Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[LittleAnt]

Jeebus fracking wept. Its just an object placed on another object. There are loads of games out there where you can do this sort of stuff.

It's so easy that Elite Dangerous can't do it after a decade. Come on, you know that what SC is doing is not easy...
An object placed freely in a moving object placed freely in a moving object, all objects moving at the same time (and really big ships will add another layer). Games able to do it can be counted on one hand.

 

[cigwatch]

Nope. For a lot of gamers, "seeing a box on the bed in my ship" is especially the realization of what the game can do technically.
Every game can do a helmet flip animation. Few game let you grab a box, move it inside a moving ship and place it where you want. It's impressive.

When CIG added the caves, I had to climb for the first time. It was the only place where you had to do it. At this moment I thought it was a cool technical feature that can be used to other gameplays. And now, we have derelict missions where you have to find a box and the stair to the whole level where the box is is destroyed. You have to seek a way and you find a hole in some room that let you climb to the next level.
Even if I know I can climb in game, my first though was that the box was bugged and spawned at the wrong place. It takes me several minutes to realise that I was playing a new type of mission where you have to play some platform trick. Same for the mission where the boxes are out of reach. You have to use the gravity beam to get them.

The tech demo is not a tech demo anymore, complex content start to appear in game.

Please tell me you are joking.

 

[LittleAnt]

Please tell me you are joking.

Why ?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

It's so easy that Elite Dangerous can't do it after a decade. Come on, you know that what SC is doing is not easy...
An object placed freely in a moving object placed freely in a moving object, all objects moving at the same time (and really big ships will add another layer). Games able to do it can be counted on one hand.

There is a world of difference between can't and haven't.

I know some of what CIG are doing isn't easy. I also know some of what CIG is doing, yet is held up as the second coming of Chris, is relatively easy, and in some cases comes built into the game engine. You may remember the big fuss CIG made over inverse kimetics, something that is supported out of the box with CryEngine, yet it was held up as something revolutionary.

Again, this is why skeptics think backers haven't played any other games.

As for moving objects, erm, wasn't this all solved years ago by local physics grids? At the end of the day its just snapping to a reference point. For sure CIG has to be using tricks like that so they don't have to continuously update the position of objects on moving things. That would kill even the best processors.

Why is it in SC land where people go all jelly over this stuff, whereas in Ark, you can do the same, and nobody makes a fuss about it? Hell, in Ark I can build a base on the back of a flying lizard, do cooking, crafting, drop objects, pick up objects, all while the lizard is flying. And yet people just go "ok, cool" and don't get all excited about it.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Nope. For a lot of gamers, "seeing a box on the bed in my ship" is especially the realization of what the game can do technically.
Every game can do a helmet flip animation. Few game let you grab a box, move it inside a moving ship and place it where you want. It's impressive.

When CIG added the caves, I had to climb for the first time. It was the only place where you had to do it. At this moment I thought it was a cool technical feature that can be used to other gameplays. And now, we have derelict missions where you have to find a box and the stair to the whole level where the box is is destroyed. You have to seek a way and you find a hole in some room that let you climb to the next level.
Even if I know I can climb in game, my first though was that the box was bugged and spawned at the wrong place. It takes me several minutes to realise that I was playing a new type of mission where you have to play some platform trick. Same for the mission where the boxes are out of reach. You have to use the gravity beam to get them.

The tech demo is not a tech demo anymore, complex content start to appear in game.

I don't know. I didn't flip out when I built a cart in Valheim. It's handy yes. It can move, yes. I can put it on a ship, yes. I can even put crates on a ship. I can even play footie with them.

 

[cigwatch]

Why ?

You are describing basic 3D platforming and moving objects around like it is the second coming of the Emergent Gameplay Jesus. Have you never seen these things in a game? Have you never played or watched anything that actually lets you construct working space ships or other machines? Have you never climbed a tower in a Ubisoft game? Have you never had to climb down into a deep dungeon to reach a loot crate?

 

[LittleAnt]

And yet people just go "ok, cool" and don't get all excited about it.

No, a lot of people are excited about it.

 

[Skizomeuh]

There's so many mundane things found in millions of inferior games "so easy" that SC can't do after a decade.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

No, a lot of people are excited about it.

Really? I don't recall anyone getting excited over it when Ark was released. Well, except for certain streamers/youtubers, but i've recently made my opinion of such people clear.

 

[LittleAnt]

You are describing basic 3D platforming and moving objects around like it is the second coming of the Emergent Gameplay Jesus. Have you never seen these things in a game? Have you never played or watched anything that actually lets you construct working space ships or other machines? Have you never climbed a tower in a Ubisoft game? Have you never had to climb down into a deep dungeon to reach a loot crate?

I don't say those mechanisms don't exist in other games. I say you can't find them in such quantities. They are mechanisms for varied content. The more mechanisms you have, the more varied content you can have once the creative guys use them to create missions.

But the real deal here is that SC is aiming to be a MMO. Climbing, proning, sitting, handle a box, place a box, levitate a box, ride a vehicule, park a vehicule inside another one, jumping in a vehicule from a clif directly into the hangar of another vehicule against the wind with one missing wing and a friend eating a burito in the trunk, etc exist in a lot of solo game. When you start to look at MMO, the range of action in one game shrink drasticaly.

 

[LittleAnt]

There is a world of difference between can't and haven't.

You said it's easy to put a box in a moving object. DB since the kickstarter said he wanted ship interior. The commanders want it also. A moving pilot inside a moving ship should be easy, you have soooo many game doing it. So why after a decade you still can't do it ?
Because it's not easy in a MMO.

 

[cigwatch]

I don't say those mechanisms don't exist in other games. I say you can't find them in such quantities. They are mechanisms for varied content. The more mechanisms you have, the more varied content you can have once the creative guys use them to create missions.

You would be blown away by Dwarf Fortress. A single person has created gameplay and systemic variety that is unparalleled to this day.

But the real deal here is that SC is aiming to be a MMO. Climbing, proning, sitting, handle a box, place a box, levitate a box, ride a vehicule, park a vehicule inside another one, jumping in a vehicule from a clif directly into the hangar of another vehicule against the wind with one missing wing and a friend eating a burito in the trunk, etc exist in a lot of solo game. When you start to look at MMO, the range of action in one game shrink drasticaly.

Fortunately SC is not an MMO. If you look at the population of available arena games, there are things SC does that other games do not and vice versa. I still do not understand what the fuzz is about. I lost interest exactly because of that - things that amount to gimmicks developed for hundreds of millions of dollars, sold as revolutionary.

Example: at the moment Minecraft is still miles ahead in the emergent gameplay department, and it is an arena game as well. It is designed around a set of simple mechanics interacting with several game systems. The result? You can build a castle, dungeon crawl, build a working CPU (yes, really) and create an animated TV show.

And let me not even start about Dreams.

But I do understand the financial success of CIG more and more.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

You said it's easy to put a box in a moving object. DB since the kickstarter said he wanted ship interior. The commanders want it also. A moving pilot inside a moving ship should be easy, you have soooo many game doing it. So why after a decade you still can't do it ?
Because it's not easy in a MMO.

And yet, to date, they have chosen not to do it.

That is not the same as can't.

If they had chosen to do it, and couldn't, then we'd be able to compare.

So why after a decade you still can't do it ?

I'm not David Braben, Chris Roberts, or Derek Smart nor do i work for any of their companies.

How about this question. Why can't CIG have more than 50 people on a server when many other games can? Is it because they can't do it? We know they are trying to do it. Does this mean CIG are bad?!!!

 

[LittleAnt]

You would be blown away by Dwarf Fortress... ...Minecraft...

I play them. I've never said that you can't find good game elsewhere. Have you played Bioshock ? All those games are not MMO.

Fortunately SC is not an MMO.

It aim to, so every mechanism you find in the alpha now is aimed to work on MMO.

I still do not understand what the fuzz is about.

The fuzz is about playing a god damn good space MMO full of variety and complex mechanisms in beautiful sceneries.

 

[VR Golgot]

It's getting beyond parody now Ant...

Climbing, proning, sitting, handle a box, place a box, levitate a box, ride a vehicule, park a vehicule inside another one

2021 ladies and gentlemen.

Yes MMOs have thinner game mechanics as a rule, and any spread of complementary game mechanics you can support in an MMO can add up to a 'richer than average' MMO etc.

But the fact that you've had to included 'sitting' in your list there shows just how far you're reaching to make your point. And just how threadbare CIG's actual game mechanics still are at this point.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Really? I don't recall anyone getting excited over it when Ark was released. Well, except for certain streamers/youtubers, but i've recently made my opinion of such people clear.

Some are just more easily impressed.

 

[cigwatch]

The fuzz is about playing a god damn good space MMO full of variety and complex mechanisms in beautiful sceneries.

That would be really cool, but this is a thread about Star Citizen.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

That would be really cool, but this is a thread about Star Citizen.

People say ED isn't an MMO because while you can have thousands, tens of thousands in the same game world, you're generally limited to less than 20-30 in an instance (and it doesn't generally handle that many well) although it has been shown that over 100 is possible.

If ED is not an MMO then SC definitely isn't one, since you can only have 50 people in the whole game world, regardless of location.

I do wonder what is the actual "requirement" in terms of number of players for a game to be considered an MMO. I know some NWN2 persistent worlds could get up to 100 players at once on a server. Fortnite has 100 players at once. Is that an MMO?

At what point can we all agree a game is an MMO, and is instancing allowed or not? If there are 5000 people playing, but have to be instanced if they are all in the same location, is it still an MMO, or the game has to be able to handle all 5000 being in the same location? If not, then how many should it be able to handle in the same location?

As for SC "aiming" to be an MMO, SC aims to be lots of things. Doesn't mean it is right now, or ever will be. Talk is cheap, making things happen is harder.

EDIT: To bring up Ark again, a default dedicated server is 70 people, although that can be increased. Is Ark an MMO? At what point is "massive" considered massive?

 

[LittleAnt]

But the fact that you've had to included 'sitting' in your list there shows just how far you're reaching to make your point. And just how threadbare CIG's actual game mechanics still are at this point.

Lol. It's not an exhaustive list. The fact that you have to highlight a mechanism that you think is simple to implement in MMO (when it's complex in fact) says a lot. So change my "sitting" by "different gravities" or "zero g" or "different temperatures with effect" or "full interactable ingame screen" or "different atmosphere with effect" if you prefer. You want more ? I just scratched the surface...

 

[Sunyavadin]

Really? I don't recall anyone getting excited over it when Ark was released.

I have to admit, I was impressed at how poorly optimised a game could be when Ark first released.

Then Odyssey exceeded even that.