affect Cmdrs on consoles and more casual PvPers, but I doubt this would impact fixed aiming of the more dedicated players all that much..

Having said that, it's an interesting (and less exploitable) idea than the OPs and by losing tracking (radar is garbled) means the target has a chance of getting away if they can get out of the field-of-view, especially if they then dump a heatsink before the effect vanishes and have gone "invisible" (FA-off and thrusters not firing to hide contrails) until their FSD spools up.

The downside of course is that unless they are already pointing directly at their high-wake destination (or have memorised the star pattern) trying to align with the jump vector is also a bit more difficult for the escapee...

The other downside is how frustrated would PvE combat pilots get if NPCs also have access to this tech? Just by sheer numbers in CZ's/HazRes's, there'd always be at least one NPC around which would have it so it'd probably be going off quite regularly.