The frustration in suit and weapon upgrade and customization

[Vedmo]

Just picked it up as well. I have an agriculture job that doesn't afford me much extra time from spring to fall, so pretty much just play this game during the winter, so had to set it down prior to Odyssey release and just got back to it.

I am very inept at the fps stuff, like I have failed to zap someone while crouching behind them as they stood still on more than one occasion, so for me that part of the game was not much of a draw, but after doing some CZs I've slightly improved and will stick with it for a while. I have been enjoying doing the stealth stuff with no shooting and scavenging where I can just blow up all the bad guys with missiles before landing.

I'm not a fan of the UI, especially for shipyard, but suspect that might be one of those things I'll just get used to before long and it won't be a big deal.

Sometimes the graphic changes make things look better, but more often than not I think stuff looks worse than Horizons. I know nothing about graphics though, so can't really comment on that past it looks good or bad.

The engineering/upgrading system will keep me engaged for some time I'm sure, and maybe at the end I'll realize I just upgraded a bunch of stuff to make it easier to do things I no longer want to do, but for now it is fun, so I'm glad I bought it.

Oh, and the system map alone was damn near worth the purchase!

 

[TrashPlayer]

I suggest the same

Yeah, I did. I'm going back to EDH for a while.

 

[ZEPHCRON]

Suits need one more slot and you should be able to remove the engineering goofs you've made.

 

[TrashPlayer]

Took them out in two shots with my G3 Executioner (no mods), took all but 3 seconds.

The problem is that you're using a G3 wep. While you can purchase a G3, it is a one time deal. You can't buy multiple G3 Executioner at the same station at the same time. The only consistent way to get it is through engineering, i.e. using multiple materials to upgrade the weapon. I did try G3 weapon and it is fun and powerful, but that not the problem. The problem is that the G1 wep you can consistently get with credits are really under powered in a TL4 (the TTK is absurdly long IMO, it is like over 5 sec), and the way to get higher grade are either collect materials and upgrade it, or buy it if your lucky. Since the chance of buying one is random, this make the engineering mandatory to progress TL4 content which I deem "normal game play difficulty".

 

[TrashPlayer]

suits (or weapons) cannot due to their small size

suit I can agree but not weps. Now in real life we have modular guns around and you tell me in 3307 we step backward to days that we still use iron sights?

 

[gooddoc]

suit I can agree but not weps. Now in real life we have modular guns around and you tell me in 3307 we step backward to days that we still use iron sights?

But we're not in 'real life' cmdr, we're playing a fantasy game centered in the 34th Century.
A game developed for us to 'enjoy' by basically stringing along & stretching out particular game play mechanics..............you know, to keep us playing!

Wouldn't be much fun if we were done upgrading & modding in twenty minutes, now would it?

That's how games work, that's how Frontier work.......their game, their rules, simple as that!

 

[Ryox]

If FPS games had to be realistic we should not be able to run backward while jumping. Also our soldier would be tripping on the ground and breaking their ankles all the time ...

 

[Deleted member 182079]

The problem is that you're using a G3 wep. While you can purchase a G3, it is a one time deal. You can't buy multiple G3 Executioner at the same station at the same time. The only consistent way to get it is through engineering, i.e. using multiple materials to upgrade the weapon. I did try G3 weapon and it is fun and powerful, but that not the problem. The problem is that the G1 wep you can consistently get with credits are really under powered in a TL4 (the TTK is absurdly long IMO, it is like over 5 sec), and the way to get higher grade are either collect materials and upgrade it, or buy it if your lucky. Since the chance of buying one is random, this make the engineering mandatory to progress TL4 content which I deem "normal game play difficulty".

Well, I'm the last person to defend/cheer about the EDO engineering design (I think it's the worst parts of Horizons engineering dialed up to 11, which is why I largely ignore it), and I've already stated that the shopping route isn't exactly riveting gameplay either - it's a workaround that I imagine FDev implemented after the fact when they saw the complaints about the grindiness of engineering of suits/weapons (it wasn't a feature initially at launch iirc).

It's also unfortunate that FDev's idea of challenge is the use of arbitrary repetition, bullet sponges and simple damage output (by enemies). This has been a thing from the beginning and I don't think it's going to change. So what I'm saying is shopping around for G2/G3 gear is your best option if you want to avoid the worst tediousness of it. Even G2 is very manageable. You find that gear quite easily if you stay away from high player traffic areas, and you will only have to find it once. Whenever I dock at a backwater post I always check the shop for pre-engineered gear, although I now have a selection that works for me, so anything I find now (with mods added is more rare) is a bonus. I haven't gone out and dedicated hours on station hopping either, but it did take a while to gather things. Like pretty much everything in this game I'm afraid.

I will say though that your use of 'mandatory' isn't really appropriate - I could win a High CZ on-foot with G1 gear most likely (I haven't tried because I find the amount of ammo required with G3 gear already way too high to defeat a single NPC (I play with kinetic/laser combinations mostly, don't find plasma all that inspiring due to the small clip sizes and slow shot speeds - the constant weapon switch/reload is wearing thin on me quite quickly), the AI is bullet-spongey and dish out higher damage, but it is still extremely dumb; you just have to play more carefully and use cover more often.

It'll just take longer and I won't earn as many credits as I would with better gear. A bit like defeating a Thargoid Interceptor with a Cobra 3. It's very much possible, and I've done it before, but it's less drawn out and risky to do it in a more capable ship.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Think about it.

You buy a basic ship and add individual modules to improve it's performance characteristics. These modules can then be engineered with modifications to tweak performance .

You buy a suit (or weapon) and upgrade it, which improves several of its performance characteristics (such as shield strength, battery capacity etc). Engineering modifications can further be added to tweak performance.

So, in my view, upgrading a suit (or weapon) is the equivalent of adding modules to a ship. The main difference is that suits and weapons cannot have the changes removed and something else in its place. In my mind I see it as ships being able to be modular, whilst suits (or weapons) cannot due to their small size.

Hand held weapons can be viewed as modules, like those ship weapons added to hard points. A CMDR can be considered to have only one hardpoint, but a number of different weapons and grenades can be cycled in and out of the hardpoint as required. A CMDR only has one pair of hands.

I am content* with the permanent nature of suit and weapon modifications. I try and carefully consider the need to add a modification before applying it.

* Meaning I am not going to lobby/be vocal about changing the permanence of modifications. If it happens, it happens and I will live with it and use if needed.

Steve 07.

The way EDO handles mods both functionally and visually (as represented on the weapon/suit, or rather, not) is pretty weak though.

A good example is the scope one. I once managed to score a pre-engineered laser SMG with scope already included. I couldn't for the life of me figure out what the difference was between a regular laser SMG (which seemed to already have some scope/sight as default, as most other weapons). Until I came across a thread here on the forum where someone shared an image of both:

Same weapon visuals (as in scope/sight model didn't change), the only difference was an increased zoom factor of the entire screen (including the weapon model). That's not how scopes work but ok. It's just really lazy, MVP-level design and I'd be embarrassed if I was the designer responsible for this 'feature' in the game.

Other games did these things 15 years ago, I don't see why EDO can't in 2021.

 

[ZEPHCRON]

Different mods seem to enhance the suit and weapons while others are just lipstick on a pig.
I am learning to use the original design and adapt it for the way you use it.
On the first maverick suit I got lucky and it functioned rather well. But the Dominator I messed up by wasting a slot on tool battery enhancement.

 

[TrashPlayer]

I'm lazy today so let me reply in one post.

But we're not in 'real life' cmdr, we're playing a fantasy game centered in the 34th Century.

I won't call it a fantasy game but a futuristic game, and am I wrong in expecting things will get better in 34th century then in 21st? If I'm the wrong one, please stuff some lore in here to make it complete, i.e. explain why.

Wouldn't be much fun if we were done upgrading & modding in twenty minutes, now would it?

I would agree that there will not be much fun if I can fully deck out a suit/wep in twenty minutes. However, there are things FD can do to balance it. For say, tie them (mods/upgrades/whatever) with the ranks (or something like reputation)? Or may be create a new kind of credits that only can earn by mercenary jobs (thinking something like Continental Coin in John Wick) and spend in the shop? There are possibilities.

If FPS games had to be realistic we should not be able to run backward while jumping. Also our soldier would be tripping on the ground and breaking their ankles all the time ...

That's why I play EFT with friends time to time.

I could win a High CZ on-foot with G1 gear most likely (I haven't tried because I find the amount of ammo required with G3 gear already way too high to defeat a single NPC

I didn't say wining high CZ with G1 is impossible. It just takes time and maybe a sweaty hand. And you already said, ammo required to kill a single NPC with G3 is already too much. That can translate to TTK being too high or DPM being too low which can be caused by weak stats. Hence, this is why I say, engineering mandatory.

Other games did these things 15 years ago, I don't see why EDO can't in 2021.

Doing 15 yrs ago doesn't mean right or acceptable in 2021. You can still do it but it gives the feeling of cheap, and as you said, lazy.

 

[Ryox]

That's why I play EFT with friends time to time.

Thanks for the suggestion, I heard a lot of good things about Escape from Tarkov, I'll definitely take a good look at it.

One thing I can say after playing tens and tens of PvP CZ in Odyssey : the gameplay is more arcade oriented than realistic. But it's not in a bad way. Arcade doesn't mean simplistic, easy or without strategy. In that regard OD is closer to Overwatch and Apex Legends than EFT or Arma probably.

 

[TrashPlayer]

it's a workaround that I imagine FDev implemented after the fact when they saw the complaints about the grindiness of engineering of suits/weapons

Just to add some more. If FD try to workaround the issue by implementing the current design, I can they failed hugely. That's because they skip the step which doesn't require grinding for multiple materials which spawn randomly. Take a look below that I break it down the problem.

--- Situation with Ships
For say one CMDR can make 100mil CR per hour and the goal is to buy an Anaconda (please let me skip Fed and Imp ranks for now). (Assuming ruing Robigo runs)
The cost of base ship is ~150mil CR. This would like ~1.5 hours to reach. (Forget the rebuy for now)
The cost of everything core a rated minus the ship, optional, and weps is ~630mil CR. This would take ~6.3 hours to reach.
Until this point, you're still using CR to buy stuff.
Then comes the engineering, and it is going to be hard to estimate time time needed. For reference, I spent roughly 3 days each day 4-5 hours session to complete a partial G3 Anaconda.

--- Situation with Suit/Weps
Still the CMDR still make 100mil CR per hour and the goal is to own a G5 dominator suit.
The cost of a G1 is 150k CR. If you're lucky, you can grab a G3 which I don't know how much is it because I haven't seen one yet. But I expect it is way less then 100mil CR, so within 1 hour.
And here ends what you can buy with credits. The amount of stuff you can get with CR is surprisingly low.
Then the engineering hits, and god knows how long will it take cuz I went back to EDH.

FD might want to workaround the grindyness of engineering and they might succeeded but they present it in a form too bad to look at. They thought that will lower the difficulty, or it actually lowered the difficulty by math, but humans are not going to percept in this way. If one can't see the difficulty, they will assume it hard/time consuming. At least that's what I feel.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Just to add some more. If FD try to workaround the issue by implementing the current design, I can they failed hugely. That's because they skip the step which doesn't require grinding for multiple materials which spawn randomly. Take a look below that I break it down the problem.

--- Situation with Ships
For say one CMDR can make 100mil CR per hour and the goal is to buy an Anaconda (please let me skip Fed and Imp ranks for now). (Assuming ruing Robigo runs)
The cost of base ship is ~150mil CR. This would like ~1.5 hours to reach. (Forget the rebuy for now)
The cost of everything core a rated minus the ship, optional, and weps is ~630mil CR. This would take ~6.3 hours to reach.
Until this point, you're still using CR to buy stuff.
Then comes the engineering, and it is going to be hard to estimate time time needed. For reference, I spent roughly 3 days each day 4-5 hours session to complete a partial G3 Anaconda.

--- Situation with Suit/Weps
Still the CMDR still make 100mil CR per hour and the goal is to own a G5 dominator suit.
The cost of a G1 is 150k CR. If you're lucky, you can grab a G3 which I don't know how much is it because I haven't seen one yet. But I expect it is way less then 100mil CR, so within 1 hour.
And here ends what you can buy with credits. The amount of stuff you can get with CR is surprisingly low.
Then the engineering hits, and god knows how long will it take cuz I went back to EDH.

FD might want to workaround the grindyness of engineering and they might succeeded but they present it in a form too bad to look at. They thought that will lower the difficulty, or it actually lowered the difficulty by math, but humans are not going to percept in this way. If one can't see the difficulty, they will assume it hard/time consuming. At least that's what I feel.

You'll find we're largely in agreement in principle, I've just (mostly) given up complaining about it here because Frontier felt this is how it should be implemented (not specific to your points, more in general), and it's unlikely to change, at least not fundamentally and neither as we may expect ('be careful what you wish for'). Just been there too many times in the past and Frontier are imo stuck in their ways.

Plus, I don't think they're great game designers at all, though at least the stellar forge and the flight model keep carrying this game and are still the primary reasons why I want to play it despite warts and all. And there are many warts unfortunately - I do my best to ignore them and if it gets too much I play something else instead now, instead of venting about it here. Not meant as advice to you or anyone else, but it keeps me sane and tempers my frustration levels.

 

[Straker]

I'm a firm believer in giving power to the gamer and providing them the opportunity to explore customisations. The lock-in nature of suit and weapon engineering is the true frustration of Odyssey engineering. The simple fact that they had to provide a way to bypass some of this by purchasing pre-upgraded suits and weapons is testament to the fact this system has core design issues in this respect.

I don't have a massive problem with the current material grind because I'm not in a hurry, however I do want the opportunity for my time spent to be worthwhile because I can change my mind on an Odyssey engineering setup.

 

[SteveWW57]

I don't have a massive problem with the current material grind because I'm not in a hurry, however I do want the opportunity for my time spent to be worthwhile because I can change my mind on an Odyssey engineering setup.

The bigger grind is the engineering unlock. Go to Colonia and that issue goes away. Playing and enjoying the game whilst picking materials up along the way will eventually see you with materials sufficient to do something that you want done.

Steve 07.

 

[TScal12]

The way EDO handles mods both functionally and visually (as represented on the weapon/suit, or rather, not) is pretty weak though.

A good example is the scope one. I once managed to score a pre-engineered laser SMG with scope already included. I couldn't for the life of me figure out what the difference was between a regular laser SMG (which seemed to already have some scope/sight as default, as most other weapons). Until I came across a thread here on the forum where someone shared an image of both:

Same weapon visuals (as in scope/sight model didn't change), the only difference was an increased zoom factor of the entire screen (including the weapon model). That's not how scopes work but ok. It's just really lazy, MVP-level design and I'd be embarrassed if I was the designer responsible for this 'feature' in the game.

Other games did these things 15 years ago, I don't see why EDO can't in 2021.

THIS! I was hoping for mod visuals such as physical suppressors on the model , check out the earlier concept art, they seem to have scrapped so much of the update it's such a pity

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/mkiysu

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/mkiysu/odysseys_weapon_engineering_concept_art/

 

[Northpin]

People don't have a problem with things taking time. They have a problem with that time spent not being fun. Look at the hours people throw into games like Counter Strike, LOL or WoW. When the core gameplay is fun it isn't a grind, its fun.

Knocking over a base for the 500th time, or refreshing the mission board, or using Login/Logout at the few places it still works isn't good gameplay. Variety is the spice of life, and feeling forced to repeat the same actions for months on end to progress will remove the fun from any activity.

EDO added 400,000 settlements, you knocking the same settlement for 500th time is... well... a boring choice?
I'm not really a fan of the relogging game, but since you mentioned CS and LOL... isn't that like waiting in the lobby for a new match to start?

I didn't say wining high CZ with G1 is impossible. It just takes time and maybe a sweaty hand. And you already said, ammo required to kill a single NPC with G3 is already too much. That can translate to TTK being too high or DPM being too low which can be caused by weak stats. Hence, this is why I say, engineering mandatory.

You shouldn't really be doing High CZ using G1 stuff, unless you are really pro and want a challenge.
G1 stuff works better in a Low CZ.

G3 stuff is not that rare and can be found with some luck and knowing to search systems that are not visited a lot.
The stock refreshes every Thursday (randomly), but i got 3-4 G3 weapons yesterday so they can be found even on Wednesdays

The simple fact that they had to provide a way to bypass some of this by purchasing pre-upgraded suits and weapons is testament to the fact this system has core design issues in this respect.

I see that as a concession made to the people that dont want to engage in Engineering at all.
At least now they can buy some mid level stuff.

 

[Cmdr Andrew Johnson]

I love Odyssey - for me I have not had any frame rate issues on either machine and they are getting better (hopefully I have not jinxed update 9 lol)
I play around 2 hours every night when family life permits it and it that time I have reached Warrior level (I'm also Triple Elite btw).

I also have :
G5 Dominator Suit:
︎ DAMAGE RESISTANCE
︎ EXTRA AMMO CAPACITY
︎ COMBAT MOVEMENT SPEED
︎ FASTER SHIELD REGEN

G5 Maverick Suit
︎ EXTRA BACKPACK CAPACITY
︎ FASTER SHIELD REGEN
︎ NIGHT VISION
︎ IMPROVED BATTERY CAPACITY

G3 Artemis Suit
︎ INCREASED AIR RESERVES
︎ INCREASED SPRINT DURATION

G5 Executioner
︎ AUDIO MASKING
︎ NOISE SUPPRESSOR
︎ SCOPE
︎ STOWED RELOADING

G5 Intimidator
︎ NOISE SUPPRESSOR
︎ AUDIO MASKING
︎ SCOPE
︎ GREATER RANGE

I do want to get another G5 Intimidator and change the mods - but so far it has been a blast - I can solo High CZ on foot no problem, indeed in the last CG I earned 97M Credits in an high CZ and top 25% with a 96M Credit reward in around 8 hours of play - no complaints on that.

I was lucky in getting some G3 suits and getting the mats for the mods has been tricky but I have got there (Other than SDP I have all the engineers unlocked or ready to unlock.

This forum has been invaluable on tips and locations for me to achieve this but it has been great fun along the way.

Would I love to switch out mods - YES definitely, but maybe just between similar weapon or suit types and I think that will arrive eventually.

This game is very much what you make of it and I still think it is the best space sim out there (mind you I have being saying that since 1984 when any other challenger has come along)

Could it be better - Yes, Could it have less bugs - Yes. BUT it is still the best all round!

Finally to the OP - take your time, have fun and enjoy every aspect of the game rather than focus on one element - read the forums, talk to the community and you will find yourself gripped - Good luck and o7 Cmdr.

 

[Frop]

The bigger grind is the engineering unlock. Go to Colonia and that issue goes away. Playing and enjoying the game whilst picking materials up along the way will eventually see you with materials sufficient to do something that you want done.

Steve 07.

You'll find the lack of Anarchy settlements in Colonia quite disturbing.