The dynamic universe and background simulation leaves something to be desired

[ollobrains]

To be fair, the background simulation is still gathering momentum. It can only evolve to events.

i think if we keep pushing it as a major request for enhancement the devs will follow suit. listening to players and meeting their requirements in some way indicates what players want and we want a greater narraitvie to keep up our interest. if they meet it we will keep eovlovng and pushing it

 

[Damot]

I think you're right and suspect a lot of NPC routines are placeholders for more sophisticated routines coming later. It is a hugely complex game. Limit Theory is developing from another direction so it will be ahead on ED in some regards, and behind on others.

The whole game feels like a "placeholder".

 

[ollobrains]

The whole game feels like a "placeholder".

It is currently, they have indicated an intention to slowly turn things on and make the simulatin deeper

 

[BigBadB]

In all honesty, even if the game weren't based on peer-to-peer networking, I have serious doubts that the kind of persistent NPCs some posters seem to want would be practical.

I'm not sure how many inhabited star systems there are right now, but I have heard 100,000. Even if there were only 25 NPC ships per system on average (a rather low number, given the total population of the game world and the fact that the largest cargo ships can only carry 500t at once), to handle them all persistently would mean that the server would have to be running a 2.5 million AIs simultaneously.

You'd need incredibly powerful (and expensive) servers to handle that, and even then I'm not convinced it would be technically possible. I'm not aware on any persistent world online game that even tries something like this.

 

[Nikita]

I completely agree with the OP. Also nice job writing all that down. But yeah, the players do not seem to have any sort of meanigful or even perceivable impact on the world. This is the part of the game that is the most disappointing to me. I sincerely hope that this is going to change in the future.

 

[ollobrains]

they use virtual servers, so the amount of processing power scales up depending on how many players and how many solar systems are active. there is probably a short cut that they have , u can hunt npcs across multiple solar systems with scanners so there must be some form of trick code that allows things to happen

 

[bassman]

^^ Sadly this pretty much sums it up at the moment.


You should read the design discussion archives that were pitched during the kickstater.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=36

It'll make you weep seeing the vision and depth that was touted in there and then comparing it to what we got.

But, its still early days. We're due a content patch soon... lets see what FD deliver.

Indeed, thing is that while its true that the DDF isnt a binding contract and noone expected everything in there to be in on initial release, I have a big problem with the priorities that FD have so far displayed - most of the effort seem to have gone into the "bling" aspects of the game i.e. lots of ships modules weapons, the full sized galaxy basically all the things that look good on marketing material and at the expense of all the more subtle and deep aspects of the game such as persistent NPCs and a joined up reactive background simulation.

Thing is when you look at games that achieve classic status, remembered as ground breaking and influential, and develop huge cult followings over long periods of time, they are generally the ones that are deep rather than flashy, the ones that under promise and over deliver - the exact opposite of the way ED is currently going.

Its all the more surprising to me that FD are doing this because they are an independent developer who are supposedly using kickstart to be free of all the usual corporate and marketing pressures, they are supposed to a bunch of developers writing a game for other geeks. A scenario that should be producing a game with depth as a priority.

 

[bassman]

I'm not sure how many inhabited star systems there are right now, but I have heard 100,000. Even if there were only 25 NPC ships per system on average (a rather low number, given the total population of the game world and the fact that the largest cargo ships can only carry 500t at once), to handle them all persistently would mean that the server would have to be running a 2.5 million AIs simultaneously.

You'd need incredibly powerful (and expensive) servers to handle that, and even then I'm not convinced it would be technically possible. I'm not aware on any persistent world online game that even tries something like this.

I disagree, I dont think adding strategic behaviour and state even for very large numbers of persistent NPCs needs vast amounts of computing resources.

First off the state of each NPC wont require much storage space - a couple of Kb should be plenty to remember each NPCs profession, loadout, faction, basic personal and motivation attributes, recent interaction with players etc, so were looking at maybe 7-10 megabytes total for several million NPCs.

Second the moment-by-moment tactical AI for any NPCs that players are interacting with in supercruise or normal space is already being handled by the game. The only extra bit needed is for each NPC to have some simple strategic purpose (where its going and whats its basic goals are etc) and for that to be evaluated using some simple rules to trigger some appropriate action by the NPC such as jumping to next system on its trade route or dropping to station/resource/navpoint. Not a lot of extra processing over and above whats already happening will be needed.

NPCs that are not visible to any players anywhere will only need a strategic action computation to roughly simulate where they are and where they are headed. Such an NPCs strategic state would only need updating say once a minute.

I cant see this requiring much more than a single moderately powered server.

 

[BigBadB]

I disagree, I dont think adding strategic behaviour and state even for very large numbers of persistent NPCs needs vast amounts of computing resources.

First off the state of each NPC wont require much storage space - a couple of Kb should be plenty to remember each NPCs profession, loadout, faction, basic personal and motivation attributes, recent interaction with players etc, so were looking at maybe 7-10 megabytes total for several million NPCs.

Second the moment-by-moment tactical AI for any NPCs that players are interacting with in supercruise or normal space is already being handled by the game. The only extra bit needed is for each NPC to have some simple strategic purpose (where its going and whats its basic goals are etc) and for that to be evaluated using some simple rules to trigger some appropriate action by the NPC such as jumping to next system on its trade route or dropping to station/resource/navpoint. Not a lot of extra processing over and above whats already happening will be needed.

NPCs that are not visible to any players anywhere will only need a strategic action computation to roughly simulate where they are and where they are headed. Such an NPCs strategic state would only need updating say once a minute.

I cant see this requiring much more than a single moderately powered server.

I would humbly suggest that if this were the case, not only would ED be doing it, but so would most other persistent world multiplayer games. Yet as I said, I am unaware of any major ones that have even tried to have fully persistent NPCs in this fashion.

 

[PIXEL]

Allegedly the universe evolves over time in terms of prices, factions etc etc

Quick question:
If one buys all the tea in one system and sells it to another system during solo play (or anything else that is supposed to make a difference) does it affect the online version and vice versa?

 

[fergal]

The important thing I'm here to tell you is that you need to stop looking under the hood if you want to enjoy this or any other game. Its become common place among gamers to dissect the inner workings and functionality of games, discover the illusions and complain about it. Your ruining your own experience. Stop analyzing and let the illusion trick you.

I like looking under the hood, I want to see an engine in there. Thats what will convince me of a real galaxy, even if I know that its all smoke and mirrors.

Cargo scanning NPCs really shows the lazyness. If I'm in a system with rock bottom superconductor prices, there should be some NPC trade ships leaving with them. Maybe not all, but this is what would be profitable. I know all the npcs are just spawned for my benefit, and I know they aren't actually going anywhere, if I'm not in the system with them they don't continue on travelling on a server somewhere, but while I see them I expect some sort of logical behavior.

If they have illegal goods, they shouldn't dock at a station with no black market.
If the station exports biowaste, they shouldn't bring biowaste to it.

Where are the busted up NPCs returning from a lucky escape. All of them have 100% hulls.

Where are the smuggler npcs that can actually enter a station undetected. I like that there are npcs getting hosed down while docking, but its too often.

These little things add up to making the game world believable or not.

 

[BigBadB]

Quick question:
If one buys all the tea in one system and sells it to another system during solo play (or anything else that is supposed to make a difference) does it affect the online version and vice versa?

Yes. We all play in the same world, regardless of what mode we play in.

 

[fergal]

Quick question:
If one buys all the tea in one system and sells it to another system during solo play (or anything else that is supposed to make a difference) does it affect the online version and vice versa?

yes, they are all online, sharing the same trade data.

This is one of the issues with trying to blockage a system. You can't just kill every trade ship and see prices change, because (well first of all killing npc traders doesn't seem to do anything) you don't actually see every trade ship. You don't see players and their npcs from solo games, private groups or other sessions in open.

 

[PIXEL]

yes, they are all online, sharing the same trade data.

This is one of the issues with trying to blockage a system. You can't just kill every trade ship and see prices change, because (well first of all killing npc traders doesn't seem to do anything) you don't actually see every trade ship. You don't see players and their npcs from solo games, private groups or other sessions in open.

thanks chaps - that's cleared that up ...
A real can of worms this cause and effect thing (-:

 

[SAB380]

This thread makes me sad.

 

[fergal]

thanks chaps - that's cleared that up ...
A real can of worms this cause and effect thing (-:

Well just imagine that you are in a parallel galaxy without other players but there is a temporal doorway between all commodity prices so they are identical through the multiverse.

 

[Damot]

It is currently, they have indicated an intention to slowly turn things on and make the simulatin deeper

I'm sure buyers of the game are pleased they bought such a placeholder. Seriously, the more and more I look at ED the less and less I am impressed. I'm so close to uninstalling and returning in 6 months to see if things have vastly improved. For me that's a shame, I have waited so long for this game.

 

[mdlman]

o handle them all persistently would mean that the server would have to be running a 2.5 million AIs simultaneously.

You'd need incredibly powerful (and expensive) servers to handle that,

Nope. We throw the AI term around a lot, but none of this really is AI. The NPCs aren't learning over time and adapting. The complexity for machine learning is in the feedback (learning) and persistence (memory).

What we have presently seems scripted with a few branch points. What was described and you're replying to is a slightly broader script, generated at spawn based on faction stats and drives, with some branch points. Weighted decision making for sure, but still nothing like machine learning. That makes it pretty cheap, computationally. Implementation takes man-hours, though.

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

Well just imagine that you are in a parallel galaxy without other players but there is a temporal doorway between all commodity prices so they are identical through the multiverse.

The alternate realities/instancing is another thing that really leaves a sour taste in my mouth. So far, the game is all smoke but no mirrors, and it makes the tricks very unconvincing.

 

[aowqyaaw]

The alternate realities/instancing is another thing that really leaves a sour taste in my mouth. So far, the game is all smoke but no mirrors, and it makes the tricks very unconvincing.

Damning.

I fear there's a lot of truth in that.