The Cassiopeia Project

[Jaiotu]

Just a novice question: I've seen some mention of those that have collected out-of-game data and shared via spreadsheet, etc. Is this considered to be part of the data collection process in this mission?

I'd really like to see this mission apply real-world science toward solving the mystery of what happened to Cas A and Tycho's SNR in the game as much as possible. Any data or info that can be shared, whether via spreadsheet or any other medium would be appreciated. Especially important will be making a comprehensive list of 'candidate systems' for both Cas A and Tycho's star.

 

[Cpt.Bilsn]

So after some time poking around role settings, channel settings and so on, the Discord server should be set up. Here is the invite link: https://discord.gg/kfUwWme .

This link is set up to never expire, so you should be able to use it anywhere and for anyone. I've also make it give temporary access, so it's ok to use as invite for general public as when they disconnect they are automatically kicked and have to use this link again if they want to go back (yes I am paranoid about spam like that). That of course only apply for guests, anyone with expedition member status will have normal access to server. (so the server is kinda semi-public right now). Also please keep in mind if you are setting a Discord account for the first time, you should have your e-mail verified by link they send you after registration otherwise you might not be able to join.

I do not expect a lot of people to be joining before the expedition starts but it would be helpful to have few moderators in advance (they can give other people expedition member status amongst other things) and I've prepared the role of Expedition leader for Jaiotu (so he'd have almost full control over server).

Feel free to contact me if you need anything set up on server or if you feel something should be changed on it, I usually stalk forums on my mobile all day so I can react to PM's reasonably quickly most often than not (I am gmt+1 mind you), I can even function in very limited way on discord on mobile but I have Windows 10 phone so no app for me and their mobile UI in browser is terrible, I could probably give expedition member status through it but that's all, I can't even textchat, so I would need PM beforehand anyway. It's the first time I am working with Discord so I hope I didn't screw something up in spectacular way .

edit:
If you wanna add to our discord either PM me or stalk the channel, if I see you and you have same nick as in roaster spread sheet, I'll set you up as expedition member right away.

 

[hiciacit]

The Cas - A / Tycho is tangentially related (maybe) to the Formidine Rift mystery.

Yeah, I remember the discussions from earlier in the Rift thread. That would be grand, hey: the mystery of the Formidine Rift is that CassA/Tycho are not in the game. Simply not there. Cannot be found. The reasons why could be puzzled together from old news items that appeared in stations of the Old Worlds and that have long since been pushed into oblivion by more recent news on faction state changes.

It is inconceivable to me that Frontier simply forgot to put it in the game.

Not to be the party pooper here, but maybe you should reconsider that statement. Or well: I'm sure a distinguished scholar as Professor Steven Eisler would agree with me that rigid beliefs do not suit a man of science . Hardly any of the know supernova remnants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_supernova_remnants) appear in game. Maybe there is some mysterious in game reason for this observation, e.g. a race of AI constructs built Dyson spheres around all of them obfuscating their existence, but we shouldn't dismiss a more mundane reason such as an oversight from FD.

In any case, it could be worth doing some analysis and broaden the scope (to SNRs in general) before setting out on what might be a wild goose chase:

• Most SNRs do not seem to be in game, but I only did a quick check in the galaxy map based on the common identifiers. Maybe trying out identifiers from other star catalogues (as can be found on SIMBAD) might give us some hits.
• Is there a pattern to the ones that exist in game vs. the ones that do not? Visible nebula remnants (e.g. Veil) or known core remnants (e.g. Crab Pulsar) seem to be there, but maybe this is not the case for supernovas that do not leave a core (caused by pair-instability for instance) and/or do not have a shell that is detectable in the visible spectrum (such as Cassiopeia A)? If such a pattern exists at all, could it be due to the star catalogues FD based themselves on? Or maybe is there some in game reason after all? It's also worth noting that while Sagittarius A* (the supermassive black hole 'remnant core') is in the game, the non-visible shell (Sagittarius A East/West) is not.

Most of this can be checked without ever even leaving the docking pad. A diligent scientists does 90% of the work at his desk.

Edit: something worth considering as well is how FD have constructed their galaxy. For sure, they did not take into account any complex differences that might be caused by the ten thousands of years that we are 'looking into the past' when it comes to observing the farthest edges of our galaxy. It also doesn't seem that they took into account any changes that might occur by the year 3300 (e.g. precession); I think they have just modeled the galaxy as we observe it today, and I seem to remember they said as much in relation to the observable sky from Sol: for all intent and purposes 3300AD ~ 2014AD. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they just used the J2000 epoch for positioning known stars in the galaxy. That said, in case it is useful I did the calculations at some point, and I have these coordinates (x,y,z):

• Cassiopeia A, assuming 11000ly from Sol: (-10211,-412,-4070)
• Tycho's star, assuming 8900ly from Sol: (-7698,221,-4461)

 

[Jaiotu]

Not to be the party pooper here, but maybe you should reconsider that statement. Or well: I'm sure a distinguished scholar as Professor Steven Eisler would agree with me that rigid beliefs do not suit a man of science . Hardly any of the know supernova remnants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_supernova_remnants) appear in game.

I am speaking with a degree of hyperbole when I say that it is 'inconceivable' that they don't exist in the game universe.

Here's what give me hope: I've bug reported the fact that they are missing and still haven't gotten a response and ... they saw fit to publish my article about the expedition in Galnet so, if it is a bug, it is now a very public one.

With regards to the list of SNR remnants from wikipedia: An interesting side project might be cataloging which SNR actually exist in the game and which appear to be missing. We can use that data to determine if there is a specific pattern that can be used to predict which ones exist and which ones don't. We could at least "reverse engineer" the though process that the developers used when hand-crafting these systems into the game.

My thoughts:

1. If the fact that they are missing is deliberate then maybe this expedition can uncover some great mystery of the galaxy that will change the way we all experience the game. It's fun to think that we could participate in such a discovery.

2. If, however, they were excluded as a oversight then Frontier has two months to add content that explains why they are missing and uncovering that content would be awesome as well.

3. If their being missing is due to a design decision (too difficult to implement or some other programming reason) then we can present the results of our findings to the community in the for of something like "we believe that these systems are possible candidates for the missing SNR..." OR we can create our own conspiracy theory regarding why they are missing: "Thargoids exploded them eons ago and consumed the remnants to power their civilization!"

 

[Jaiotu]

So after some time poking around role settings, channel settings and so on, the Discord server should be set up. Here is the invite link: https://discord.gg/kfUwWme .

This link is set up to never expire, so you should be able to use it anywhere and for anyone. I've also make it give temporary access, so it's ok to use as invite for general public as when they disconnect they are automatically kicked and have to use this link again if they want to go back (yes I am paranoid about spam like that). That of course only apply for guests, anyone with expedition member status will have normal access to server. (so the server is kinda semi-public right now). Also please keep in mind if you are setting a Discord account for the first time, you should have your e-mail verified by link they send you after registration otherwise you might not be able to join.

I do not expect a lot of people to be joining before the expedition starts but it would be helpful to have few moderators in advance (they can give other people expedition member status amongst other things) and I've prepared the role of Expedition leader for Jaiotu (so he'd have almost full control over server).

Feel free to contact me if you need anything set up on server or if you feel something should be changed on it, I usually stalk forums on my mobile all day so I can react to PM's reasonably quickly most often than not (I am gmt+1 mind you), I can even function in very limited way on discord on mobile but I have Windows 10 phone so no app for me and their mobile UI in browser is terrible, I could probably give expedition member status through it but that's all, I can't even textchat, so I would need PM beforehand anyway. It's the first time I am working with Discord so I hope I didn't screw something up in spectacular way .

edit:
If you wanna add to our discord either PM me or stalk the channel, if I see you and you have same nick as in roaster spread sheet, I'll set you up as expedition member right away.

Link to the Discord has been added to the OP. Thanks for taking charge of this!

 

[RatPhink]

I'm in agreement that FD just overlooking SNRs just doesn't make sense. A big part of the market for this game is armature astronomers, and although the in game galaxy might not be perfectly accurate, an enormous amount of energy(money) went into making it possible for us to be able to go visit these places without our inner scientist cringing at the lac of accuracy. SNRs are far from the bottom of the list of places most of us would like to see. Cas A in particular, and not just as a SNR. The neutron star itself has received a lot of attention in the last few years, what with its contribution to the theory of superfluity within Neutron stars, and then the conclusion that its atmosphere contains carbon. I just don't buy it that they wouldn't have considered it a necessary attraction. I'd be more inclined to believe that they would withhold/obscure it on purpose. For what reasons God only knows. FD seems to enjoy putting together puzzles for us to solve, so it wouldn't surprise me if this was the case here.

Also as has been mentioned, why would they be so supportive of this expedition if it was a goose chase?

I have little to contribute as far as possible candidate systems, but I had a thought today. Who all were the professional consultants for the astronomical aspects of the game? If I could get a list of scientists or research teams I could go through their published work and see if anything of interest about Cas A is there.

 

[RatPhink]

With regards to the list of SNR remnants from wikipedia: An interesting side project might be cataloging which SNR actually exist in the game and which appear to be missing. We can use that data to determine if there is a specific pattern that can be used to predict which ones exist and which ones don't. We could at least "reverse engineer" the though process that the developers used when hand-crafting these systems into the game.
"

This I can do! I'll start tonight. I'll make a sheet and track their common SNR name, their in-game system name, current/in-game distance and location ect.

By the way, is there an easy way to compare the In-game location grid to any real world location system? Most bodies I've looked up only give you the Ascension and Declination. I was hoping to record if and how much movement FD simulated in the time that is suppose to have passed.

 

[Jaiotu]

This I can do! I'll start tonight. I'll make a sheet and track their common SNR name, their in-game system name, current/in-game distance and location ect.

By the way, is there an easy way to compare the In-game location grid to any real world location system? Most bodies I've looked up only give you the Ascension and Declination. I was hoping to record if and how much movement FD simulated in the time that is suppose to have passed.

lorrad and Muetdhiver seem to have found a way to translate real world data from the galactic coordinate system to the game's 3d cartesian coordinates. We'll have to put together some kind of tutorial.

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

Woha good luck

Since i have started playing Elite i'm searching for Tycho Brahes supernove remnant but i wasn't able to find it. I'm not sure if it's even implemented in the Elite Galaxy but i will continue searching for it

 

[Jaiotu]

MISSION UPDATE: 24 Oct 3302

Professor Steven Eisler will be heading a delegation to Mars High in the Sol system to petition the Federal Astrocartography Department to release data regarding known supernova remnants in the Milky Way. With any luck he will be granted a meeting with Karl Devene, head of the department and we'll get some positive data that will help us during the expedition.

Let's all wish him luck! Eisler will arrive at Mars High on 28 Oct 3302.

 

[hiciacit]

lorrad and Muetdhiver seem to have found a way to translate real world data from the galactic coordinate system to the game's 3d cartesian coordinates. We'll have to put together some kind of tutorial.

I have a few lines of code lying around to do this. I can share them later if you're interested.

 

[Jaiotu]

I have a few lines of code lying around to do this. I can share them later if you're interested.

Please do!

 

[Masheikh Scytale]

Sorry, totally profane, lay, unholy explorer here. What would be the criteria to decide what star body should be considered as Cas A ? Any black hole/ NS in the supposed neighborhood can do it ?

 

[Jaiotu]

Sorry, totally profane, lay, unholy explorer here. What would be the criteria to decide what star body should be considered as Cas A ? Any black hole/ NS in the supposed neighborhood can do it ?

We will want to catalog every neutron star and black hole that we can find that could reasonably be the potential target. We'll post target coordinates later and expedition members can select which of those coordinates they will search. We'll basically plot a line along the correct path and catalog any neutron stars that fall within about 500Ly of that path, visit those systems and create a gallery.

 

[Masheikh Scytale]

We will want to catalog every neutron star and black hole that we can find that could reasonably be the potential target. We'll post target coordinates later and expedition members can select which of those coordinates they will search. We'll basically plot a line along the correct path and catalog any neutron stars that fall within about 500Ly of that path, visit those systems and create a gallery.

Fine!Very interesting.I'll be there

 

[hiciacit]

Please do!

Here you go (Python code):

import ephem
import math

def eq2ed(ra,dec,r):        # Convert J2000 right ascension, declination, and distance (ly) to ED X,Y,Z
    eq = ephem.Equatorial(ra,dec)
    gal = ephem.Galactic(eq)
    x = r * math.cos(gal.lat) * -math.sin(gal.lon)
    y = r * math.sin(gal.lat)
    z = r * math.cos(gal.lat) * math.cos(gal.lon)
    print('x=%f y=%f z=%f' % (x,y,z))

def ed2eq(x,y,z):        # Convert ED X,Y,Z to J2000 right ascension, declination, and distance (ly)
    r = math.sqrt(x*x+y*y+z*z)
    lat = math.asin(y/r)
    lon = math.atan2(-x,z)
    gal = ephem.Galactic(lon,lat)
    eq = ephem.Equatorial(gal)
    print('ra=%s dec=%s dist=%f' % (eq.ra,eq.dec,r))

Examples of use, converting equatorial to ED:

# Tycho's star
r = 8900
ra = '0:25:22'
dec = '64:09:0'
eq2ed(ra,dec,r)

# Ruchbah
r = 99
ra = '01:25:48.95147'
dec = '60:14:07.0225'
eq2ed(ra,dec,r)

Should give you output:

x=-7697.932948 y=220.861825 z=-4461.283267
x=-78.800386 y=-4.062704 z=-59.791251

Examples of use, converting ED to equatorial:

# Polaris
x = -322.6875
y = 194.59375
z = -212.4375
ed2eq(x,y,z)

# Sagittarius A*
x = 25.21875
y = -20.90625
z = 25899.96875
ed2eq(x,y,z)

Should give you output:

ra=3:47:38.55 dec=89:27:07.7 dist=432.577902
ra=17:45:40.05 dec=-29:00:28.4 dist=25899.989465

I'm using the default J2000 epoch, as that gave the best matches insofar as I've tested it. It matters for the conversion of equatorial to galactic coordinates and vice versa. And oh I just realize, I'm using the Python PyEphem module (based on XEphem http://www.clearskyinstitute.com/xephem/) for that conversion, which means you probably can't just throw this code in any old online Python interpreter, damned. You'd have to install Python+PyPhem. It was quick and convenient to code this way, but maybe it's not so hard to change this part of the code, since it's just a fixed rotation anyway ...

 

[RatPhink]

I only looked up about five last night. I could find two In-game, PSR J0538+2817 in the center of Simeis 147(Spaghetti Nebula), and V1343 AQUILAE at the center of W50(Manatee Nebula). V1343 AQUILAE's primary is a A7V Blue star, SNR is a back hole that shares the system.

I actually found my results so far promising despite only finding two out of five. If FD was just copy and pasting Catalogs why would PSR J0822 and PSR J0837 be there, but PSR J8035 not be? I'm encouraged and feel that putting this list together may help us to see a pattern.

 

[hiciacit]

I only looked up about five last night. I could find two In-game, PSR J0538+2817 in the center of Simeis 147(Spaghetti Nebula), and V1343 AQUILAE at the center of W50(Manatee Nebula). V1343 AQUILAE's primary is a A7V Blue star, SNR is a back hole that shares the system.

I actually found my results so far promising despite only finding two out of five. If FD was just copy and pasting Catalogs why would PSR J0822 and PSR J0837 be there, but PSR J8035 not be? I'm encouraged and feel that putting this list together may help us to see a pattern.

Yep absolutely worth checking them all out and making an overview. Which were the three you couldn't find in game btw? Are you keeping notes somewhere (for us to see [smile])?

 

[lorrad]

This I can do! I'll start tonight. I'll make a sheet and track their common SNR name, their in-game system name, current/in-game distance and location ect.

By the way, is there an easy way to compare the In-game location grid to any real world location system? Most bodies I've looked up only give you the Ascension and Declination. I was hoping to record if and how much movement FD simulated in the time that is suppose to have passed.

There are online converters

Important avoid this one: Cartesian to Spherical coordinates Calculator - High accuracy calculation they've reversed 2 angles and use non-standard signing.

for Ra and Dec to galactic can try

LAMBDA - Coordinate Conversions

Coordinate Transformation and Galactic Extinction Calculator

if you trust those folks at caltech and nasa.

If you need to convert degree min sec to degrees decimal

Degrees,minutes,seconds to decimal degrees converter

which you do to convert galactic coordinates to cartesian x,y,z on galmap with

Coordinate Converter

Galmap is set up with the galactic coordinate system AFIK

and I'll throw in

Unitconverter

for anything extra like kilo parsecs to light years.

Best to start with SIMBAD Astronomical Database

 

[RatPhink]

Here's what I've got so far.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CWdIXMlz2rv2VQMVMrnZcAgog64V-0qZu0kqUinIwdo/edit?usp=sharing

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qjHsFnuMQXV8sv-tbi8birqPAs4Q58YkZGjL55k-yZ8/edit?usp=sharing

I ended up making a separate list for the remnant bodies I could find in-game and those I could not.

I wasn't able to spend much more time on it tonight, so I've only added a few more, mostly to the "Not Found In-Game" list.

I'm relying on Simbad for my list of alternative identifiers. If I put a Star on the "not in-game" list it's either because I couldn't find a specific designation or catalog number for it,(IE it hasn't been discovered yet, or is so obscure as to elude my googling skills) or I entered every ID designation Simbad had into the Gal Map and came up empty handed.

I'm going to bed, but tomorrow Ill work out how to get the Gal coordinates using the tools lorrad posted and add those to the lists.