Thargoid invasion - Next target systems?

[Phill P]

Regarding the Injured missions, these average 4-6 permission usually so if you're taking from multiple ports (usually ~5 missions per port) you can fill all 20 mission slots for 80-120 injured.
If there are fewer ports we might come up short so filling remaining slots with passenger cabins allows us to grab refugees on an ad hoc basis when we have spare missions.

You can do that, it depends on if you think that's more productive time wise to visit multiple stations to pick them up first, I suppose it's situational depending on the distance between them. Min maxing is never just about one thing.

For example, to visit multiple ports unless you are lucky and they are all L pads you'll be in a medium ship. Python is favourite. To visit 4 different ports to obtain 80-120 Injured and get them to the rescue ship will likely take 45 minutes or so, especially if you're mixing up space ports and ground ports. Maybe you'll take a large or a couple of small passenger missions to top up.

In that same 45 minutes I use the Conda to take 160 passengers and 32t Injured per trip, let's call it 20-32 per trip in case I don't fill up every time, and with the longer jump range and fewer jumps than the Python I do 4 trips.

That's 20 missions and 80-120 Injured plus whatever passengers you have space left over for and their mission bonuses

vs

80-128 Injured with the same amount of Injured missions, just spread over 4 trips instead of 1, plus 640 passengers and a minimum of 8 passenger mission bonuses even if I just take two 80s.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

It won't fully translate due to the different activities in different system types, no passengers in Controls for example.

Speaking exactly of this—one part of the Control consideration is what it costs to evict versus what it will cost Alert pilots next cycle if it attacks, which ends up relating the two despite the actions not translating fully as you say.

I have one other very related question there; have you taken or are you aware of any strength measurements for Alert systems? Especially valuable would be if you have any recorded examples of some particular Alert systems and by how much they seem to move due to harvesting, though knowing the progress movement for other actions would also be lovely if I can use the measures from CMDR Carpets to compare it with harvesting. The goal is very much to check whether a system needs a lower, similar or higher amount to win as Control versus Alert!

Regarding the differing index units for different actions, V reckons he can conjure a version of the difficulty table and graphs which uses your discoveries to provide a built-in translation, so that individual Commanders can choose the unit and view a system strength which matches their specific actions.

Additional: Checking the numbers for Ngolite earlier, if one passenger unit is 0.000014385 and there are fifty to the Research sample, that places Ngolite as Alert at 1391 on the scale I have been using, which seems on the softer side of being a quite close match!

 

[Felix DiCestria]

You can do that, it depends on if you think that's more productive time wise to visit multiple stations to pick them up first, I suppose it's situational depending on the distance between them. Min maxing is never just about one thing.

For example, to visit multiple ports unless you are lucky and they are all L pads you'll be in a medium ship. Python is favourite. To visit 4 different ports to obtain 80-120 Injured and get them to the rescue ship will likely take 45 minutes or so, especially if you're mixing up space ports and ground ports. Maybe you'll take a large or a couple of small passenger missions to top up.

In that same 45 minutes I use the Conda to take 160 passengers and 32t Injured per trip, let's call it 20-32 per trip in case I don't fill up every time, and with the longer jump range and fewer jumps than the Python I do 4 trips.

That's 20 missions and 80-120 Injured plus whatever passengers you have space left over for and their mission bonuses

vs

80-128 Injured with the same amount of Injured missions, just spread over 4 trips instead of 1, plus 640 passengers and a minimum of 8 passenger mission bonuses even if I just take two 80s.

With a maximum of 120 cargo there's plenty of space for an FSD booster so jump range isn't an issue. I can hit all the orbital outposts and turn around time isn't significantly different, unless as you say there's one port waaay out in middle of nowhere. (Though they tend to have more missions available than the ones close to entry point.)

 

[Phill P]

Speaking exactly of this—one part of the Control consideration is what it costs to evict versus what it will cost Alert pilots next cycle if it attacks, which ends up relating the two despite the actions not translating fully as you say.

There are points of contact, sure, as long as the difference between them and a full 1 to 1 comparison is kept in mind. It's always tempting to take an analogy too far and forget the very real differences between things.

I have one other very related question there; have you taken or are you aware of any strength measurements for Alert systems? Especially valuable would be if you have any recorded examples of some particular Alert systems and by how much they seem to move due to harvesting, though knowing the progress movement for other actions would also be lovely if I can use the measures from CMDR Carpets to compare it with harvesting. The goal is very much to check whether a system needs a lower, similar or higher amount to win as Control versus Alert!

Without having a lot of exact numbers yet, early days and all that, Populated Alerts take about 4x as many samples as Unpopulated. IIRC the table you showed me for Controls was about the same. That is balanced, however, by a significantly slower gather rate in Alerts.

Pegasi Sector GW-V b2-3, unpopulated at 25.02 Ly, took about 270 samples whereas the estimation for Awara at 22 Ly was 1370.

Distance from maelstrom is less urgent than Controls as Alerts are in a narrower range (for now), so if by strength you mean how much the difficulty is modified by distance, we'll know more as we clear more and get good figures then maybe plot them. Or you can if you like.

Regarding the differing index units for different actions, V reckons he can conjure a version of the difficulty table and graphs which uses your discoveries to provide a built-in translation, so that individual Commanders can choose the unit and view a system strength which matches their specific actions.

Neat. Look forward to that.

Additional: Checking the numbers for Ngolite earlier, if one passenger unit is 0.000014385 and there are fifty to the Research sample, that places Ngolite as Alert at 1391 on the scale I have been using, which seems on the softer side of being a quite close match!

That was before the last work drop though. I would expect it to be fewer samples now, if Awara is now 1370.

 

[Phill P]

@Aleks Zuno

I have a few figures so far if they are any use to you;

Pegasi Sector GW-V b2-3 - 25.02 Ly

• progress at start - 0.017399
• 315 samples and a few scout kills - final progress 1.199806

Arietis Sector JR-V b2-2 - 26.29 Ly

• progress at start - 0.000000
• 300 samples and a few scout kills - final progress 1.114820

Col 285 Sector AP-F b12-2 - 30.07 Ly (this time I eliminated the scout kills from the equation first)

• progress at start - 0.015072
• before hand in due to scout kills - 0.021521
• 281 samples handed in - final progress 1.075226

 

[Aleks Zuno]

I have a few figures so far if they are any use to you;

Those are very, very useful insofar as they reveal a different shape to the strength graph for Alert versus Control! They are also all lower strength than with Control, but they seem to have leveled out a bit already beyond 25 Ly, whereas empty Control systems do that after 30 Ly.

Side-by-side, their strengths look like this:

System​	Distance​	Alert​	Control​
Pegasi Sector GW-V b2-3​	25.918235​	~268​	437​
Arietis Sector JR-V b2-2​	26.286099​	~271​	426​
Col 285 Sector AP-F b12-2​	30.067064​	267​	308​

Those Control strengths lie on the middle 25–30 Ly section of this graph, referring to the lower line through the green points, which is still sloped at that Maelstrom distance (unlike populated Control systems which are also mostly flat there). Either way, Alerts look definitely cheaper to remove numerically before any difficulties of obtaining Scouts are introduced, or their two-week respite versus four for Control of course.

Based on that, I believe there will be five different strength shapes for empty and populated Alert, Invasion, and empty and populated Control which need not be scaled or shifted versions of the others!

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Victories in Unktety, HIPs 20890, 2422 and 111081, Awara, Pegasi Sectors XQ-J a10-0 and RE-N a8-1, and Col 285 Sector AP-F b12-2! Only the under-attack-outpost Invasion remains, and thanks to the attacks stopped last week we are also already on the cusp of matching those which remain at 23 victories to 24 attacks.

Delivery is in progress now for Col 285 Sectors KW-M c7-12, KW-M c7-29 and KW-M c7-31. After those, the next few to be considered warranted are Col 285 Sectors RM-B b14-0, RM-B b14-2 and RM-B b14-8; definitely this is one of the more expensive treatments of M. Hadad.

Invasion at 18:00 1st July 3309:
Koko Oh Invasion 38% *38.7% — Raijin 27 Ly, 3 ports, 489 Ls outpost attack

Evictions:
Col 285 Sector ZE-P c6-11 Control 20% — Cocijo 29 Ly, ~1187 strength
Vucumatha Control 18% — Cocijo 23 Ly, ~2180 strength
Muchihiks Control 14% *14.5% — Oya 20 Ly, ~4696 strength

Alerts:
Nu Guang Alert 56% — Raijin 19 Ly, 44 Ls starport, 1040 Ls outpost, 44 Ls planet
HIP 20527 Alert 52% *53.6% — Indra 23 Ly, 595 Ls starport, 834 Ls outpost, 4805 Ls planet
HIP 21991 Alert 22% *23.3% — Taranis 26 Ly, 1149 Ls starport
Paeni Alert 16% *16.5% — Taranis 27 Ly, 404 Ls starport
Asletae Alert 10% — Cocijo 29 Ly, 16 Ls outpost, 52 Ls planet
Nihal Alert 10% — Taranis 21 Ly, 868 Ls outpost
HIP 20491 Alert 10% — Indra 23 Ly, 1714 Ls planet

Clean-up:
Pegasi Sector OI-S b4-4 Control 70% — Raijin 22 Ly, empty, ~238 strength
Pegasi Sector RE-N a8-4 Control 58% — Raijin 25 Ly, empty, ~190 strength

 

[PapaDragon_I]

Muchihiks should be done with the next tick. We´re currently selling the sampels.
SNPX is moving then to work in Hip 24329

 

[Shayan al Nasarwa]

I don't know if this is already known: there is the bug that when you buy in a carrier's commodity market, you don't see the cargo in the hold, but only when you go into the commodity market the second time.

This can be utilised when transporting corrosive cargo. I just flew out over 700 tonnes of tissue samples at once with my cutter without getting any corrosive damage. Only when you call up the goods market on the rescue ship do you get the message that the cargo hold is full...

This makes unloading operations much faster!!!


I tried to unload some more samples than I had anti-corrosive cargo. The first time I transferred the cargo directly in the right menu. Before landing on the rescue ship my canopy crashed (with an overload of 16 samples). On the second transport I bought the samples over the commodities market. I got no message that my cargo was full, nor got any message, that modules are damaged.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

I don't know if this is already known: there is the bug that when you buy in a carrier's commodity market, you don't see the cargo in the hold, but only when you go into the commodity market the second time.

This can be utilised when transporting corrosive cargo. I just flew out over 700 tonnes of tissue samples at once with my cutter without getting any corrosive damage.

720 on my Cutter! It also prevents pirates sensing automatically that you have it, does not appear on a Manifest scanner¹, and does not count towards your total mass as far as your jump range is concerned.

Be very careful not to rely on it, though! Aside from any potential future fixes for it, all it takes is one incident involving everything crashing or disconnecting, and when you next press Continue your hold will show all of it and it will start eating one full module at a time. Definitely do it in a starship which is already built for carrying corrosive cargo that way; everything filled with sacrificial modules, multiple AFMU to be sure you can repair your Thrusters if needed, and enough power to continue operating with a Power plant malfunction.

Remember also that module corrosive damage occurs on a fixed timer which is restarted upon any low or high wake; it is enough to jump between systems continuously without damage, although only by a few seconds. Use small supercruise steps!

1. Tested personally.

 

[Phill P]

Those are very, very useful insofar as they reveal a different shape to the strength graph for Alert versus Control! They are also all lower strength than with Control, but they seem to have leveled out a bit already beyond 25 Ly, whereas empty Control systems do that after 30 Ly.

Side-by-side, their strengths look like this:

System​	Distance​	Alert​	Control​
Pegasi Sector GW-V b2-3​	25.918235​	~268​	437​
Arietis Sector JR-V b2-2​	26.286099​	~271​	426​
Col 285 Sector AP-F b12-2​	30.067064​	267​	308​

Interesting. I was scratching my head for a while at why Pegasi at 25 ly required a couple less samples than Arietis at 26 ly. But Pegasus is in Raijin which controls 160 systems and Arietis is in Indra which controls 155, so I guess that explains it.

 

[Phill P]

Col 285 Sector AF-P c6-16 - 30.97Ly

• start 0.000000
• scout kills before hand in - 0.000413
• 296 samples - final progress 1.113003

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Victories in Col 285 Sectors KW-M c7-12, KW-M c7-29, KW-M c7-31, RM-B b14-0, RM-B b14-2 and AF-P c6-16, Muchihiks, Pegasi Sectors OI-S b4-4 and RE-N a8-4, and Koko Oh!

Evictions at 08:20 2nd July 3309:
Col 285 Sector ZE-P c6-11 Control 36% *37.4% — Cocijo 29 Ly, ~929 strength
Vistnero Control 32% — Raijin 21 Ly, ~2658 strength
Vucumatha Control 22% *22.5% — Cocijo 23 Ly, ~2061 strength

Alerts:
HIP 20527 Alert 90% — Indra 23 Ly, 595 Ls starport, 834 Ls outpost, 4805 Ls planet
Nu Guang Alert 66% *66.3% — Raijin 19 Ly, 44 Ls starport, 1040 Ls outpost, 44 Ls planet
HIP 21991 Alert 60% — Taranis 26 Ly, 1149 Ls starport, 2928 Ls planet
HIP 20491 Alert 40% — Indra 23 Ly, 3194 Ls planet
Asletae Alert 26% — Cocijo 29 Ly, 16 Ls outpost, 93 Ls planet
Paeni Alert 20% — Taranis 27 Ly, 404 Ls starport
Pathamon Alert 18% — Leigong 22 Ly, 105 Ls starport, 105 Ls planet

Clean-up:
90 c1 Tauri Control 42% *42.9% — Indra 26 Ly, empty, ~240 strength

Col 285 Sector AF-P c6-16 - 30.97Ly

• start 0.000000
• scout kills before hand in - 0.000413
• 296 samples - final progress 1.113003

267 again, very much a match for Col 285 Sector AP-F b12-2 at a quite similar distance. It will be a slower process with Alerts being fewer in number than the Controls, but exactly these measurements will reveal eventually the real shape for Alert difficulty! Of interest next will be those Alert systems between 20–25 Ly; there is some scientific value in over-achieving the repelled Col 285 Sector TS-Z b14-3 a little, perhaps 10–20 samples or so to take a measurement if you see fit to know. Otherwise, next week there should be at least Col 285 Sectors SX-Z b14-1, NG-E b12-3 and NG-E b12-4.

Thus far, we know the mostly-flat part occurs for empty Alerts beyond 25 Ly at a Harvest strength around 270, such that 275 would be a quite good target to use to assure completion. If it falls within your mission to test that idea in Col 285 Sector BA-P c6-8 and you make an attempt with 275 which stops short of completion, I pledge now either to finish it or to clear it as Control before midnight Thursday!

Interesting. I was scratching my head for a while at why Pegasi at 25 ly required a couple less samples than Arietis at 26 ly. But Pegasus is in Raijin which controls 160 systems and Arietis is in Indra which controls 155, so I guess that explains it.

All of them are within but a few units; it is very much more likely that somebody exploded an Orthrus in the former, where your measurements reveal that it should account quite well for a difference of four!

 

[Phill P]

Victories in Col 285 Sectors KW-M c7-12, KW-M c7-29, KW-M c7-31, RM-B b14-0, RM-B b14-2 and AF-P c6-16, Muchihiks, Pegasi Sectors OI-S b4-4 and RE-N a8-4, and Koko Oh!

Evictions at 08:20 2nd July 3309:
Col 285 Sector ZE-P c6-11 Control 36% *37.4% — Cocijo 29 Ly, ~929 strength
Vistnero Control 32% — Raijin 21 Ly, ~2658 strength
Vucumatha Control 22% *22.5% — Cocijo 23 Ly, ~2061 strength

Alerts:
HIP 20527 Alert 90% — Indra 23 Ly, 595 Ls starport, 834 Ls outpost, 4805 Ls planet
Nu Guang Alert 66% *66.3% — Raijin 19 Ly, 44 Ls starport, 1040 Ls outpost, 44 Ls planet
HIP 21991 Alert 60% — Taranis 26 Ly, 1149 Ls starport, 2928 Ls planet
HIP 20491 Alert 40% — Indra 23 Ly, 3194 Ls planet
Asletae Alert 26% — Cocijo 29 Ly, 16 Ls outpost, 93 Ls planet
Paeni Alert 20% — Taranis 27 Ly, 404 Ls starport
Pathamon Alert 18% — Leigong 22 Ly, 105 Ls starport, 105 Ls planet

Clean-up:
90 c1 Tauri Control 42% *42.9% — Indra 26 Ly, empty, ~240 strength




267 again, very much a match for Col 285 Sector AP-F b12-2 at a quite similar distance. It will be a slower process with Alerts being fewer in number than the Controls, but exactly these measurements will reveal eventually the real shape for Alert difficulty! Of interest next will be those Alert systems between 20–25 Ly; there is some scientific value in over-achieving the repelled Col 285 Sector TS-Z b14-3 a little, perhaps 10–20 samples or so to take a measurement if you see fit to know. Otherwise, next week there should be at least Col 285 Sectors SX-Z b14-1, NG-E b12-3 and NG-E b12-4.

Thus far, we know the mostly-flat part occurs for empty Alerts beyond 25 Ly at a Harvest strength around 270, such that 275 would be a quite good target to use to assure completion. If it falls within your mission to test that idea in Col 285 Sector BA-P c6-8 and you make an attempt with 275 which stops short of completion, I pledge now either to finish it or to clear it as Control before midnight Thursday!




All of them are within but a few units; it is very much more likely that somebody exploded an Orthrus in the former, where your measurements reveal that it should account quite well for a difference of four!

You think it might have been an Orthrus kill? Can't rule it out I suppose.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

System strength update! Returning to empty Control systems, we have now some quite nice information from M. Hadad which helps to reveal the 15–20 Ly range. The junction-points below also use a slightly updated method to determine them; they are adjusted upwards very slightly so that they never underestimate any known cases. To make them easy to communicate, they are restricted only to be whole Harvest units, referring to one Scout or Interceptor Research sample.

As before, estimates should be performed by taking a linear interpolation between the junction-points based only on the Maelstrom distance. For empty Control systems, the junction-points in use by INIV now are:

Maelstrom distance​	Harvest strength​
15 Ly​	3102​
20 Ly​	1083​
25 Ly​	465​
30 Ly​	309​
35 Ly​	305​
40 Ly​	301​
45 Ly​	298​
50 Ly​	295​

Visually:

Mind once again that these are only for empty Control systems; the four other types of system have different shapes. The outdated, shifted version for populated Control systems is unfit to show, and for empty Alert systems we know only that it becomes all but flat beyond 25 Ly at approximately 270 strength.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Victories in HIPs 21991 and 20527! I suggest a bit of care with Alert activity from now; minding that it is a holiday weekend for many, we are reaching the end of the projection for this week.

Col 285 Sectors RM-B b14-8 and VS-Z b14-0 await delivery and Col 285 Sector WN-Z b14-5 is warranted, after which we will strike at the M. Thor attackers starting with HIPs 20509 and 20489!

Evictions at 18:00 2nd July 3309:
Vistnero Control 72% *73% — Raijin 21 Ly, ~1056 strength
Col 285 Sector ZE-P c6-11 Control 36% *37.6% — Cocijo 29 Ly, ~926 strength
Vucumatha Control 22% *22.5% — Cocijo 23 Ly, ~2061 strength

Alerts:
Nu Guang Alert 76% *77.6% — Raijin 19 Ly, 44 Ls starport, 1040 Ls outpost, 44 Ls planet
HIP 20491 Alert 44% — Indra 23 Ly, 1720 Ls planet
Asletae Alert 40% *41.3% — Cocijo 29 Ly, 16 Ls outpost, 93 Ls planet
Paeni Alert 28% — Taranis 27 Ly, 404 Ls starport, 571 Ls outpost
Pathamon Alert 24% *24.6% — Leigong 22 Ly, 105 Ls starport, 105 Ls planet
Borderline, perhaps one:
Ngolite Alert 18% — Raijin 27 Ly, 48 Ls starport
Nihal Alert 16% *16.2% — Taranis 21 Ly, 2475 Ls outpost

Clean-up:
90 c1 Tauri Control 44% *44.6% — Indra 26 Ly, empty, ~233 strength

 

[Phill P]

Col 285 Sector BA-P c6-8 - 30.99 Ly

• start 0.000000
• scout kills before hand in - 0.002405
• 283 samples - final progress 1.068129

All unpopulated Alerts clear.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Victories in HIPs 20509, 20489 and 20491, Col 285 Sectors GF-G b11-5, HF-G b11-2, IA-G b11-2, RM-B b14-8, VS-Z b14-0, WN-Z b14-5 and BA-P c6-8 (thank you PDES!), and 90 c1 Tauri! Vistnero and Nu Guang seek the smallest push each, Nihal surges into focus, and HIP 19157 is rising also past other systems.

Evictions at 07:20 3rd July 3309:
Vistnero Control 98% — Raijin 21 Ly, ~79 strength
Col 285 Sector ZE-P c6-11 Control 36% *37.6% — Cocijo 29 Ly, ~926 strength
Vucumatha Control 26% *26.2% — Cocijo 23 Ly, ~1962 strength

Alerts:
Nu Guang Alert 98% *99% — Raijin 19 Ly, 44 Ls starport, 1040 Ls outpost, 44 Ls planet
Asletae Alert 70% — Cocijo 29 Ly, 16 Ls outpost, 93 Ls planet
Nihal Alert 58% *59.1% — Taranis 21 Ly, 2475 Ls outpost
Pathamon Alert 44% *44.4% — Leigong 22 Ly, 105 Ls starport, 105 Ls planet
Paeni Alert 42% *43.8% — Taranis 27 Ly, 404 Ls starport, 571 Ls outpost
Borderline, perhaps one:
HIP 19157 Alert 28% *28.1% — Indra 22 Ly, 705 Ls starport, 217 Ls planet
Ngolite Alert 26% — Raijin 27 Ly, 48 Ls starport

Col 285 Sector BA-P c6-8 - 30.99 Ly

• start 0.000000
• scout kills before hand in - 0.002405
• 283 samples - final progress 1.068129

266, much as expected! You must be slaying quite the number of Scouts; that amount is the difference between measuring 265.54 versus 264.95. Well done for monitoring it!

 

[Phill P]

266, much as expected!

The model seems to hold, with each bit of data we get confirming the curve for you.

You must be slaying quite the number of Scouts; that amount is the difference between measuring 265.54 versus 264.95.

Strange, isn't it? It doesn't feel like I'm killing that many. The Orthrus calls in 3 first of all, then another 5 or 6. I kill all but two and sample those, using two so I can just sit there and have one in range of new limpets more often than not. 3 trips to do the average unpopulated Alert is only around 21 scouts so I think they simply have more impact because of the smaller amount of work needed to clear the system.

It does make me wonder though. We use Orthrus signals for sampling because NPCs don't drop in and shoot the Scouts before we can finish, but with signal sources now more frequent they are viable to farm again. Not as fast as sampling but something else the casual AX player could do. No Glaive hyperdictions going in if you avoid Control systems on the way and no Thargoid interdictions at all in system.

A fast Scout killer with some cargo space for picking up salvage at the same time could get decent progress farming Combat Aftermaths, AX Weapons Fire etc. if sampling isn't your thing. Your call if you want to set it up to kill Interceptors as well and go NHSS farming the old fashioned way.

Well done for monitoring it!

We will continue to do so. But probably not for the rest of the week, since we will be doing the populated Alerts that will be a pain to rescue from if they go into Invasion, and the work there already makes it more problematic to track.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

It's been theorized that handing in probes/sensors gathered from Orthrus encounters to the rescue ships also contributes (they appear to be tagged with an origin system the same as samples), may be worth measuring to confirm/deny.