Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

@Golgot Why are you not quoting the message just below the one you quote ?
Always seeking the bad info, never forward good ones...


Because I was referring to the bit at the bottom. CIG like UK tax breaks. Why not Canadian tax breaks too? :)

Which is not necessarily a negative. Just another interesting strand ;)

(PS the prior bit about Ubisoft track records actually included positives and negatives. Shame on you for only seeing the negative ;))
 
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When you are in active development, you create tools, assets, gameplay, engine, etc you should not deliver x system. That's how prototyping works. You build your prototype and when it's ready, your start mass production.
The CIG prototype is not ready yet, it will be a mistake to deliver x systems now.
early days.
After all it's not as if they started 8 years ago.
 
When you are in active development, you create tools, assets, gameplay, engine, etc you should not deliver x system. That's how prototyping works. You build your prototype and when it's ready, your start mass production.
The CIG prototype is not ready yet, it will be a mistake to deliver x systems now.

They are going to be drowning in tools any day now.

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They are not "unable" to do it, it's to speed up the creation of systems when their tool will be mature enough.
I have been convinced for a very long time that CIG devotes a lot of time to the creation of tools to industrialize and partly outsource the creation of systems.
From time to time, the question "How many systems/year CIG will be able to produce in the future" appear here. Some key elements to respond are : capacity to industrialize and how many man/hour per year (internally and externally) they will put on system creation.
CIG have failed to outsource at their beginning when they were using common tools. After that they certainly had decided to make their own tools to have a total control of what their future partners will be able to do. As said before, each time I see their tools in video I'm impressed.
For me, CIG will certainly keep the creation of some systems for them and outsource others. It will grandly accelerate the pace of system delivery.

Ummmm... question. What is the difference between CIG using those tools themselves, internally, using either existing staff or hiring addition OR outsourcing to another company?

The tools (or as we like to joke, the pipelines) assuming they are done, can be used more or less eqally well by internal staff as external staff (once people are brought up to speed on using them).

If they have the tools, then usually, it would be more efficient to use them internally to develop what needs developing. Shorter communication chains. Assurance people are on board with proceedures. Less costs (usually, unless outsourcing somewhere cheaper).

In house usually makes more sense, as long as you have the people.

Although, CIG are lacking about 100+ people at the moment. Maybe they can't hire enough people. That might be a reason to outsource.
 
When you are in active development, you create tools, assets, gameplay, engine, etc you should not deliver x system. That's how prototyping works. You build your prototype and when it's ready, your start mass production.
The CIG prototype is not ready yet, it will be a mistake to deliver x systems now.
Ok, apologies. 8 Years and they still havent got their prototype tooling sorted yet. I am not convinced that sounds much better. But at least they have some help now.
 
It's really hard to make good games without good tools. If you don't find the tools for what you want to do, making them is the only way to achieve what you want to do.

It sounds like you are reciting scripture rather than speaking from actual knowledge.

Yes, tools are used to make life easier. It is known. When making any sort of complex system, often one of the first things you will do when you know what you need to do is create libraries, tools, scripts, etc, to make your life easier. CIG on the other hand talk about tools like they are some sort of wonder features that will make everything suddenly speed up.

They have been talking about tools/pipelines for 8 years now. Just like backers have been parroting.

At what point will these magical tools be ready? We heard the exact same litany 6 years ago.

"When the pipelines and tools are ready, development will really speed up!"

Yeah, still waiting on this magical moment.
 
When you are in active development, you create tools, assets, gameplay, engine, etc you should not deliver x system. That's how prototyping works. You build your prototype and when it's ready, your start mass production.
The CIG prototype is not ready yet, it will be a mistake to deliver x systems now.
Tru dat, else you end constantly reworking your work... Oh wait!
Also, you may want to build the workbench and precisely plan what you want to achieve prior to build your tools, else you end up trying to carve a piece of wood with a hammer at the wrong scale... Oh wait!
 
At what point will these magical tools be ready? We heard the exact same litany 6 years ago.

"When the pipelines and tools are ready, development will really speed up!"

Yeah, still waiting on this magical moment.
It's an error of some backers saying to wait the 'next tech' to see the start of the 'real' SC.
It's not how it works. SC need ALL tools/pipeline/tech to be done before seeing if CIG is able or not to do what they want to do.
The 'magical' moment (like you call it) can't exist without at least a working prototype with all intended gameplay/tools/pipeline.
Sidenote, there will be no 'magical' moment. Someday, all main techs will be in place and they will start to create a lot more content than now, nothing more.
CIG still lacking big tech, the alpha now is just an incomplete alpha.
 
They are not "unable" to do it, it's to speed up the creation of systems when their tool will be mature enough.
…except that unless the tools are already mature enough, nothing of the kind will happen. And there's absolutely nothing to suggest that the tools are mature. Or even exist. If they did and were, CI¬G would have put on a PR spectacle the likes of which this planet had never seen. So the only alternative is that the external partner simply has a capability that CI¬G themselves lack.

A third-party consultant does not create a new studio out of nowhere on a flimsy promise of being able to do things later. They do it on a contract now of being able to do things now. If CI¬G had this ability themselves, they would be doing it. They aren't. They can't. So they turn to their long-term trusted partners who have repeatedly proven themself able to do the things CI¬G are unable to do. That is literally the only way for this to speed things up: by letting an infinitely more capable set of designers and programmers take over the development of something CI¬G has failed to make any progress on for a decade. It is the only way for it to make sense that CI¬G hasn't already sped up internally using some fancy new tools at their disposal. It is the only reason why they'd need Turbulent's help in this case, as with pretty much every other case we've come across.

“Unable” is CI¬G's company motto, whether they like it or not.

CIG have failed to outsource at their beginning when they were using common tools.
No, they didn't They outsourced just about everything at the beginning. The problem was that they had zero competence in spec writing and no idea what they wanted. It wasn't a failure of outsourcing, and it had nothing to do with tools — it was simply management being a bunch of toddlers.

It's not how it works. SC need ALL tools/pipeline/tech to be done before seeing if CIG is able or not to do what they want to do.
No they don't. That's not how software development actually works. There's this thing called “abstraction” that has been around since, oh, the 50s or so (and I'll leave it to you to guess which century). It's an essential tool to avoid exactly the kind of unsolvable mutual interdependence you're describing, and which allows for complex prototyping (another essential tool) to go ahead without just being stuck in the same spot forever.

But perhaps more importantly, if CI¬G has not been able to figure out by now what they're able to do and not, this entire project is entirely a lie. They've collected closer to half a billion dollars on a lie. There's a word often used to describe that kind of thing — it's nice to see that you're ever inching closer to accepting this description…
 
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The 'magical' moment (like you call it) can't exist without at least a working prototype with all intended gameplay/tools/pipeline.

And Genuine Roberts has waved hands and waffled for nearly a decade - and completely failed to deliver even the most cursory foundation of what he has promised.

All that has been "delivered" thus far is a disparate and incoherent mess designed solely around flogging jpegs.
 
They are not "unable" to do it, it's to speed up the creation of systems when their tool will be mature enough.
I have been convinced for a very long time that CIG devotes a lot of time to the creation of tools to industrialize and partly outsource the creation of systems.
From time to time, the question "How many systems/year CIG will be able to produce in the future" appear here. Some key elements to respond are : capacity to industrialize and how many man/hour per year (internally and externally) they will put on system creation.
CIG have failed to outsource at their beginning when they were using common tools. After that they certainly had decided to make their own tools to have a total control of what their future partners will be able to do. As said before, each time I see their tools in video I'm impressed.
For me, CIG will certainly keep the creation of some systems for them and outsource others. It will grandly accelerate the pace of system delivery.
Mature eh? So they built a seasoning shed to cure the game or what? The only maturities you'll ever see from this broken mess is liabilities coming due. And I'd say delivery is already overdue. They've been allegedly building "tools" and "pipelines" over the last decade.
Face it already, they can't deliver. Not tools, not pipelines and certainly no game. They already fail composing a roadmap. How long is that up now? Half a year? The only chance you'll see anything like a new star system is giving it to someone competent. And if experience does count they fail at prescribing what they actually need done too so they'll just scrap it for cash well spent.
 
It's really hard to make good games without good tools. If you don't find the tools for what you want to do, making them is the only way to achieve what you want to do.
It's indescent to promise a product, collect the cash and not even have decent tools to start the job. "cloud imperium" like the beggar who takes off with your money to buy cheap booze.
I mean "cloud imperium" says it right directly that it's just all vapourware.
 
…except that unless the tools are already mature enough, nothing of the kind will happen. And there's absolutely nothing to suggest that the tools are mature. Or even exist. If they did and were, CI¬G would have put on a PR spectacle the likes of which this planet had never seen. So the only alternative is that the external partner simply has a capability that CI¬G themselves lack.

A third-party consultant does not create a new studio out of nowhere on a flimsy promise of being able to do things later. They do it on a contract now of being able to do things now. If CI¬G had this ability themselves, they would be doing it. They aren't. They can't. So they turn to their long-term trusted partners who have repeatedly proven themself able to do the things CI¬G are unable to do. That is literally the only way for this to speed things up: by letting an infinitely more capable set of designers and programmers take over the development of something CI¬G has failed to make any progress on for a decade. It is the only way for it to make sense that CI¬G hasn't already sped up internally using some fancy new tools at their disposal. It is the only reason why they'd need Turbulent's help in this case, as with pretty much every other case we've come across.

“Unable” is CI¬G's company motto, whether they like it or not.


No, they didn't They outsourced just about everything at the beginning. The problem was that they had zero competence in spec writing and no idea what they wanted. It wasn't a failure of outsourcing, and it had nothing to do with tools — it was simply management being a bunch of toddlers.


No they don't. That's not how software development actually works. There's this thing called “abstraction” that has been around since, oh, the 50s or so (and I'll leave it to you to guess which century). It's an essential tool to avoid exactly the kind of unsolvable mutual interdependence you're describing, and which allows for complex prototyping (another essential tool) to go ahead without just being stuck in the same spot forever.

But perhaps more importantly, if CI¬G has not been able to figure out by now what they're able to do and not, this entire project is entirely a lie. They've collected closer to half a billion dollars on a lie. There's a word often used to describe that kind of thing — it's nice to see that you're ever inching closer to accepting this description…

I couldn't put it better. It's amazing how you need to rub common sense into people's faces and they still wont see it.
 
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