Star Citizen Thread v6

Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Hey, this might even be a GOOD thing.

Imagine this scenario:

1. CIG defaults on the loan.
2. SC and all it's assets (physical and non-physical) now belong to Coutts & Co.
3. Coutts and Co. seek another publisher to buy the assets from them (they wouldn't want to keep a game IP and assets in their portfolio - would make no sense).
4. Coutts sell SC and all its IP to a large game publisher.
5. Large Game publisher now takes hold of the project with proper project managers (sorry Chris we gotta let you go!)
6. Large Game publisher decides to honor the backers original stretch goals, manages project well and releases a decent Star Citizen that everyone backed for originally.
7. Profit
8. Backers happy.

I support Portsmouth Football Club (yes, I know). We've had some problems with owners. A few years ago our then-owner, an Israeli arms dealer (IIRC) sold us to an oil sheik. It was all given the OK by the FA, with background/credit checks & alll supposedly completed. Said oil sheik wasn't. 2 months or so after he took over he defaulted on the load that he'd made to buy the club and all of a sudden a rather cnfused banker in Hong Kong was the new owner. It was an interesting few years, but as a FC there were actual physical assets and a source of income. It wasn't pretty, though, and included literal last minute deals to stop the club from being permanently wound up while in receivership.

So yeah, hoping for #1 isn't great.

Also, IMO, no publisher would want to touch Star Citizen. For one, only one of the big boys has the cash to push the project to any sort of completion, and they all already have their own scifi IPs. Would they want the trouble of trying to push out and run an over-hyped FPS/MMO with that fanbase? Not if they wanted to retain their sanity.

The only way you'll get a complete game is if CIG are the ones to create it.

My god, the doomsday patrol is really active.

- It's standard practice to set up EVERYTHING as security just so that the Bank has a means to demand payment from liquidated assets just so the loan taker cant just run away
- Banks today would NOT loan money to a company they view as a security risk
- It also means that F42 can now RAISE the loan at need as long as the total value to their security allows it.
- The loan is at 0.25% which is not improbable with todays interest rates AND the ability as a customer to negotiate in todays extremely low interest rates
- The loan will be tax deductable
- If F42 need money to finish the SQ42 game it's MORE expensive to MOVE money from the US to UK than taking a loan
- With that low interest they can easily MAKE money by borrowing money and invest part of it to counter the low interest rate
- And no, the bank owns nothing of CIG, they have security of CIG assets in case of CIG failing to repay said loan

Source: My 20 years experience as an investment, financial and general banker.

It's still not a good look for a fully funded enterprise even if this is the case.

If we hear that all digital assets, staff & etc get moved to F42 then I'd hazard a guess that management are preparing to default and bail with whatever cash is elsewhere.
 
So I've just heard the latest news, and sadly my expectations of 2017 being the last year of star citizen's existence might come true after all.


All I will say is this.

" It is Coutts who've donnit Guv' ! "
 
V.M Varga Ortwin has this to say

We have noticed the speculations created by a posting on the website of UK’s Company House with respect to Coutt’s security for our UK Tax Rebate advance, and we would like to provide you with the following insight to help prevent some of the misinformation we have seen.


Our UK companies are entitled to a Government Game tax credit rebate which we earn every month on the Squadron 42 development. These rebates are payable by the UK Government in the fall of the next following year when we file our tax returns. Foundry 42 and its parent company Cloud Imperium Games UK Ltd. have elected to partner with Coutts, a highly regarded, very selective, and specialized UK banking institution, to obtain a regular advance against this rebate, which will allow us to avoid converting unnecessarily other currencies into GBP. We obviously incur a significant part of our expenditures in GBP while our collections are mostly in USD and EUR. Given today's low interest rates versus the ongoing and uncertain currency fluctuations, this is simply a smart money management move, which we implemented upon recommendation of our financial advisors.



The collateral granted in connection with this discounting loan is absolutely standard and pertains to our UK operation only, which develops Squadron 42. As a careful review of the security will show and contrary to some irresponsible and misleading reports, the collateral specifically excludes “Star Citizen.” The UK Government rebate entitlement, which is audited and certified by our outside auditors on a quarterly basis, is the prime collateral. Per standard procedure in banking, our UK companies of course stand behind the loan and guarantee repayment which, however, given the reliability of the discounted asset (a UK Government payment) is a formality and nothing else. This security does not affect our UK companies’ ownership and control of their assets. Obviously, the UK Government will not default on its rebate obligations which will be used for repayment, and even then the UK companies have ample assets to repay the loan, even in such an eventuality which is of course unthinkable.



This should clarify the matter. Thank you.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...e-uk-tax-rebate-advance-for-foundry-42/277779
 
It'll be interesting to see how much the rebate is actually supposed to be.

To be honest, though, I'm not too happy about my tax quids going towards this!


I think the rebate was listed in their recent filings. Something like £4 million iirc
 
Last edited:
Yes, I corrected that in another post but have not updated my original post, I might have to fix that.

To be honest, I find your disinterest in this difference... odd for someone with '20 years experience.'

"Hey, its only .25%, thats decent enough."
"Oh, its ten times more. Ah well, I guess that's also decent enough."

:S

Ofcourse, whatever happens is perfectly normal and fine and standard for you. I think the point for most here is that anyone outside SC thinks normality means 'making a plan and executing it'.

"We've got 20 million, that should do." Fans:"Cool, we've done it!"
"Never mind, we could do with 40 million more to reach all goals." Fans:"Sure, whatever you want!"
"Okay, we've got our 60 million, we've got everything we need for the expanded scope." Fans:"Cool!"
"Oh, we now have 150 million but it isn't enough anymore. Dont worry though, we'll soon sell a lot of Sq42!" Fans:"Cool, sounds reasonable to us!"
*rumours about a loan* Fans: "That makes perfect sense, we've always wanted them to take loans from big banks!"
*CIG says its not really a loan, although it kinda is* Fans:"See, it wasn't a loan, we never wanted a loan!"

Its just bizarre.
 
Last edited:
To be honest, I find your disinterest in this difference... odd for someone with '20 years experience.'

"Hey, its only .25%, thats decent enough."
"Oh, its ten times more. Ah well, I guess that's also decent enough."

:S

Ofcourse, whatever happens is perfectly normal and fine and standard for you. I think the point for most here is that anyone outside SC thinks normality means 'making a plan and executing it'.

"We've got 20 million, that should do." Fans:"Cool, we've done it!"
"Never mind, we could do with 40 million more to reach all goals." Fans:"Sure, whatever you want!"
"Okay, we've got our 60 million, we've got everything we need for the expanded scope." Fans:"Cool!"
"Oh, we now have 150 million but it isn't enough anymore. Dont worry though, we'll soon sell a lot of Sq42!" Fans:"Cool, sounds reasonable to us!"
*rumours about a loan* Fans: "That makes perfect sense, we've always wanted them to take loans from big banks!"
*CIG says its not really a loan, although it kinda is* Fans:"See, it wasn't a loan, we never wanted a loan!"

Its just bizarre.


+1

The sad story of yes men.
 
As I suspected, a great deal of fuss over what seems to be a minor issue. CIG are in the same position they were before this bit of nonsense: way behind in development, and entirely dependant for the funds necessary to complete the project on the seemingly bottomless pockets of 'backers', and on a continuing hype train which grasps at the merest trivial detail and theory-crafts totally out of all proportion. This time though, the speculation seems to have backfired...
 
We have noticed the speculations created by a posting on the website of UK’s Company House with respect to Coutt’s security for our UK Tax Rebate advance, and we would like to provide you with the following insight to help prevent some of the misinformation we have seen.


Our UK companies are entitled to a Government Game tax credit rebate which we earn every month on the Squadron 42 development. These rebates are payable by the UK Government in the fall of the next following year when we file our tax returns. Foundry 42 and its parent company Cloud Imperium Games UK Ltd. have elected to partner with Coutts, a highly regarded, very selective, and specialized UK banking institution, to obtain a regular advance against this rebate, which will allow us to avoid converting unnecessarily other currencies into GBP. We obviously incur a significant part of our expenditures in GBP while our collections are mostly in USD and EUR. Given today's low interest rates versus the ongoing and uncertain currency fluctuations, this is simply a smart money management move, which we implemented upon recommendation of our financial advisors.



The collateral granted in connection with this discounting loan is absolutely standard and pertains to our UK operation only, which develops Squadron 42. As a careful review of the security will show and contrary to some irresponsible and misleading reports, the collateral specifically excludes “Star Citizen.” The UK Government rebate entitlement, which is audited and certified by our outside auditors on a quarterly basis, is the prime collateral. Per standard procedure in banking, our UK companies of course stand behind the loan and guarantee repayment which, however, given the reliability of the discounted asset (a UK Government payment) is a formality and nothing else. This security does not affect our UK companies’ ownership and control of their assets. Obviously, the UK Government will not default on its rebate obligations which will be used for repayment, and even then the UK companies have ample assets to repay the loan, even in such an eventuality which is of course unthinkable.



This should clarify the matter. Thank you.

I'm sorry but that whole statement by Ortwin looks to me like complete and utter .

The GBP is currently weak against the USD and EURO, so one dollar or one Euro buys more GBP than it would if the pound was strong. There is absolutely no reason for a loan if currency rates are the only reason. There is no issue around currency fluctuations as the GBP is going to remain weak for the next couple of years while the Brexit negotions go on - no one bets on an uncertain currency.

Also,as this PDF states they have put up all their assets as collateral which is a risky move.

If CIG had a healthy cash balance they could quite easily wait for the government tax rebate in the autumn, and raise money against just this rebate WITHOUT putting all of their intelectual property at risk.

The linked PDF goes against what Ortwin is stating, this is not just linked to F42. I'm not a lawyer however but I've spent a lot of my proffesional life dealing with them.

If anyone can show me where I'm wrong here I'm happy to hear it.
 
Last edited:
That Ortwin guy :) is he basically saying that they are living "hand to mouth" and need this to stretch until this magic rebate comes through?
 
Well this week should be fun, what are the odds on Alpha 3 being delayed?

I love the way they confident that the government will pay the rebate. They probably will but sometimes well bureaucrats get in the way! took 12 months to get one of my rebates out of those tight fisted, an completely lovely people:D that work at inland revenue, would hate to have the banks breathing down my necks and deal with the in land revenue, but that just me.
 
Last edited:
So is that a tax rebate for "R&D" or is it part of the tax relief for UK games companies?

For the UK tax relief I believe you have to pass a cultural test first. I don't think just having a UK base qualifies, the product has to be "British" in culture as I understand it.
 
Hey, this might even be a GOOD thing.

Imagine this scenario:

1. CIG defaults on the loan.
2. SC and all it's assets (physical and non-physical) now belong to Coutts & Co.
3. Coutts and Co. seek another publisher to buy the assets from them (they wouldn't want to keep a game IP and assets in their portfolio - would make no sense).
4. Coutts sell SC and all its IP to a large game publisher.
5. Large Game publisher now takes hold of the project with proper project managers (sorry Chris we gotta let you go!)
6. Large Game publisher decides to honor the backers original stretch goals, manages project well and releases a decent Star Citizen that everyone backed for originally.
7. Profit
8. Backers happy.

SC 2030?
 
Whatever this Otwin is saying is basically damage reduction and OH LOOK OVER THERE! Diversion from the real financial difficulty the company is in.

He's basically saying - oh its to dodge currency fluctuations. Sure sure, you need Coutts and a loan for that.....

Not sure they can brush it under the carpet so easily, although looking at that thread, the fans are lapping up the explanation.
 
Last edited:
New news pages popping up:

http://www.inquisitr.com/4322447/is...ith-a-loan-and-owned-by-a-bank-no-not-really/

Looks like this is a clickbait article. The writer doesn't appear to have done much research at all - he's claiming that the company is in the excluded collateral? How does this compare to the first 3 pages of the document? Still confused. :S

https://www.pcinvasion.com/second-star-citizen-loan-explained

Also, just googled, found this https://forums.starcitizenbase.com/topic/21442-ship-loaner-matrix-cig/

[haha] Is this something to do with the loan? :D

Well, maybe it's not all bad. Worst comes to a shove, they can always take out a third loan to pay off the other two :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom