So if i hit a planet on FSD engines. with maths!

Okay, Anikaful. DCello. I want you both to sit, and think for a moment.


You are arguing over the properties of a device that does not exist, and doesn't have a shred of evidence that it ever could exist.


I studied this my whole life and I work on the field -- argue over properties of things that don't exist is precisely how we make them become reality =)


Amuse me, where you see them differ? And frankly, I don't see any connection between Alcubierre and Star Trek warp drive.


Well, I've not seen BBC (youtube says that BBC is not available for this or that reason here). The second paragraph of yours make sense though.


I saw you edited this with the bit about Star Trek. Miguel Alcubierre mentions the TV Series as an inspiration for the theory on his original 1994 paper -- back in 66 when Star Trek debuted, there was no working theory regarding warp drives.


About the BBC thingy, it was something like this:
Alcubierre.png
Image from Wikipedia

Sorry if my explanation of the differences between both drives weren't immediately distinct -- I definitely could refine that skill. =)
 
So how does the Alcubierre drive deal with micrometeorites?

The same way it deals with anything else -- it doesn't =P

It basically folds spacetime not unlike folding a towel -- the two ends meet each other instead of having to go through the whole length of the towel. *Very* simply, not 100% accurately portraying, goes something like this:

Real Space:

A _________________________________ B

Warp Drive:

A B
| |
| |
| |
| |
\_/

See how A and B get much closer linearly than before? That's space, "warping".

More accurately, it actually takes space in front of the ship and throws it behind it. That means that anything physical gets grabbed from the front and throw back too. However, essential particles like energy and radiation that aren't fully bound by space get swiped up by the ship, leading to that theory that maybe it obliterates a planet once it drops out of warp.
 
I studied this my whole life and I work on the field -- argue over properties of things that don't exist is precisely how we make them become reality =)

This is great! I have a question for you.

If FSD *compresses* space around ship "in a bubble", but space inside bubble is "normal space" then how does ship move at >c?
I understand alcubierre drive expands space behind ship, and compresses in front, resulting in sort-of net "traversal" in particular direction, but if the FSD compresses all equally all around, then you go nowhere (except through normal space part, at normal velocity).

Am I missing your point?
 
The same way it deals with anything else -- it doesn't =P

It basically folds spacetime not unlike folding a towel -- the two ends meet each other instead of having to go through the whole length of the towel. *Very* simply, not 100% accurately portraying, goes something like this:

Real Space:

A _________________________________ B

Warp Drive:

A B
| |
| |
| |
| |
\_/

See how A and B get much closer linearly than before? That's space, "warping".

More accurately, it actually takes space in front of the ship and throws it behind it. That means that anything physical gets grabbed from the front and throw back too. However, essential particles like energy and radiation that aren't fully bound by space get swiped up by the ship, leading to that theory that maybe it obliterates a planet once it drops out of warp.

*still sort of awake* - I think I see your point of difference, in a way ... Alcubierre might demolish a planet (and while at it, probably itself), whereas FSD doesn't ... Geeze, I need to drop to bed earlier. Anyhow.. the hypothesis behind Alcubierre is just that, and Star Trek is what it is - but if fed in small bites, so to say, Alcubierre method could be feasible, and sort of plausible. At least of the methods that don't invoke unicorns and elves.
 
Could it be bending a section of space around the ship in a disproportionate way? Almost like an airfoil, only with spacetime instead of air?

*nevermind-- I should read the thread before posting. lol.
 
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This is great! I have a question for you.

If FSD *compresses* space around ship "in a bubble", but space inside bubble is "normal space" then how does ship move at >c?
I understand alcubierre drive expands space behind ship, and compresses in front, resulting in sort-of net "traversal" in particular direction, but if the FSD compresses all equally all around, then you go nowhere (except through normal space part, at normal velocity).

Am I missing your point?

That's an excellent question.
You actually got 99% of the point precisely, the only unexact part is the "compressing" per se.

If the ship stood still, and compressed space around it, it would indeed go nowhere -- it would just compress space around it without visible effect.

However, it does it while moving, which makes all the difference. I... kinda have to go into the basics here to explain why. I'll be short:

The Spacetime Continuum is a fabric. 4 dimensions intertwine and make this fabric awesome. The reason why we can't go faster than lightspeed is because of something called Relativity of Simultaneity, which states that two events separated by space are never truly simultaneous, since the space between them means there is also time between them. If you see missile A go off in Tokyo and fly to Hong Kong and hit point B, you will see A followed by B. If you fly at the speed of light, you will see A and B occuring simultaneously, since you fly back and forth, breaking the previous sense of sequence. If you fly above the speed of light, you may overshoot Tokyo, see Honk Kong's point B explode, and *then* see missile A take off in Tokyo, completely reverting the order and making B occur followed by A. In effect, you saw the explosion (consequence) happen before the missile is even launched (cause). This results in a break of causality, breaking the linear progression of time and space in which the universe (and normal physics) are built upon.

That means that the fabric of the universe prevents you from going over the speed of light, since going over it would violate causality, create a paradox, and rip a whole in the spacetime continuum, possibly collapsing creation in itself. In very layman's terms, the only way to fly above the speed of light is make it in a way that you don't "drag" yourself on the fabric of space and time and rip a hole in it. Basically, what the FSD does is compress space around it making a small bubble, allowing it to "roll" along the fabric of space instead of "dragging", kinda like a little hamster ball. That generates less friction, and the compression of space makes so that (for example) those 10 km of empty space in front of you are, to you inside the ship, pressed together in just 1km.

Regarding the "how you fly at 5c", that is simply the ship's computing your speed. That's an indicator in-game representing your current speed, which is a scalar quantity of distance over time and completely relative in regards to observer and observed. To the universe, the ship is moving at 200 km/h. The bubble -- made of energy and not matter -- is moving at 5c, but since it's just an bubble compressing space and not actually "dragging across it", it doesn't do any damage. The same way that a butterfly inside a bus speeding 80km/h down M21 doesn't have to fly at 80km/h since the air inside the bus pulls it along for the ride, the ship doesn't need to fly at 5c to follow the bubble. (the butterfly thing is actually based of air viscosity instead of energy-based synchronous links, but the end effect is the same)
 
I always thought (since the original BBC model B version of elite) that FSD reduced the mass of your ship to zero allowing it to be pushed into the 'external space' where you can warp.
 
...The reason why we can't go faster than lightspeed is because of something called Relativity of Simultaneity

I saw Richard Feynman out at Eximo yesterday (he drives an Anaconda for those who were wondering/ Wanted and Dangerous too).
I think he called it 'Failure of simultaneity at a distance', but I get what you're saying.


...Basically, what the FSD does is compress space around it making a small bubble, allowing it to "roll" along the fabric of space instead of "dragging", kinda like a little hamster ball. That generates less friction, and the compression of space makes so that (for example) those 10 km of empty space in front of you are, to you inside the ship, pressed together in just 1km.

Nice explanation.
 
I am guessing the FSD is using the PHASED SUBSPACE ACTUATOR to cause a THERMAL SUBSPACE NUTATION via the MICROSCOPIC SPACE-TIME HARMONIC-ASSYMETRICAL NEUTRINO SIGNAL in the TRANS-WARP BARYON MATRIX.

More details here: http://www.ds10.org/Database/babble.html

Hysterical luv it..

You can't go past the speed of light in normal space your mass, the ship, stop this , It grows as you approach, Hence " Alcubierre drives theory ( Negative mass ).
 
I saw Richard Feynman out at Eximo yesterday (he drives an Anaconda for those who were wondering/ Wanted and Dangerous too).
I think he called it 'Failure of simultaneity at a distance', but I get what you're saying.




Nice explanation.

That's an specific event, which happens when causality is broken. The event itself is called a failure of absolute simultaneity, and it's just a fancy term meaning "causality has been violated". It exists inside the Relativity of Simultaneity concept, which encompasses everything relating to time travel and it's different point of views.



And why, thank you =)
 
Well, there must be some normal space/FSD interaction because you can still see stuff outside of your ship. And your ship is affected by gravity in FSD so there is a link between normal and FSD :)

And bout the disintegrating Sidewinder.

Even if it does so. The energy is still there (conservation of energy and all that)

No, there isn't, because if we were traveling through "normal space", we would purchase commodities at one station, FSD to the next, and after we exit supercruise we would find that we haven't aged much, but everyone at our origin station and our destination station are now generations older than when we had left. There are two reference frames to consider: the point of us (the traveler), and the point of everyone else back at the station we have just left (the outside viewers). Let's say there's another station that we need to sell some Superconductors and Algae to, and it's 4 light years away from our current station. If we travel at 1c for 4 years, the trip would take us (the traveler) around two weeks. As the distances aren't too great between the two stations (only 4 light years), everyone at both the destination and origin stations would be 4 years older. What if, in 4 years, the order and demand for Superconductors and Algae had changed, and they no longer needed them? What if the distance were greater, and we arrive hundreds of years later at our destination station, only to find everyone we knew or had contact there were dead?

And that's how you know we're not traveling in "normal space" ;-) Really, the only plausible explanation for us right now would be that we use some type of Alcubierre drive (FD's version of it, anyway).

Also, since we're on the subject, there's a very highly recommended science fiction book out there by Poulo Anderson called "Tau Zero". A quick blurb for it, is basically that in the future, we've sent probes to different star systems and have sent a number of ships out that use faster-than-light technology. The ship in the story experiences problems, though, and end up not being able to decelerate anymore...and the crew have to come to terms with quite a few realities as the situation unfolds. It's really very good, albeit very short (at only 130-ish pages, maybe?). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_Zero
 
I would like to reiterate, one last time. Coming from someone who actually has a degree in physics. From someone with a keen interest in interstellar drives. The Alcubierre Drive is. Made. Up.

It has no basis in reality. It is idle speculation, gilded with mathematical wankery. It assumes the existence of forms of matter we have no reason to believe exist. It is literally equivalent to bigfoot and homeopathy. And the problem of simultaneity is just one of an infinite number of ways a faster-than-light drive would violate causality.

Discuss it all you want, but don't be fooled for even a moment that it is a "theory." Or even remotely respectable as an hypothesis.

If you want to look at the actual future of space propulsion, look up nuclear pulse drives, particularly ICF drives.
 
That's an specific event, which happens when causality is broken. The event itself is called a failure of absolute simultaneity, and it's just a fancy term meaning "causality has been violated". It exists inside the Relativity of Simultaneity concept, which encompasses everything relating to time travel and it's different point of views.

You say tomato, I say potato.

And why, thank you =)

Why you are quite welcome!

Some follow-up questions, if I may...

...those 10 km of empty space in front of you are, to you inside the ship, pressed together in just 1km

Where did the 9km of space go?! Did the hamster eat it? If I place a 10km long ruler in that space, does it still read 10km at it's end? Or does it say (as you imply) 1km?
 
LOL there's really no point arguing about a device that does not exist, and the inventors (FD) does not come forward to say how it works :)

I'm just happy to see/hear possible explanation by other people - what they think the FSD does, and how it would work. For me, as explained in my previous post(s), I think that the drive treats each section of space immediately surrounding the ship as a "frame" and it defines a number or a series of them, then it skips along those frames until the last one, when you arrive at the destination.

In my hypothetical idea, I do not think that the FSD compresses or expands space at all actually. I think it's a new, as yet undiscovered technology, that is at work here that moves you along the "frames".
 
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