Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

VR Golgot

VR Golgot
Agony_Aunt said:
Its possible. Like i mentioned a few pages back, Disney have argued you can transfer rights without transferring obligations. Would be a way for Turbulent to pick it up (with CR, a shareholder in Turbulent, to continue leading it) without being obliged to deliver on those pestky things like kickstarter and CIG stretch goals.

Like its interesting how Turbulent wrote 90 systems instead of 110.... a mistake? Or are they cutting back on what backers paid for?
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I suspect the Disney scenario is a bit of an exceptional one. (And that the writer's association is going to hold their feet to the fire over it).

But it's always been a vague possibility more broadly right? That someone has a go at explicitly buying the IP, or the studios, but not the liabilities.

If we're gonna go for sneaky shenanigans though, we know that Ortwin has got tangled up with tax incentive naughtiness in the past, regarding German tax breaks for films. So, like, there's a minor track record when it comes to non-delivery making profits ;)

I offer up this copy of stuff that DS copied from elsewhere...

As for Ortwin, he too was linked to legal issue in Germany related to raising money for movies that were never going to be made. As one story goes, in 2007 Andreas Schmid and Andreas Grosch were both sentenced by a German court because they defrauded investors. Schmid was sentenced to 6 years in Jail.

The scheme was one in which investors would fund films and were promised a huge return on investment. Some of those films were either never produced, or were produced at a huge loss. The tax incentives for those loses remained with the company, while the investors lost their investment in whole or in part.

In the German media reports, (1, 2) Ortwin appeared in one of those cases and several of the movies listed Chris Roberts as the producer.

Aside from all that, Ascendant Pictures which both he and Chris were partners of, ceased operations and sold all its assets to Bigfoot Entertainment back in 2010. This was amid the legal tussle with Kevin Costner over – you guessed it – broken promises; and following a string of bad movies.
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Darkoff wrote up a missive about Chris and Ortwin's past foray into investor shenanigans and which had one person arrested for fraud.

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Chris roberts and the VIP4 incident

Back when chris roberts was doing movies. He got regularly financed by company called VIP Medienfonds LLC ([1], [2], [3]). As a bonus heres ortwins capella films that also received funding from VIP ([4]).

How VIP Worked was following:
If you - during the 1980 until 2010 - placed money in some film productions, the german tax authorities didnt consider this as an investment, but a partnership on a production. So you do have costs, not an investment, and for costs goes the rule: they reduce your tax rate — more costs, less tax to pay. So it was attractive to invest in VIP funds and pay less in taxes.

Chris Roberts and head of VIP originally met up during punisher film where he, Andreas Schmid and Andreas Grosch were acting as producers ([5]) after which the funding continued in various roberts movies. Raising up whopping 750 million dollars in total:

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Ascendant Pictures claims 250 million dollars in funding to produce 14 movies in 2003, the company was founded in 2002. in 2004 VIP4 package raised 350 million dollars and most of it was spend in chris roberts movies. The fundings was to be spend on film 100% and investors would get 100% of the income the movie would produce. But what ended up happening was that 20% of money was spend in making of movie and rest of funding gets funneled trough several companies into fixed deposit accounts. However they matched that 80% of money with bank loans Using investor money (15% of loan) as guarantee for loans.

Unfortunately for investors however only 20% got spend in films leaving 80% of investment without tax benefits
Even worse as movies started to bring in profit chris roberts would only pay 20% back to investors rest going into paying back loans and presumably again into fixed deposit accounts.

Unfortunately after VIP4 the company was put in charges for fraud, and man in charge Andreas Schmid was jailed for it. At same time most of board in Ascendant Pictures left and Ortwin joined in ([6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]).

Even worse for chris roberts he was in law suit with Kevin Costner over movie that never got made.


Final nail for ascendancy pictures happened when 2010 a former investor of VIP went to court and sued VIP and major banks for damages. The court calls up several people to make a statement, including Chris Roberts and Ortwin Freyermuth.

in previous cases both only talked via mail, shifting the blame completely to the VIP, but this time, the judges asked for answers and proof. The set date was the 16.07.2010. On the 06.07.2010, cr sold his company to Bigfoot Entertainment

Invite for chris and ortwin for german court:

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https://www.bundesanzeiger.de

• On the bundesanzeiger site, there is a search bar Suchbegriff
• Type: Rising Star
• Hit the Suchen button
• On the left, you should get 90hits, go for Gerichtlicher Teil (9)
• There is a doc called Terminladund, date: 17.05.2010

Judges called them for answers

1. Was CR forced to use only 20 % of the vip money?
2. If he was forced, did he know that this was illegal?
3. How much money did they get for all of the rising star company stuff?
4. Where are the contracts?
5. Who signed them?
6. Did CR know, that this system took away the majority of the income for the investors?
7. Why did he say nothing?
8. Why was he selling the entire company during the run time with the vip?

Ofc everyone involved in the final days of ascendant pictures were also hired into Star Citizen

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmY7nToxFJM

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mhyO26bVVw


http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ilm-financing-could-shape-the-future-of-games

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When Chris Roberts and I founded Cloud Imperium Games to launch the effort, we were not only drawing on Chris' legendary abilities and track record as a game designer in this field, but also on a combined experience of three decades in independent film financing and production.
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Rather than opting for the Kickstarter site, we created our own platform to establish a frictionless, direct relationship with the interested community. This allowed us also to fine tune our Terms of Use for a favorable legal and tax treatment.
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We learned a lesson when our initial platform was not stable enough and collapsed intermittently during the campaign. Due to our limited funds, we had commissioned the site design to a small developer. (Kickstarter graciously allowed us to create a parallel campaign on its platform to receive funds during our site outages. We since used the campaign funds to partner with a Canadian platform developer, and together we have built a very stable and advanced platform which now is not only serving our site, but is currently readied for other developers who are interested in following our path.)
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Any unforeseen changes in the development process would be reviewed and approved by experienced specialists who monitor that process - something very familiar in the film production process as well. The completion guarantor would assure that the project will either be delivered to the early buyers as promised, or return the funds. Based on the fees charged in the film business, the insurance premium for such a completion guarantee and associated monitoring would probably be around 5 to 7 percent of the development budget.)
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End of part 1. Hopefully i have enough material for part 2
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Continued...

Sure thing. I mostly sourced this from a person that claimed to be friend of investor that invested in VIP.
He then sourced his quotes in public german law documents. You can read those up in
https://www.bundesanzeiger.de

• On the bundesanzeiger site, there is a search bar Suchbegriff
• Type: Rising Star
• Hit the Suchen button
• On the left, you should get 90hits, go for Gerichtlicher Teil (9)
• There is a doc called Terminladund, date: 17.05.2010

other documents on that page contain interesting information as well for example heres a sample google translation

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The Rising Star companies were not active as actual production service providers, but rather were an artificially interposed level.

The Klageseite argues that the missing 80% of the budgeted production costs of the respective foreign coproduction partners procured. This means that the VIP4 fund does not produce a film by a production service provider, but that the resulting coproduction company between the fund and the foreign coproduction partner commissioned the film and subsequently obtained the resulting film rights in order to obtain proceeds from this, . The respective manufacturing and sales company in the USA should be regarded as a tax-relevant factory. As a result, the loss of the plant in the USA is attributable, so that foreign losses with the limited partners of the fund company can be determined separately and can only be offset with foreign income, § 2a EStG.
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rising star mentioned in example was Ortwin Freyermuth shell company that in turn funded ascendant pictures.

42012817.png


in addition i presume RS guarantors paid back guarantee's that were required by investors incase the film failed to produce.
guarantees that were supposed to be paid by chris roberts.
So investors basically paid their own investment guarantee's

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To issue 9:
The Senate is of the opinion of the defendant that it is clear from the factual sources cited in the prospectus (see, in particular, the letter of the prosecutor of the prosecutor of 1 March 2009, page 69 f = sheet 348 f dA) that a final payment of the Transfer to the fund company, but not to the individual investors.

However, a final assessment of the extent to which this is compatible (in the absence of a prospectus error) is necessary to show that the fund is shown as a "guarantee fund" on the cover sheet of the prospectus.

The protégé of complaint to 1 (appendix of 15.03.2011, there Bl. 68 = Bl. 764 dA) and the protégés of 2 refer to it correctly (the record of March 14, 2011, there page 16 = sheet 689 dA) Senate in its note dated 11 February 2011 is attributable to incorrect advice (outside the prospectus). This explains, however, only the misunderstanding at the customer, but not the misunderstandings of the consultants also mentioned in the mentioned note. To this extent, it should be considered whether the presentation as a "guarantee fund" did not suggest this misunderstanding - even for the sample complaint to 2. In addition, it should be borne in mind that the prospectus occasionally uses the notion of limited partnership capital in a meaning which is more specific to the investor 's individual contribution (notes 9 and 30: "Kommanditkapital ohne Agio", especially note 40: "Zu 01: Kommanditkapital in Amount of 100% of the subscription sum must be paid within one week "). It should be borne in mind that the prospectus is not addressed to the debt-taking bank or to licensees whose debt is to be borne by the bank, ie to the parties to the debt-taking agreement, but to the customer. The right understanding of this is therefore the point.
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the reason i haventh posted the answers is mostly because i haventh read those up yet. And these answers can be quite lengthy. For example

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The defendant (1) argues that the fund company is not only involved in the distribution of revenue in the amount of 20 per cent of its "risk capital". One would have to start from the contractual agreements between the respective contracting parties. Thus, the licensee guarantees the Fund certain minimum income from the exploitation of the film produced by the fund and made available for exploitation. This minimum license fee, which is agreed with the licensee and secured by the assumption of debt by the HypoVereinsbank, is the first stage of the distribution of revenue from the fund's point of view. It is part of the distribution of the respective cinematographic work and does not constitute a participation of the licensee in the production costs Of the position of the fund company. The latter alone bears the risk of production, which is already apparent from the fact that it is also the sole copyright. The distribution risk of the licensee must be strictly distinguished from this.

The only sensible reference quantity for the contractually stipulated minimum license closing payment at the time of prospecting was the (blind-pool) production costs, which had not yet been established at this time. In the case of VIP 4, on this basis, the licensee would have to guarantee a minimum license payment of 115% of the total cost of the project to the entire limited partnership capital (without agio) as consideration for granting the right to evaluate the filmproductions. This means a minimum license closing payment of 132.64 percent based on the production costs used in the respective project (production costs = limited partnership capital minus investment overheads and liquidity reserves, cf. page 67 et seq. Of the prospective prospectus). For this minimum closing payment a hedge had to be made by means of assumption of guilt by HypoVereinsbank.
Since the licensee is contractually obliged to secure his distribution guarantee before the completion and evaluation of the film by means of a debt takeover, he is entitled to deduct the expenses he has made for the "first" adjusted gross revenues. In the so-called "master agreements" one generally defined this distribution of the gross income. It should be borne in mind that the proceeds from the sale of the fund have already been hedged by the debt transfer agreement between the licensee and the defendant at the end of the fund period.

"Revised gross revenue" is the income that the film incurs after deduction of film distribution fees. Only after importing the film distribution fees, the distribution of the proceeds to producers (funds) and licensees. This is also shown in the contested prospectus on page 90 under the heading "license agreement". The defendant in paragraph 1) states: "It is clear from the clear text of the prospectus on page 90 that the obligation to obtain written sales estimates for the initial use of at least 125% for TV and 150% for cinema productions is included The distribution fee is the average value between the asking and accepting price of the Fund's share of the budgetary cost of production on the relationship between the licensee and the final licensee.

The further stages of the profit sharing rule the Master Agreement, as was the case, for example, in section 9 of the Master Agreement for the Soul of the Age project. The profit distribution scheme results in the hypothetical production costs of EUR 10 million, the actual revenue of EUR 16 million, and the distribution fees of (assuming) 30% of the revenues: the distribution of income (exemplified and simplified):

Production costs: EUR 10 million
Revenue from all recovery stages: EUR 16 million
Minus sales charge 30% from proceeds EUR 4.8 million
Adjusted (gross allocation) gross income EUR 11.2 million
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As you can see theres a lot of information to digest. And frankly i suck at these long write up's
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Tippis

Tippis
Nah. Surströmming only smells bad and isn't really “matured” — casu marzu is a much better fit, especially in terms of content, process, and meaning of the name. :p
 

Firkrayt

Firkrayt
SA said:
Some game designers border on intentionally malicious- Star Citizen's designers just say "gently caress it" and go all in. They really hate their players. Having met their players, I can't blame them.
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dayrth said:
It says there are 91 systems in the Star Map, which is probably true. It does not go on to say that they aren't actually in the game
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cheesenbiscuits

cheesenbiscuits
With there main competitor on the verge of releasing something that could possibly bury them,they need to rally and at the very least show a glimmer of hope that they are capable,best way to stand a remote chance is write a big cheque and get somebody else to do it.
Let’s hope they get the scale right this time.
 

Vasious

Vasious
Agony_Aunt said:
91 star systems? Erm... 1. But maybe they are doing a CIG and talking about the future in present tense? Still wrong, because backers plegded for 110!
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Ignoring that only one is in game
91 Systems on the Map of Known Space, with the remainder those ones people are supposed to find, or be introduced later.

I am sure you'll remember reading spectrum threads of people dreaming of being the one to discover and name a new system, charting the jump points etc.

That is the place the 91 to 110 live.

Plus probably where the Kr'Thak live as Xian wont share those maps with the UEE
 

sovapid

sovapid
cheesenbiscuits said:
With there main competitor on the verge of releasing something that could possibly bury them,they need to rally and at the very least show a glimmer of hope that they are capable,best way to stand a remote chance is write a big cheque and get somebody else to do it.
Let’s hope they get the scale right this time.
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im sure they will be hiding in solo mode. there is no main competitor.
 

VR Golgot

VR Golgot
Firkrayt said:
P.S. I've just noticed that Elite Troopers wear their helmets backwards: it has opaque railings in the field of view, while being completely transparent on the back of the head. Should be DeLacy design.
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First SC steals ED's travel times, now ED steals their excessive use of struts...
 
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