Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

Just watching a SaltEMike video where he just said he won't back Ashes of Creation because of SC. (as in he's seen what has happened with SC so now averse to other kickstarters).

Not to digress too much, but i've heard some suspicious things about AoC as well... but hey, we will see with that one.
 
Again, even if those things are affecting my performance (eg, running around, performing actions), why would it affect the framerate showing a more or less static image on my screen?
There are multiple factors at play here. First the game engine is indeed messy, with all these external events eating time from the main loop (that's the main game thread that "does everything"). Most if not all of the code of CE is synchronous, which was not really an issue for the LAN-party context it was made for, but of course becomes quickly overwhelmed by an online context with many actors. Physics engine being a prime offender here.
Also, CE was never known to be friendly with lesser machines. It's become a meme for that reason... Remember all the "will it run Crysis" jokes ? Here you are.
Finally the current build is not using asset packing + compression as it seems, eating unholy amounts of RAM very quickly. 32GB is currently the minimum comfortable range, 16GB will see intermittent stutters. I'm surprised the game launches at all with 8GB...
I still will not give CiG a pass here as they had 8 years to meditate on their inadequate engine choice for a space MMO. The conversion to Vulkan, at this rate, is going to take more than 30 years, as we're still in the "early days", and will certainly not address the core issues of the main game loop. They never assessed performance in any way, and instead rushed towards 3D asset production, instead of starting with grey boxes and heavy network code testing (and asynchronous game loop development..).
 
Just watching a SaltEMike video where he just said he won't back Ashes of Creation because of SC. (as in he's seen what has happened with SC so now averse to other kickstarters).

Not to digress too much, but i've heard some suspicious things about AoC as well... but hey, we will see with that one.
the Anthem of Creation didn't take off either.
 
Also, explosions, audio, fine, that shouldn't kill FPS...
Atm yes it does. If you hear explosion, you have players in your radius. Players = assets to load = SC struggle to add the assets to your low memory = low fps.
And for now with DX11, each asset has to be loaded by CPU to the graphic card. So loading assets impact also the CPU.
 
Atm yes it does. If you hear explosion, you have players in your radius. Players = assets to load = SC struggle to add the assets to your low memory = low fps.
And for now with DX11, each asset has to be loaded by CPU to the graphic card. So loading assets impact also the CPU.
Why would they need to load a player just so you hear an explosion?
 
Atm yes it does. If you hear explosion, you have players in your radius. Players = assets to load = SC struggle to add the assets to your low memory = low fps.
And for now with DX11, each asset has to be loaded by CPU to the graphic card. So loading assets impact also the CPU.

But i never heard any explosions. I saw nor heard other players. When i did run into another player, i saw no dip in FPS.

Again, staring a plain wall. Nobody else nearby.

Come on, you accept the engine needs performance improvement right in multiple areas right? You accept that other games run just fine without Vulkan/DX12 right?

Surely you can accept that without those other improvements, i'm still not going to get great FPS staring at a wall, Vulkan or not right?

I looked at those walls on separate occasions after loading, possibly on a different server each time. Most of the time i saw nobody. Most of the time there was no chat going on, indicating not many other players around. Even if they were around, a max of 50 people, how many likely to be anywhere close to me? Its not like we would have all chosen the same spawn point and loaded in at the same time. Maybe there were one or two other people within a km or two of my location.

If that is causing such a drastic hit in performance, then the problems with the engine are probably insurmountable, and Vulkan is not going to change that.
 
Most if not all of the code of CE is synchronous...
(and asynchronous game loop development..).
They are working on it for Vulkan. They work also on the direct access to GPU.

I'm surprised the game launches at all with 8GB...
SC compensate with virtual memory. On a 8GB system, the main part of the memory used by SC is in the pagefile. That's why it's unplayable on HDD for low memory system.

The conversion to Vulkan, at this rate, is going to take more than 30 years,
They are pretty confident for a release in the next months. They are on it since a long time
 
But i never heard any explosions. I saw nor heard other players. When i did run into another player, i saw no dip in FPS.

...
That's because they were preloaded to your system. We can't have players round the corner and then start to load them in a FPS. You'd assume there is no work to be done while you're in a cubicle, makes sense. But I'd expect a shooter not to lag spike when suddenly a player appears in sight.
And when there's no players - who knows what useless stuff is still rendered. OCS surely fixed it? It's probably loading OCS so your system can cull the useless stuff. It's not like that's never done before in 3D gaming.
 
I looked at those walls on separate occasions after loading, possibly on a different server each time. Most of the time i saw nobody.
The radius of loading assets is HUGE in SC (at least 10km). The spaceport is the worst place to be for your system. EVERYTHING in at least 10km around you is loaded in your memory.
This radius is huge because everywhere in SC you are near a line of sight direct to the space and zones where you can see ships of players/NPC.
 
SC compensate with virtual memory. On a 8GB system, the main part of the memory used by SC is in the pagefile. That's why it's unplayable on HDD for low memory system.

Surely you mean SSD, not HDD. Unplayable on SSD for low memory systems. As i understand its pretty unplayable on HDD for even high memory systems.

They are pretty confident for a release in the next months. They are on it since a long time

Answer the Call 2015. They seemed pretty confident about that as well.
 
Because when you open the door of your room and look at the window in the corridor, the game has to show you the battle. The assets must be loaded before.

In my case, definitely no battles as when i opened the door the balcony there was nothing going on out there.

In my case, even if there was loading, the FPS didn't improve over time. It was stably low.

I also saw practically no activity on my hard drive. My hard drive stats were showing low throughput. So, nothing required from the CPU or memory required in terms of loading.

But ok, who knows, maybe Vulkan will provide significant gains like you suggest. If its coming soon, like you seem to believe, i guess we will see. Just a shame the forum doesn't have a remindme feature like reddit. Would be so useful for these many SC predictions we get to hear.

On the other hand, it can be fun going to previous threads, digging back a year, and looking at all the predictions made by the faithful that never happen.
 
The radius of loading assets is HUGE in SC (at least 10km). The spaceport is the worst place to be for your system. EVERYTHING in at least 10km around you is loaded in your memory.
This radius is huge because everywhere in SC you are near a line of sight direct to the space and zones where you can see ships of players/NPC.

Then doesn't that need optimizing? Culling? Sure, i can understand things need to be loaded for things you might see later, but not everything. It would be like eschewing LoD for max fidelity to render full sized textures on things km away. Or like sending full info about what armour a player is wearing to another player who is km away. Just madness.

But as i said, my drives were quiet, my swapfile (on my SSD) was also quiet. So that rules out loading assets as a reason for my poor FPS. And again, if there were there, then once loaded, it shouldn't have to keep reloading, just dealing with updates.
 
I was playing for a long time with 7 GB free memory + SSD.

And good performance?

Cool! That means my system isn't so far behind. Another couple of gigs of memory and i should get as good as you got!!!!

EDIT: Of course, i won't do that, because a) I don't need it for any other game and b) birthday in a few months and then christmas, so hoping can put together enough money for an upgrade of most of my components then.

Still, might be good to test the free fly next year. Maybe CIG will have added Vulkan by then.... or not. If the performance is still bad, i wonder what argument will be put forth by the faithful then....

Still, probably several more rounds of upgrades will happen before SC is released anyway :D
 
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Note that CE (and by extension Star Citizen) is very CPU intensive, for some reason. A weaker CPU (low L2 / L3 cache, lower IPC and lower frequency..) will really impact performance. I'm not speculating anything about Vulkan port at this point, as a complete rewrite of the game engine (and main game loop) seems really out of the question, but after all they got $300 million...

They are working on it for Vulkan. They work also on the direct access to GPU.
No - i am talking about the main game engine code here and not about the render engine. The game loop is synchronous (and it is in Unity as far as i know too, same problem, same consequences) which gives a lot of troubles when something hogs the cycle time. If you never dabbled in real time programming (and RT/OS, embedded devices..), i suggest you start looking at that first...
 
Yes they did. You can even find posts mentionning it here.
EDIT : my fault, I talked about OCS, not SOCS

yes they did. I was going from unplayable to barely playable FPS. But the question is: why before we got so low FPS?
The answer is that before the OCS game loaded and take into account all the assets that there was in the world and they took 7 years to introduce a tool to avoid this! Other openworld games make this without telling everybody how good is their teck, because it is a common tool that CIG needed 7 years to implement.
What an acheivement!
 
I still will not give CiG a pass here as they had 8 years to meditate on their inadequate engine choice for a space MMO. The conversion to Vulkan, at this rate, is going to take more than 30 years, as we're still in the "early days", and will certainly not address the core issues of the main game loop. They never assessed performance in any way, and instead rushed towards 3D asset production, instead of starting with grey boxes and heavy network code testing (and asynchronous game loop development..).
It goes back to one of the core issues exposed in the Jennisson letter: that no-one ever thought about the asset budget under some bonehaded assumption that "the engine will sort it out". No-one bothered to figure out how much they had to, or should, load the game down with to maintain good performance, so everyone just piled on more and more junk unti it broke and they had to figure out a way to remove some of that pile on the fly (rather than not just pile everything on to begin with).

Atm yes it does. If you hear explosion, you have players in your radius. Players = assets to load = SC struggle to add the assets to your low memory = low fps.
And for now with DX11, each asset has to be loaded by CPU to the graphic card. So loading assets impact also the CPU.
And with the door closed, none of that should matter to the FPS because they should not be processed unless the engine is a huge mess that fails to cull irrelevant assets from the rendering process. You're confusing two very different things: having assets loaded into memory, ready to be used, and processing and rendering those assets. Loading new assets can happen when a new actor enters the area, but can also be deferred to the very last moment when that asset is actually needed for the rendering. But then we have zoning and pre-loading -- standard techniques that CIG has tried to suggest are very new and advanced under the monicker OCS -- which lets all of that be sorted out as needed slightly before any rendering becomes a necessity.

So no, just because you hear an explosion does not mean that there are any assets (aside from the explosion sound) that needs to be loaded. Just because there are player around does not mean that it is time to start loadng assets; nor do assets have to wait for players to be around to be loaded. Your entire premise relies on assumptions about how a game should handle art that hasn't been true since the early 1990s(!).
 
... If you never dabbled in real time programming (and RT/OS, embedded devices..), i suggest you start looking at that first...

I don't think many of us have. I have an idea about a traffic jam when trying to send something at the same time. My real time programming knowledge doesn't go far beyond Zachtronics.
 
Golden comment on Spectrum discussing the Angry Joe video.

AJ uninformed? AJ who was a founder and has met with the devs and interviewed them personally? LOL

Some backers will just play the "you don't understand game development" and similar cards without any consideration of how dumb they look.

Oh, and i don't think the video has been linked...

17 minute mark if timestamp doesn't work


-They said that we should be talking about the game's release at this point rather than "roadmaps for roadmaps"
-They said that there are parts of the game available but it doesn't work well and is really being used to leverage ship sales
-They said that it's classic sunk cost fallacy, people have been investing as much as actual yachts and defend whatever CIG put out no matter what state it's in
- They don't feel that a decent multiplayer game will be "released" and that the best chance of CIG releasing a finished product is Sq42

So those are the "uninformed" arguments according to people that think the bartender AI is doing something magical of some unknown substance that they can't see (and CIG can't document) is well worth three years of development time, yet say they are "informed"
 
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