The dynamic universe and background simulation leaves something to be desired

[BigBadB]

What we have presently seems scripted with a few branch points. What was described and you're replying to is a slightly broader script, generated at spawn based on faction stats and drives, with some branch points. Weighted decision making for sure, but still nothing like machine learning. That makes it pretty cheap, computationally. Implementation takes man-hours, though.

Okay, I think we're talking about two different things. Having the current, non-persistent NPCs be more relevant to the location (for example, if the system supplies Gold and demands Grain, having any NPC merchants that are spawned have a higher chance to have one of those goods in their holds) is one thing, and I completely agree that FD can and should work on this.

Having the entire NPC economy fully simulated in-game by persistent NPC ships is quite another.

My apologies if I misunderstood what some posters seem to be asking for/expecting.

 

[Lobstris]

Whilst I agree with the OP's sentiment, I think we're going to have to accept that, a) in a galaxy this large, using the p2p instancing system, there will always be a large degree of 'smoke and mirrors' for the vast majority of NPCs, and b) it may be a long while before it gets any better. Will anyone still be around playing by then?

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

Whilst I agree with the OP's sentiment, I think we're going to have to accept that, a) in a galaxy this large, using the p2p instancing system, there will always be a large degree of 'smoke and mirrors' for the vast majority of NPCs, and b) it may be a long while before it gets any better. Will anyone still be around playing by then?

I doubt I'll be playing until massive improvements for the dynamic universe, npcs, etc are in place. But if they actually do it, I would happily come back. Though, if they continue to pursue their current method, where nothing the player does has logical or significant effects, then I don't think even the flashiest of features could keep me playing for long.

 

[BigBadB]

I doubt I'll be playing until massive improvements for the dynamic universe, npcs, etc are in place. But if they actually do it, I would happily come back. Though, if they continue to pursue their current method, where nothing the player does has logical or significant effects, then I don't think even the flashiest of features could keep me playing for long.

Genuinely curious here - what effects would you like to see?

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

Genuinely curious here - what effects would you like to see?

Mostly what I laid in in my OP, where NPCs have their own agendas and integral role to fulfill in the world. Traders actually trade, miners actually mine, bounty hunters actually bounty hunt, pirates that are after cargo and they all do it for their own objectives of, presumably, making money. Currently, NPC's don't do that. They pretend to do that, and furthermore, there is no actual quantity of how many NPCs they are. They are spawned endlessly and randomly.

Traders will fly around aimlessly, not selling anything, miners will blast rocks and collect nothing, bounty hunters will attack those with bounties and not collect said bounty, and pirates don't actually give a damn about the cargo. This means that players killing traders, miners, bounty hunters, or pirates, has no effect, because in 30 seconds, it will randomly spawn another group of NPCs, some of them with the same names of the NPC you just killed, and since they weren't doing anything regarding the economy, you achieved nothing by killing the traders/whatever. Furthermore, factions have no agenda of their own, either. They do not make alliances with each other, they do not invade one another independently, they don't make decisions or take any action whatsoever. In short, factions have no A.I whatsoever. They're not autonomous or capable of doing anything.

Contrast this with games like X3, Limit Theory etc. Their NPCs and factions are completely autonomous and dynamically shape the universe in unpredictable and interesting ways. And as a result, the player can have curious, significant, and interesting effects. Either intentionally, or by unintentional domino effects. Limit Theory is an infinitely procedurally generated universe as well. Wars between factions develop in exciting ways, with pivotal points in the conflict.

Wars in Elite are meaningless. They're just arbitrary conflict zones with two infinitely spawned opposing mobs grinding until the end of time. There are no resources that they're even fighting for.

For interesting effects and a dynamic universe, factions, npcs, etc, need:
- Resources
- Autonomy
- Agendas
- The ability for the player to either aid or hinder the faction

So basically, a faction would need resources, so it sends its limited amount of mining ships to collect said resources. This breeds conflict with another faction who was already mining those resources, they fight, the first faction runs out of ships and money and is destroyed. Or something to that effect. Players could have potentially helped the first faction more and helped it win.

I want effects like that. It's what a sandbox game should endeavor to deliver. Right now, the effects that our actions have on the gameworld are on the same level as grinding mobs in WoW.

 

[BigBadB]

This means that players killing traders, miners, bounty hunters, or pirates, has no effect, because in 30 seconds, it will randomly spawn another group of NPCs, some of them with the same names of the NPC you just killed, and since they weren't doing anything regarding the economy, you achieved nothing by killing the traders/whatever. Furthermore, factions have no agenda of their own, either. They do not make alliances with each other, they do not invade one another independently, they don't make decisions or take any action whatsoever. In short, factions have no A.I whatsoever. They're not autonomous or capable of doing anything.

With all due respect, unless you have some kind of inside connection to the devs, I can't see how you can say any of that with any degree of certainty.

All the things you're saying have no effect or don't exist could well be affecting the background sim and changing the game world. Personally, I have no idea and no way to effectively judge just yet.

Which does lead to one of the concerns I do have about the current setup - that I fear that it may be too opaque and hard for players to see the impact we (as a group) are having on the game world. There's very little feedback other than Galnet, Influence levels and some of the 'system events' (like economic booms, civil wars, etc). For all I know killing pirates in a system may be weakening that pirate faction, affecting the chances for pirate NPCs to spawn in the system (and whether they're wimpy pirates or strong ones), the NPC economy model and all kinds of things that the background sim may be tracking, but we simply don't know. Any effect a single player has is going to be very small at best, and with so little feedback it's hard to tell whether something is actually changing or it's just one's imagination.

Unfortunately, I fear that this may be inherent to the 'separation' between the players and the game world that's part and parcel of the way ED has been set up - much of which, as I understand it, due to practical concerns that led to the networking approach the game uses.

Factions are certainly supposed to have their own agendas, as they should be affecting the missions the faction offers (can't remember where I saw this right now, but am almost certain I saw a dev post about it).

Contrast this with games like X3, Limit Theory etc. Their NPCs and factions are completely autonomous and dynamically shape the universe in unpredictable and interesting ways. And as a result, the player can have curious, significant, and interesting effects. Either intentionally, or by unintentional domino effects. Limit Theory is an infinitely procedurally generated universe as well. Wars between factions develop in exciting ways, with pivotal points in the conflict.

X3 is a single player game, so I'm not sure it's a fair comparison. I'm afraid I know next to nothing about Limit Theory other than it exists, they have some very pretty screenshots, and the game makes heavy use of procedural generation. Is there a publicly available version yet? Is it a multiplayer game?

Wars in Elite are meaningless. They're just arbitrary conflict zones with two infinitely spawned opposing mobs grinding until the end of time. There are no resources that they're even fighting for.

Again, I'm not sure that's the case. The actual conflict zones are just one stage of the process, and I don't think I have enough experience or data to be able to speak about them with any certainty.

But I think that, like almost everything else in ED, the way the game has been designed does tend to rely on players involving themselves and creating their own stories. This is a very 'old school' approach, and one that's definitely not going to be to everyone's tastes.

For interesting effects and a dynamic universe, factions, npcs, etc, need:
- Resources
- Autonomy
- Agendas
- The ability for the player to either aid or hinder the faction

So basically, a faction would need resources, so it sends its limited amount of mining ships to collect said resources. This breeds conflict with another faction who was already mining those resources, they fight, the first faction runs out of ships and money and is destroyed. Or something to that effect. Players could have potentially helped the first faction more and helped it win.

I want effects like that. It's what a sandbox game should endeavor to deliver. Right now, the effects that our actions have on the gameworld are on the same level as grinding mobs in WoW.

I agree with your list of what's needed, although 'resources' doesn't have to mean actual minerals mined from asteroids - it could mean any source of income.

Once more, though, I can't really say with any degree of certainty how much of this stuff is already in the background sim. I am pretty certain that FD intend this stuff to be in there, so even if it's not at the moment I'm confident it will be expanded as development continues.

However, as mentioned above, I think this is one of the big problems the game faces - we just can't tell (yet, and possibly ever). I think it's definitely a major issue for players who want a more 'direct' interaction with the game world and a more player-focussed approach.

 

[SE-Apocalypse]

In all honesty, even if the game weren't based on peer-to-peer networking, I have serious doubts that the kind of persistent NPCs some posters seem to want would be practical.

I'm not sure how many inhabited star systems there are right now, but I have heard 100,000. Even if there were only 25 NPC ships per system on average (a rather low number, given the total population of the game world and the fact that the largest cargo ships can only carry 500t at once), to handle them all persistently would mean that the server would have to be running a 2.5 million AIs simultaneously.

You'd need incredibly powerful (and expensive) servers to handle that, and even then I'm not convinced it would be technically possible. I'm not aware on any persistent world online game that even tries something like this.

2.5 million agents are 'trivial' IF you have a server cluster similar to eve-online. It becomes non-trivial if you want to run them locally or on the toaster of your server admin. You do not need to simulate every step in the 2.5 million AIs life, you just let them interact in the background simulation, give them some trivial agenda like "support the values of LT 3447", "Trade", "RUN from Combat", etc and you are done. It will be for sure quite a large data-base for all the persistent npc's. After that you spawn them just like yo do right now, but based on their last position and let them travel based on their agendas from station to station. The part that is running for the background sim does not need to be fancy, the issue is that the system becomes incredible hard to predict how it will react once you leave the system to itself, that is really the hard part about it. If you galaxy is falling apart constantly because the chaotic nature of your npcs it for sure not fun for the players. So I guess at least partly it was a design decision and partly it was a budget and time consideration. The design documents had a real nice conception for persistent npcs that should have worked just fine, even when a lot less detailed than really simulation millions of agents in a truly dynamic galaxy.

 

[SE-Apocalypse]

Okay, I think we're talking about two different things. Having the current, non-persistent NPCs be more relevant to the location (for example, if the system supplies Gold and demands Grain, having any NPC merchants that are spawned have a higher chance to have one of those goods in their holds) is one thing, and I completely agree that FD can and should work on this.

Having the entire NPC economy fully simulated in-game by persistent NPC ships is quite another.

My apologies if I misunderstood what some posters seem to be asking for/expecting.

It would be absurd to simulate all NPCs when players would never have the chance to actually meet even all players trading in a system. But at least SOME would be nice, just like the design documents suggested. I was so happy about it when I read them, my own nemesis system just like in Shadow of Mordor, instead I get mmo style spawning mobs with no nothing at all, not even equipment, cargo or outfits which would make sense. I get a bunch of placeholders. Once the paint is off there is nothing below the surface of elite. Just 400,000,000,000 beautiful stars. Nothing else.

 

[ollobrains]

As far as NPCs the design document had 3 tiers. tier 1 was the faction related leaders ( like the medical officer placeholders in some factions) and factin leaders that give missions etc.
Tier 2 would be npcs with their own agenda and simulated within each system. They would be given AI be involved in missions ( bounty missions but that isnt fully developed)
Tier 3 would be youre less intellgient static script spawn ones, that if u interacted with i na certain way would be givne a place.

Again it looks like we have a skeleton, with organs and muscles and skin to be added later. Id like to hear from the devs about a slow implementation of the more complex parts of the simulator over time once they have the bugs worked out on the bare bones

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

As far as NPCs the design document had 3 tiers. tier 1 was the faction related leaders ( like the medical officer placeholders in some factions) and factin leaders that give missions etc.
Tier 2 would be npcs with their own agenda and simulated within each system. They would be given AI be involved in missions ( bounty missions but that isnt fully developed)
Tier 3 would be youre less intellgient static script spawn ones, that if u interacted with i na certain way would be givne a place.

Again it looks like we have a skeleton, with organs and muscles and skin to be added later. Id like to hear from the devs about a slow implementation of the more complex parts of the simulator over time once they have the bugs worked out on the bare bones

Yeah, I remember the tier system. Something like that would be a big step in the right direction. If we could have confirmation that features like that are still in the roadmap to be implemented, and haven't been scrapped entirely, or if they decided to replace it with a more complex system that is currently being worked on, then that would be a major relief. The primary cause of anxiety on this issue is that they may simply have no plans to add the meat to the bone in this very important (but not as flashy and more subtle) gameplay element.

 

[ollobrains]

Yeah, I remember the tier system. Something like that would be a big step in the right direction. If we could have confirmation that features like that are still in the roadmap to be implemented, and haven't been scrapped entirely, or if they decided to replace it with a more complex system that is currently being worked on, then that would be a major relief. The primary cause of anxiety on this issue is that they may simply have no plans to add the meat to the bone in this very important (but not as flashy and more subtle) gameplay element.

No confirmation unfornatley, all micheal brookes has said is they are going to expand it over some unspecificed timeframe, theres a major update in missions next month about 14th of feb planned. Minor factions will generate a lot more thats a starting point to allowing influence change in systems to go both ways.

 

[fergal]

No confirmation unfornatley, all micheal brookes has said is they are going to expand it over some unspecificed timeframe, theres a major update in missions next month about 14th of feb planned. Minor factions will generate a lot more thats a starting point to allowing influence change in systems to go both ways.

Well its good to hear an update to the missions is planned, bit disappointing its 2 months after release though.
The "wings" update was talked about being out early this year, might be the same update?

Wings should basically make multiplayer against npcs easier (its still a bit vague as to dealing with enemy players) so there certainly needs to be some better missions that allow meaningful co-op, let alone upgrading the missions in general.

 

[ollobrains]

i think if we come up with new ideas, push the limit, they may even add some things that werent though of. They seem to respond that way, im sure well see limttle tweaks and new things in coming weeks ( capital ships were a recent addition)

 

[Shovy365]

Reading Spaceboots's post about this actualy cleared up alot of "weird" things i've noticed about NPC's in this game. I mostly do exploration so naturaly that involves alot of jumping in and out of human controlled space in order to cash in my data, but here's what i've noticed about NPC's that i've met in either anarchy systems wihin human controlled space or that pseudo-border space past human controlled space where NPC's seem to be mucking about. Basicaly what i'm seeing every time i jump through that pseudo-border is that NPC's in that region just appear out of thin air. You'd think that in a "dynamic universe" the NPC's would be more naturaly spread out and doing different things, yet every time i jump to a system in that region a random number of NPC's will appear out of thin air around the star based on how far that system is from human space and what goodies lie in that system ie earth worlds, water worlds etc.

And another thing that's been bugging me is WHY IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS HOLY does every single god damn NPC you see outside of human space or in anarchy systems have a frikking interdictor? And more to the point WHY IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS HOLY does every single NPC outside of human space or anarchy systems instantly does a 180 the second you jump into the system and tries to interdict you? And no, i am not exagerating to make my point. Either i'm just stupidly unlucky or this is how the game is actualy set up. Regardless of where i jump be it outside of human space or anarchy systems within i instantly become a target for every single NPC in the system and bam, they all try and interdict me. I've had more than one (way more) encounters with them in these types of system where i'd be interdicted every 30 seconds until i left the system. Countless encounters with NPC's where when exploring i'd catch up to an one that was heading to a star some 200k ls away and the second he pops up on my radar he does a 180 and heads straight for me.

I seriously dont get how exactly are these NPC ship fit? Do they all fit interdictors because .... YOU that's why? Do they not live by the same fitting rules we do and somehow can fit every module in existance on a sidewinder because ... magics? Seriously someone please explain this to me. Dont get me wrong here, the main reason i'm complaining about this is not because every NPC i come by actualy manages to interdict me succesfuly, this hasnt happened in over a week unless i voluntarily give in. But more because being interdicted every 30 seconds is a royal giant pain the a**. I jump into an anarchy system i havent explored and i get interdicted before the scanner finishes charging. I get interdicted again before i can even manage to scan the star in my face. I get interdicted AGAIN seconds after i scan the star and start fuel scooping (if scoopable). Again, please note that by getting "interdicted" i mean "attempted interdiction". These NPC's arent challenging in any way shape or form, it just feels like they're placed in these systems to you off and make your life in these systems a living hell.

And with that my rant is done, feel free to treat it as one, i wont blame you. If you could also provide a possible explanation for this NPC jackassery that would be even better.

 

[fergal]

And with that my rant is done, feel free to treat it as one, i wont blame you. If you could also provide a possible explanation for this NPC jackassery that would be even better.

Well its a slight rant. Once you are out exploring I would think you wouldn't run into many NPC pirates. They can't possibly get many customers out there to make it worth their time.
Do you ever see NPC ships with scanners on them out there? Or fuel scoops?

 

[ollobrains]

i have a question, if i pick a quite empty npc system close to settlement, does my kiling of npcs in said system make it a more likley candidate for expansion of a settled system into the emtpy system nearby. Do any of the indexes ie economic, SOL, development, security apply to empty virgin systems. Would killing 2000 npc pirates in a quite system next to a outpost planet encourage the next door neighbour to go oh the pirate nest next door has been cleared, we can send traders, settlers an dconstruction crews into this virgin but safeish system.

Dunno if thats even part of the simulation but its worht testing.

 

[fergal]

i have a question, if i pick a quite empty npc system close to settlement, does my kiling of npcs in said system make it a more likley candidate for expansion of a settled system into the emtpy system nearby. Do any of the indexes ie economic, SOL, development, security apply to empty virgin systems. Would killing 2000 npc pirates in a quite system next to a outpost planet encourage the next door neighbour to go oh the pirate nest next door has been cleared, we can send traders, settlers an dconstruction crews into this virgin but safeish system.

Dunno if thats even part of the simulation but its worht testing.

Do you mean a system without a station?
Michael Brooks has said that there is no automated expansion.
Stations also wont upgrade on their own, this requires an employee to change a database entry.

Each system has a security rating, would be interesting if you could go an kill all the pirates to upgrade its security, I wouldn't think its possible.
Or kill all the security ships to downgrade its security. Would be good if there was actually x number of police ships in a system, and until more are purchased you don't see them anymore.

It look like everything in the systems is static. The planets can't be destroyed, stations can't be destroyed. Stations can't be upgraded / down graded, economy type of stations can't change.

Prices of goods in stations can change. Which faction runs a station should be changeable, but we are told there are 2 bugs right now that might be actually stopping that. Whichever faction own the "main" station in a system is the faction that runs the system, so it should be possible to change a system from federation controlled to imperial controlled, if there is an imperial faction in that system.

 

[ollobrains]

Do you mean a system without a station?
Michael Brooks has said that there is no automated expansion.
Stations also wont upgrade on their own, this requires an employee to change a database entry.

Each system has a security rating, would be interesting if you could go an kill all the pirates to upgrade its security, I wouldn't think its possible.
Or kill all the security ships to downgrade its security. Would be good if there was actually x number of police ships in a system, and until more are purchased you don't see them anymore.

It look like everything in the systems is static. The planets can't be destroyed, stations can't be destroyed. Stations can't be upgraded / down graded, economy type of stations can't change.

Prices of goods in stations can change. Which faction runs a station should be changeable, but we are told there are 2 bugs right now that might be actually stopping that. Whichever faction own the "main" station in a system is the faction that runs the system, so it should be possible to change a system from federation controlled to imperial controlled, if there is an imperial faction in that system.

To keep players happy the devs might pick a system at random thats busy and upgrade it, or add a faction expanding into a nearby virgin system ( could even be a galnet thing)

The security rating is a bckground thing and i do think its active.

Running some experiements in the last week, more npc traffic in a system ive been trading into heavily. Volumes both supply and demand have risen, which means the wealth- Standard of living , economic indictors are changing _ economic boom is active.

As per the mikunn and lugh experiements, it possible to flip station control through civil war ( check CSG and the LFE- fed aligned). We are yet to see a system change hands but the crimson dragons in lugh are very clsoe they are up to their last station and 70%. IF that works then yes we will see the first system to change hands. Thats indepdant priate taking over fed - imp to fed we are yet to see probably because everyone would turn up. But an outer system done quitely might work

 

[fergal]

To keep players happy the devs might pick a system at random thats busy and upgrade it, or add a faction expanding into a nearby virgin system ( could even be a galnet thing)

Some stations have been upgraded by the devs, but done manually, there should be some sort of population, wealth factor that makes it happen automatically. There is also this station type that was in newletters a while ago that has engines and would appear as the first sign of civilization in what was an empty system. Looks like thats all driven by a person.

The security rating is a bckground thing and i do think its active.

Running some experiements in the last week, more npc traffic in a system ive been trading into heavily. Volumes both supply and demand have risen, which means the wealth- Standard of living , economic indictors are changing _ economic boom is active.

As per the mikunn and lugh experiements, it possible to flip station control through civil war ( check CSG and the LFE- fed aligned). We are yet to see a system change hands but the crimson dragons in lugh are very clsoe they are up to their last station and 70%. IF that works then yes we will see the first system to change hands. Thats indepdant priate taking over fed - imp to fed we are yet to see probably because everyone would turn up. But an outer system done quitely might work

If galnet reported a fed-imp take over people might intervene, but right now galnet isn't automatted except for the number of ships in the system for the last 24 hours.

The other problem is spreading a faction to another system, if there isn't an imperial faction in a system, you can't get the empire (or whoever) to take it over.

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

To keep players happy the devs might pick a system at random thats busy and upgrade it, or add a faction expanding into a nearby virgin system ( could even be a galnet thing)

The security rating is a bckground thing and i do think its active.

Running some experiements in the last week, more npc traffic in a system ive been trading into heavily. Volumes both supply and demand have risen, which means the wealth- Standard of living , economic indictors are changing _ economic boom is active.

As per the mikunn and lugh experiements, it possible to flip station control through civil war ( check CSG and the LFE- fed aligned). We are yet to see a system change hands but the crimson dragons in lugh are very clsoe they are up to their last station and 70%. IF that works then yes we will see the first system to change hands. Thats indepdant priate taking over fed - imp to fed we are yet to see probably because everyone would turn up. But an outer system done quitely might work

It really wouldn't keep me happy if they just arbitrarily decide to make something happen at times. I mean, that's kind of what they're currently doing with wars and other conflicts. It just gives me no reason to participate in any of them because the result comes not from the player actions, or the NPC actions. Borrowing your example, an uninhabited system won't get developed as a natural result of the player killing pirates to the point where a faction a.i decides to move into the now easy and safe system. And a strong faction with lots of ships and money, with a high demand of industrial goods to support its fleet (unfortunately, resources like that don't even exist, seemingly) that neighbors a ridiculously awesome system filled with all sorts of stuff (like 12 inhabitable worlds or something else stupidly good) that isn't claimed by anyone apart from a few dozen pirates, won't decide to claim the easy pickings for themselves.

It just feels so lame when it's all clear that it will probably be some random bloke at Frontier noticing that there is some player activity in an uninhabited system, and will just spawn a station there and call it a day.