The dynamic universe and background simulation leaves something to be desired

[ollobrains]

It really wouldn't keep me happy if they just arbitrarily decide to make something happen at times. I mean, that's kind of what they're currently doing with wars and other conflicts. It just gives me no reason to participate in any of them because the result comes not from the player actions, or the NPC actions. Borrowing your example, an uninhabited system won't get developed as a natural result of the player killing pirates to the point where a faction a.i decides to move into the now easy and safe system. And a strong faction with lots of ships and money, with a high demand of industrial goods to support its fleet (unfortunately, resources like that don't even exist, seemingly) that neighbors a ridiculously awesome system filled with all sorts of stuff (like 12 inhabitable worlds or something else stupidly good) that isn't claimed by anyone apart from a few dozen pirates, won't decide to claim the easy pickings for themselves.

It just feels so lame when it's all clear that it will probably be some random bloke at Frontier noticing that there is some player activity in an uninhabited system, and will just spawn a station there and call it a day.

What they should do is declare a list of inner core systems that are under the control the game master - devs. Say major alliance imperial and fed systems considered core and have those as storyline controlled, outside of that allow a slow manual expansion of fringe systems that get a lot of player attention to reward groups. New colonies etc. Not major but pick so many per week. and look to automated the outer rim first make it that it takes time and effort and a lot of missions etc to get expansion going. But make it possible in some way. also allow population and economicflucutations based on famine and war and prosperity as well. Do it say over the next 6 months as they develop the background sim, balance things etc. But theres a lto of empty space, and if there is say a certain amount of player effort required to tip it that way u wont see a massive expansion but a slow and steady outward pull ( some systems could fail and become husks if that is also on the cards - contraction ) but make it responsive theyd probably sell much more than star citien that way. Might evn kill off eve online if they get it right

 

[Shovy365]

Well its a slight rant. Once you are out exploring I would think you wouldn't run into many NPC pirates. They can't possibly get many customers out there to make it worth their time.
Do you ever see NPC ships with scanners on them out there? Or fuel scoops?

To be honest i have no idea how the NPC ships in this area are fitted (other than the fact that every single one has a bloody interdictor in there somehwere), and i've seen nothing that comes even close to resembling any sort of "intelligent" behaviour. There's 3 types of NPC's i've seen here. Those that just sit in front of the star doing nothing, those that aimlessly fly around a system without actualy going anywhere, just going to random spots nowhere near planets and such, and those that head straight for an astronomical object (usualy a high value planet or moon) and plummet into it full speed and face first. All of them have 2 things in common in this region of space. All of them appear miraculously out of thin air a few seconds after jumping into the system, and every single one of them tries to interdict the second you're spotted, hence my post about it.

 

[ollobrains]

at least there is some interactin with the placeholders. Im sure they will develop more AI scrips as time develops, but we do need to keep asking for it.

 

[Shovy365]

at least there is some interactin with the placeholders. Im sure they will develop more AI scrips as time develops, but we do need to keep asking for it.

I'm sorry but i can't and absolutely refuse to call these squares on my radar "AI" with actual "scripts" when they only seem to have 2 lines of code for each ship with 4 variations. "Stand perfectly still", "interdict everything", "roam around aimlessly" and "plummet face first into every planet and moon you see".

 

[fergal]

This here, shows some of the disconnect.

Harvest port (major war going on with the onionhead, not a random system noone at FD has looked at) says it exports Imperial Slaves.

But they import them. Is this because someone bought them all up and it dynamically changed? I don't know, I don't think it is. I'm sure everyone know this isn't a rare find, many systems report untrue things like this.

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

This here, shows some of the disconnect.

Harvest port (major war going on with the onionhead, not a random system noone at FD has looked at) says it exports Imperial Slaves.

But they import them. Is this because someone bought them all up and it dynamically changed? I don't know, I don't think it is. I'm sure everyone know this isn't a rare find, many systems report untrue things like this.

Reminds me of when I went to a system that was the headquarters of "Kraken Shield Specialists," and was apparently famous for producing high quality shields.

And when I dock there, they have practically no shields.

 

[thewzdoc]

Additionally, miner NPCs appear to be broken. I witnessed two different mining teams (a lone Asp, and a Type 6 with two sidewinder escorts) do some pretend mining (no chunks of rock ever appeared, but the ships pretended to scoop them anyway)... and then all four ships flew away together, parked a few hundred meters from the rocks, and sat there.

For an hour.

I had a few mining ships that would fly to the edge of the belt, aim into open space, and start mining nothing....they would fire over and over again into the void.

I had a Pirate Anaconda that was being attacked by security ships so I engaged. Another Anaconda appeared, I assumed it was a police ship too but it just sat there in th emiddle of the furball. Once the Pirate was dispatched and I had my 140,000CR reward I scanned the other Anaconda. It was wanted too! It was only at 80,000CR but every security ship just flew off. I decided to follow him around and see what he would do. He would attack miners, turn and scan me, then fly in random patterns. I then followed him out of the roids and and didn't want him to get away so I started firing on him. He just ignored me and continued to fly a straight line as I brough his shields down. Didn't boost just kept plodding along. He finally engaged his FSD and jumped out with a lot of damage...

The NPC's a re a head scratcher....

I've also had times at a RES where I attack a Pirate and all his buddies turn red and atack me...that's fun....that's what I expect.

 

[medwyn]

The deeper we go to the rabbit hole I feel the need of joining and do some tests ingame.
But if I start testing I'll loose the gameplay itself - the main reason I decided not to buy myself into the alpha/beta phase.
So I keep playing however I need to look the other way hard not to recognize that ED more likely needs beta testers rather than serious players.
This bread needs further baking.

 

[WalterHWhite]

Eloquently put OP, I think you raise a valid concern but have to disagree with part of it.

- Fine, an NPC posse per player seems a bit dated
- NPC do daft things that can be sorted
- Trading could be more in depth

The part I disagree with:

Thinking that NPC's should have their own lives that affect the universe, that you can follow and observe at will. That'd be a huge waste of computational resources considering that almost all of the time, it simply wouldn't be visible to anyone and therefore 'would not matter'. Much simpler to have a non-visual NPC influence element.

Sure, flicking an internal switch to say 'this NPC is being watched, do something intelligent and sensical' can be done, but then you'd be tied back into the idea that they're all visible and intelligent/sensical/authentic. If the NPC jumped to a station and docked, dropping cargo or buying/selling something would have to be tied back to the idea of all the visible NPC's doing tangible things to the universe (unless you can live with it just being pseudo-cargo). It's an all or nothing thing.

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

Eloquently put OP, I think you raise a valid concern but have to disagree with part of it.

- Fine, an NPC posse per player seems a bit dated
- NPC do daft things that can be sorted
- Trading could be more in depth

The part I disagree with:

Thinking that NPC's should have their own lives that affect the universe, that you can follow and observe at will. That'd be a huge waste of computational resources considering that almost all of the time, it simply wouldn't be visible to anyone and therefore 'would not matter'. Much simpler to have a non-visual NPC influence element.

Sure, flicking an internal switch to say 'this NPC is being watched, do something intelligent and sensical' can be done, but then you'd be tied back into the idea that they're all visible and intelligent/sensical/authentic. If the NPC jumped to a station and docked, dropping cargo or buying/selling something would have to be tied back to the idea of all the visible NPC's doing tangible things to the universe (unless you can live with it just being pseudo-cargo). It's an all or nothing thing.

There's varying degrees of managing all the NPC's that do their own thing. X3 and Limit Theory manage to do what I'm asking for. What programming wizardry they're doing to make it convincing, I don't know, but ED should strive to provide a similar experience.

 

[Max Steele]

There's varying degrees of managing all the NPC's that do their own thing. X3 and Limit Theory manage to do what I'm asking for. What programming wizardry they're doing to make it convincing, I don't know, but ED should strive to provide a similar experience.

Let's not fool ourselves here. Yes, X3 does manage all NPCs, both while you're in the system and when you're not. However, there are approximately 200 systems in the X3 universe for the game to keep track of. There are two levels of simulation with X3. When you are in a system, it's a very detailed sim, with keeping track of ships in real-time, putting the assets into physical space where they need to be, navigating hazards like stations, other ships, and asteroids. The rest of the systems are simulated, but those ships don't have to follow rules like object collisions. That's why it's always safer to have your AI-controlled ships dock at a station when you're not in the system.

Elite: Dangerous has over 1000 inhabited systems. And at any point in time, every system could have one person in it, which would be the equivalent of X3 simulating all of its systems in the detailed mode. Something that X3 just can't do. You cannot compare the scope of Elite: Dangerous with the scope of X3 in regards to the simulation.

And let's not mention Limit Theory. That game doesn't exist yet. No one outside of the single developer has ever played it, so we don't know what's actually going on in that game.

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

Let's not fool ourselves here. Yes, X3 does manage all NPCs, both while you're in the system and when you're not. However, there are approximately 200 systems in the X3 universe for the game to keep track of. There are two levels of simulation with X3. When you are in a system, it's a very detailed sim, with keeping track of ships in real-time, putting the assets into physical space where they need to be, navigating hazards like stations, other ships, and asteroids. The rest of the systems are simulated, but those ships don't have to follow rules like object collisions. That's why it's always safer to have your AI-controlled ships dock at a station when you're not in the system.

Elite: Dangerous has over 1000 inhabited systems. And at any point in time, every system could have one person in it, which would be the equivalent of X3 simulating all of its systems in the detailed mode. Something that X3 just can't do. You cannot compare the scope of Elite: Dangerous with the scope of X3 in regards to the simulation.

And let's not mention Limit Theory. That game doesn't exist yet. No one outside of the single developer has ever played it, so we don't know what's actually going on in that game.

Then at the very least simulate the factions, similar to a strategy game, with their own finite resources and autonomy. Perhaps managing individual NPCs is unfeasible, but at the very least, managing the factions with abstract representations of its populace, pilots etc, should be possible.

 

[medwyn]

Let's not fool ourselves here. Yes, X3 does manage all NPCs, both while you're in the system and when you're not. However, there are approximately 200 systems in the X3 universe for the game to keep track of. There are two levels of simulation with X3. When you are in a system, it's a very detailed sim, with keeping track of ships in real-time, putting the assets into physical space where they need to be, navigating hazards like stations, other ships, and asteroids. The rest of the systems are simulated, but those ships don't have to follow rules like object collisions. That's why it's always safer to have your AI-controlled ships dock at a station when you're not in the system.

Elite: Dangerous has over 1000 inhabited systems. And at any point in time, every system could have one person in it, which would be the equivalent of X3 simulating all of its systems in the detailed mode. Something that X3 just can't do. You cannot compare the scope of Elite: Dangerous with the scope of X3 in regards to the simulation.

And let's not mention Limit Theory. That game doesn't exist yet. No one outside of the single developer has ever played it, so we don't know what's actually going on in that game.

Yes, 1000 inhabited system instead of a good 200. That's where people can say: the less could have been more.
I was amazed to hear that the whole Milky Way would be modelled and what I see is pretty much amazing. It's kind of a revolutionary move to model the galaxy in this scale of size and accuracy.
Game technically so far it looks like a gun firing backwards. The width has no density and the big numbers are only self-repeating patterns which means it does not matter which point of this galaxy you are in: you'll always find the same pattern in 30-40 ly distance.
The question is: was that really a meaningful decision to break records in width WITHOUT getting the core rock solid? It seems this is where ED is bleeding right now.
X3 is somewhat different - it wasn't aiming the infinite in real size but made me believe that the fairly limited universe is infinite. Because it felt like that due to the density they created within that playground.
I guess it's still not too late. I would totally agree if FD had an idea to start building up a core with high density and widen that out when it's ready and bullet proof. I know they would have hot and cold thrown at them by the mob but that's a move which can be proved as the best very easily in the near future.

 

[Pekka]

ED was released at least a few months too early. They're now adding stuff in patches that should have been there on release day. That just seems to be the way the video game industry works these days.

Given enough time, I'm sure things will get a lot better.

 

[Tar Stone]

Been following this for days, you guys are doing some phenomenal work here.

If any of you guys don't have beta accounts, I hope you get them.

 

[SlugwormX]

Something that should be mentioned regarding X3 - although there were only a limited number of systems, the number of Stations was much higher (so I don't know if the entity count for stations between E and X3 is significantly different, when including relevant details such as the time between each release). Also the stations performed specific tasks and complexes performed multiple tasks where resources in meant products out. Each ship carried resources (although e-cells were a bit of a panacea) the overall economy sort of worked. Any failing in the economy left a gap which the player could analyse and fill.

A second point is that X3 was released over 9 years ago. CPU and server power have come a long way since then.

So to recap (bar some irregularities in the actual manufacture of X3's goods -e cells, I'm looking at you - and the magically appearing replacement ships that didn't soak resources) X3 had a persistent system of traders, warfighters, pirates etc that you could track from A-B-C that carried goods that were manufactured here and loss of those goods actually hurt production at the station that requisitioned them, all running on a PC from 9 years ago... Try telling me that a system like this couldn't have been evolved as a template for E's economy and provided a better simulation than what we have at the moment. I won't mention what happened after X:3 though, other than - Biggest - Mistake - EVER!

I would trade in E but I can't force myself to imagine that I am actually achieving anything that supports the station and improves it dynamically (take any out of the way station that doesn't see much traffic - in any normal simulation the profits would go down, workers would leave and the station would close up shop - dynamically - as realistically any pilot would choose the easier, shorter route to make profits), fighting is meaningless when enemies are mere spawn fodder, exploration is point-drive-wait...rinse-repeat. Not to mention what they've done to the fight AI...good lord in Beta I would not consider taking on an Anaconda but now - kill engines, then kill ship - in an Eagle?!?! I don't think I've come close to death yet, about the nearest I've come to Dangerous was when I was on the phone and got too close to a sun. Elite: Dangerous my tuccus, as someone else has stated Elite: Daycare!

Needless to say, I am like many others that wanted, and were sold, something more (e.g. the dynamic living universe) and got a lovely looking postcard in its place. I have faith that the team has the skills to carry out this vision and would like to think that market pressures etc caused the premature release and they are furiously developing the vision that was sold to us. My concern is that they will pull an Egosoft and that the initial surge of players are disillusioned by the lack of depth, missing features, bugs and will leave never to be seen again.

Sometimes too soon is just too soon... Back to lurking... LURK, Lurk, lurk, lur....

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

Looks like the whole Onionhead event was resolved in the Federation's favor. I wonder how much the players influenced that, and how much of it was just scripted from day one.

 

[LordBad]

I like looking under the hood, I want to see an engine in there. Thats what will convince me of a real galaxy, even if I know that its all smoke and mirrors.

Cargo scanning NPCs really shows the lazyness. If I'm in a system with rock bottom superconductor prices, there should be some NPC trade ships leaving with them. Maybe not all, but this is what would be profitable. I know all the npcs are just spawned for my benefit, and I know they aren't actually going anywhere, if I'm not in the system with them they don't continue on travelling on a server somewhere, but while I see them I expect some sort of logical behavior.

If they have illegal goods, they shouldn't dock at a station with no black market.
If the station exports biowaste, they shouldn't bring biowaste to it.

Where are the busted up NPCs returning from a lucky escape. All of them have 100% hulls.

Where are the smuggler npcs that can actually enter a station undetected. I like that there are npcs getting hosed down while docking, but its too often.

These little things add up to making the game world believable or not.

Im not sure what to tell you other than to repeat the obvious, your looking for realism in an illusion.

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

Im not sure what to tell you other than to repeat the obvious, your looking for realism in an illusion.

We're looking for complicated gameplay in a game that promised such. The simulation is laughably basic and does not match what Frontier described.

 

[FreeeLancer]

I've just read the entire thread, and it echoes some of my own disappointments with the game. I don't have anything meaningful to add to the topic at hand, but I've read several times in this thread technical concerns about adding some meat on background faction/NPC simulation, and I had to comment.

OP mentioned several Paradox Interactive titles. These are games that are notorious for their background simulation detail.. the kind of grand strategy game you need a manual to read the manual. Here's a cheat screenshot of one of the NPC's in Crusader Kings 2, one of Paradox's latest games:


You may think this is a wealth of information available on the pop-up, but this character also has a ton of other information assigned to it, like various statuses, birth date, special relationships with other NPC's, prestige, money, claims and titles and many other parameters. This particular game lasted less then 2 centuries or roughly 7 generations and is so far tracing over 600.000 NPC's. The entire game can span 30 generations (each adding a massive number of NPC's to track). I doubt that you can imagine the amount of background stuff being calculated every second (I certainly can't). So it is quite possible to have a very deep background simulation that can work on your average PC, let alone a dedicated server.
In-depth simulation shouldn't be much of an issue as far as system resources are concerned, and it shouldn't be much of an issue bandwidth wise.. However, while Paradox has smaller development teams, most of their crews consist solely of coders/programmers with decades of experience using the same engine, programming languages, tools and scripts, and most of their games are built on previous titles.


tl;dr: Living, breeding and meaningful background simulation is quite possible and achievable, but to get there from where ED currently is would IMHO require a massive amount expertise and familiarity with required tools and game engine (not to mention man hours).