The Difference Between PvP and "Griefing"

[GreyAreaUK]

Wahey! We've got an open Vs solo Vs Pg Vs PvP Vs PvE Vs Star citizen thread now!

House!

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

Came here looking for Eagles but found the Boyz of Summer instead

 

[popuptoaster]

so you are now accusing NPC's of griefing as well then?

You comment is wrong on some many counts!

Where do you draw the line of consent then? By playing the game? By playing in Open? By signing the Doesn't Exist form to consent to PvP on a per occurrence basis? Why is the same logic not applied to NPCs?

Hey, I just pirated a guy, and now I don't want to be engaged in combat, can you tell the NPCs and the player bounty hunters to stop griefing me .-.?

#StopNPCGriefingToday

*Chuckles in the background*

NPCs are NOT PLAYERS, as i said, clue is in the name, if you want to shoot another player and he wants to engage with you then that is PVP, if he doesn't, then you are griefing him.

I did not anywhere address the issue of what a non consenting player would be doing in open, but even then being in open isn't automatic consent, you dont consent to being robbed every time you walk down the street despite you knowing it is a possibility.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

NPCs are NOT PLAYERS, as i said, clue is in the name, if you want to shoot another player and he wants to engage with you then that is PVP, if he doesn't, then you are griefing attacking him.

Fixed.

 

[Wasp0]

NPCs are NOT PLAYERS, as i said, clue is in the name, if you want to shoot another player and he wants to engage with you then that is PVP, if he doesn't, then you are griefing him.

I did not anywhere address the issue of what a non consenting player would be doing in open, but even then being in open isn't automatic consent, you dont consent to being robbed every time you walk down the street despite you knowing it is a possibility.

If you can't reply to a thread on this forum, without having to call people idiots, then i suggest you re-acquaint yourself with the forum rules me ole hearty! you have a different opinion to many people, does not mean they are Idiots.

Take a chill pill or stop insulting people or maybe both?

Now Fly safe sir!

 

[ALGOMATIC]

NPCs are NOT PLAYERS, as i said, clue is in the name, if you want to shoot another player and he wants to engage with you then that is PVP, if he doesn't, then you are griefing him.

I did not anywhere address the issue of what a non consenting player would be doing in open, but even then being in open isn't automatic consent, you dont consent to being robbed every time you walk down the street despite you knowing it is a possibility.

Yes you consent by clicking open. Fdev confirmed that YOU CAN KILL ANYONE ANYWHERE, game rules, sorry to disappoint.

I dont need anyone's consent but Fdev's for shooting other players. Dont like it? Play solo.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Somethings missing here....

This thread seems to be taking a beating from the mods. Wouldn't it be simpler to close it?

It's basically just Hotel California now. Lol

 

[UmbraRex]

When you win, it's PvP.
When you lose the guy griefed ya

Ummmmm, as a non PvPer No.

When I lose, it's PvP. If I never had a chance (anything vs a newbie or deliberately outclassing your target), it's still PvP but borders on griefing. If it happens again. and again, and again in a deliberate attempt to ruin my enjoyment of the game that's harassment, and is griefing.

edit: and yes, I know I can block someone doing that to me or move to group or solo. Which apparently is what's been happening and PvPers have fewer and fewer targets cause they have run everyone off?

 

[Powderpanic]

Somethings missing here....

This thread seems to be taking a beating from the mods. Wouldn't it be simpler to close it?

It's basically just Hotel California now. Lol

Seeing as most of the issues of the game amount to the same ongoing QQ's, shouldn't they just close down this whole forum to anything but Asps in front of things or praising FDEV for super Immersion! Anything else just throw it into that blackhole of a thread.

 

[Cmdr. Jägermeister]

Seeing as clicking on OPEN PVP mode clearly isnt working. We need more protection from bad feels!

Can FDEV add in a couple of UI forms?

Firstly a consensual PVP screen that pulls both players out of the interdiction and sits them down in front of a short powerpoint presentation ( you cannot exit from this via logging or cable pulling, because it is added into the TOS for the game ), explaining all the options that could happen next.
At this point both players consent to a PVP interaction and they are both thrown back with a count down timer so that no one is surprised or caught of guard!

If one of the players doesn't consent. Before being returned to the game, both players are required to watch a short presentation of role player reasons for the now "Non-Consensual PVP activity". The player who instigated the interdiction, is given a chance to chose a roleplay reason and then a short video about ingame lore around the roleplayer is shown to the non consenting player. This way even if he doesnt consent, he knows the reason for the other players PVP and through education will learn that infact griefing doesnt exist.

Now I know this might put a little additional time into your day to day PVP but we need to protect the community from bad feelings and through better in game information, together we can end the crys of Griefing and move forward TOGETHER for a brighter less toxic community!

Sounds great to me. Please FDev, implement that ASAP!

 

[Lateralus]

The complaints have been steady since well before release, it's not something that built up over time. You can either accept other people approach the game differently and can make their own choices or you can't, if you can't your doomed to an eternity of being miffed.



That's because Star Citizen isn't a game, it's just a load of wild aspirations and marketing on top of a tech demo which has repeatedly been altered over time to attract as many people as possible. If they ever actually finalize anything some people will lose it simply because of the huge variety of things they've sold it as. You remember that kid who threatened to go to NMS's office with a rifle after it got delayed by a few weeks, that's nothing compared to what will happen with SC. People have spent tens of thousands on it and it looks like it's already failed.

I'm not going to get into a fanboy argument, I was merely explaining the differences in dev approach between the two games. SC is very much a wait and see thing.. I've only spent £35 on it so [FONT=&quot]¯\_(ツ)_/¯ [/FONT]

 

[Stigbob]

I'm not going to get into a fanboy argument, I was merely explaining the differences in dev approach between the two games. SC is very much a wait and see thing.. I've only spent £35 on it so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Your money mate do what you like with it, none of my business really. Fanboy doesn't really fit, "like's space games, and wants more high quality ones" is more accurate.

I won't buy in until (or unless) they make some solid progress, what I've seen so far isn't worth any money. I was more impressed by the one X4 demo I've seen than the last 6 years of SC gubbins (answer the call 2014).

 

[StevieG]

All PVPers should go into private mode and leave open for us nice friendly helpful CMDRs who dont feel the need to kill everyone.

Lets make Open great again!

 

[Zambrick]

The only problem is. Those traders are involved in the same end result people with weapons are. Traders should susceptible to the same risks if they are working for their faction. Otherwise, No point. I can go into solo and private and win the war just the same as we can now. Which is a major flaw.

It is a flaw to be sure, but I dont think its a major one. Seeing as how you can do the exact same thing. The only way those traders would have been stopped is by combat. Otherwise nothing would stop them. Which is fine, because some people do not want to do PVP. At most if you are paying attention to the power play screen you can tell within the first 20 minutes if someone is trading against your faction at a specific station. Its not enough of a advantage to really account for anything in my opinion. There is an entire week to retaliate/reply to trading in the BGS. It should be plenty of time.

 

[Zambrick]

Defenses are never useless. If people get killed in their greedy loadout it is none of my problem or FDev problem because with a proper loadout matching a cutthroat galaxy context : You can't get destroyed in this game.
There are some traders at CG in Open that are impossible to gank (i tried) because they are using a smart loadout. Yes you loose Cr/hour but you are safe from the rebuy screen.
Like you said : "Not all ships in the game are combat oriented ships". And yet people still assume they can fight with trade/explo ship. No you can't fight but you can survive with proper defences and run away really easy.

Then I see you have never been jumped in a T-9 or tradeaconda with the ever so preferred FDL with the top of the line ganking package installed. I am really starting to wonder if you actually do trade or if you have ever actually played in open.

There is literally only 2 trading ships that can escape if jumped by a single FDL or my favorite wing of FDLs. Those are a stripped down inefficient T-7 with dirty drive boost and the Cutter. You can build up any of the rest of the trading vessels until they are flying tanks. It doesnt matter. because none of them have the fire power to stop an attacker.

You will either be hit instantly by one or more FSD disrupting missiles after your first boost. If you arent then they attack your shields and take out your engine with either PAs at close range, Rails at long, or Multi cannons with corrosive rounds. In this time maybe 5-10 seconds have passed you might have been lucky and could have boosted again. After your engines are dead they just fly until their nose is pointed at your power plant and 12 seconds or less later you are dead. You think a ganker will just hull kill a ship? You must have been interdicted by some crappy gankers. If done right every single ship, with the acceptation of the Cutter and Corvette, that isnt or cant be 100% fit for combat will die within 30 seconds.

Calling traders "greedy" will not help your case either. Makes you sound like you have some sort of animosity toward them. We all know you consider them greedy, but they are just using the ships they are given. You can fit every defensive measure devised by FDEV on a T-9 and you will end up with a ship the size of a small office building that can carry less cargo than a standard earth semi tractor trailer. Whats the point of having a trade ship when you have to fill the entire trade ship up with defenses? Design issue by FDEV creeps up again. Be it for lacking the ability to hire NPCs or players as body guards. Down to the fact that the standardized modular design somehow applies to all ships of vastly different utility and price points. (The only standard Modules that every ship should have in common are Life support and FSDs. Everything else should be different and specific to the role of the ship.)

FDEVs incessant stupid choice of making all combat oriented around module damage is the problem. You might have one build you consider superior as far as survivability is concerned, but that is all. I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that someone can counter anything you attempt to do protect your ship. The two most expensive ships in the game are the best and safest trade ships you can own. Thats FDEVs screw up.

They made non combat ships flying space cows with no teeth and that was a FDEVs design decision not mine.

 

[Zambrick]

Anything and everything else not effecting player groups or powerplay.

Once again, if people left Open and joined a group like Mobius for PVE content only. Then they shouldnt be able to effect others through PVE content.

When the game first started, Powerplay and Player factions did not exist. And it was not an issue at that time.

Now that we have those things. People can attack Player factions ships and fight over territory using the BGS with no risk to them. But they left Open so they couldnt be effected or "griefed". But they have no problems effecting others and claiming its PVE content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3jCC13prXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnYXTh4TCVo <~ THIS PROVES THE WHOLE POINT. Hes PVEing with intent to effect another player faction. End of story. Its PVP by proxy.

But its the bigger picture. Its why Powerplay is in the dumps. And the reason we dont have "meaningful pvp". We either have 1v1's or traders crying because they got shot at.

That would be nothing then. As everything effects the BGS. Absolutely every single activity that makes you money effects the BGS. I think that is what he stating.

 

[Zambrick]

No, its not grand. Its a time vs time battle. If it was grand. People wouldnt be complaining about powerplay.

And Hotel california thread wouldnt exist in the first place.

You each have a week and its not a race. Once someone gets to the finish line. In powerplay if you lose a system to the opposition, its generally because nobody has paid attention to that system for more than a week. Other than your opposition that is. There is plenty of time to counter everything if you are diligent. Open or Solo, it does not matter for BGS manipulation. When the game started there wasnt PP or Player Factions. So your real beef should be with FDEVs handling of those 2 things. Not for the fact that people like to trade things to make money in Solo.

 

[Zambrick]

When you win, it's PvP.
When you lose the guy griefed ya

What did you win? Money? Shoes? Box of Kittens? Candy? a shiny new hat?

Thats the point. There is nothing to win. Since there is nothing to win people know that when you blow them up it was for no reason. If you cant understand that simple concept, then that is a deep seeded personal problem of your own making. Good luck living your life with your head in the sand.

Not yet

That will never be.

 

[PeLucheuh]

Then I see you have never been jumped in a T-9 or tradeaconda with the ever so preferred FDL with the top of the line ganking package installed. I am really starting to wonder if you actually do trade or if you have ever actually played in open.

There is literally only 2 trading ships that can escape if jumped by a single FDL or my favorite wing of FDLs. Those are a stripped down inefficient T-7 with dirty drive boost and the Cutter. You can build up any of the rest of the trading vessels until they are flying tanks. It doesnt matter. because none of them have the fire power to stop an attacker.

You will either be hit instantly by one or more FSD disrupting missiles after your first boost. If you arent then they attack your shields and take out your engine with either PAs at close range, Rails at long, or Multi cannons with corrosive rounds. In this time maybe 5-10 seconds have passed you might have been lucky and could have boosted again. After your engines are dead they just fly until their nose is pointed at your power plant and 12 seconds or less later you are dead. You think a ganker will just hull kill a ship? You must have been interdicted by some crappy gankers. If done right every single ship, with the acceptation of the Cutter and Corvette, that isnt or cant be 100% fit for combat will die within 30 seconds.

Calling traders "greedy" will not help your case either. Makes you sound like you have some sort of animosity toward them. We all know you consider them greedy, but they are just using the ships they are given. You can fit every defensive measure devised by FDEV on a T-9 and you will end up with a ship the size of a small office building that can carry less cargo than a standard earth semi tractor trailer. Whats the point of having a trade ship when you have to fill the entire trade ship up with defenses? Design issue by FDEV creeps up again. Be it for lacking the ability to hire NPCs or players as body guards. Down to the fact that the standardized modular design somehow applies to all ships of vastly different utility and price points. (The only standard Modules that every ship should have in common are Life support and FSDs. Everything else should be different and specific to the role of the ship.)

FDEVs incessant stupid choice of making all combat oriented around module damage is the problem. You might have one build you consider superior as far as survivability is concerned, but that is all. I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that someone can counter anything you attempt to do protect your ship. The two most expensive ships in the game are the best and safest trade ships you can own. Thats FDEVs screw up.

They made non combat ships flying space cows with no teeth and that was a FDEVs design decision not mine.

You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

I am a top tier PvPer. I know how to make an effective loadout and how to gank. You moslty can't be ganked in a trade ship using an apropriate loadout for a cutthroat galaxy (and you loose only 1 module slot of cargo but you are safe from rebuy screen).
I don't even know why you talk about dirty drives on a trade ship. Maybe for boosting in a straight line and be easy to hit ?
I suggest you watch Rinzlers video about how to trade in Open.

Anyway it seems like you want to fight back in a trade ship and compete against a combat ship... really ???

The only design issue is, and i agree with you on this point, that Cutter and Corvette are better trading ships than the best designated trading ship.

 

[sb413197]

What did you win? Money? Shoes? Box of Kittens? Candy? a shiny new hat?

Thats the point. There is nothing to win. Since there is nothing to win people know that when you blow them up it was for no reason. If you cant understand that simple concept, then that is a deep seeded personal problem of your own making. Good luck living your life with your head in the sand.


That will never be.

A lot of PVP games don't actually give you anything when you win. You just feel happy about having won that particular battle.

To a lot of people, given the superb control and combat modeling in this game, Elite is primarily a space shooter with a few other things thrown in, and the primary purpose is to blow up other ships (either computer, player, or both) and when achieve that you are succeeding. To others it's something totally different - a space adventure fantasy; or a social game; or BGS manipulation; or exploration.

I personally respect all modes of play, yes even the full time murder hobos, because the game is open and that's how they see the game. It's not the same way I see it but that's fine.