The new exploration system

[Ziggy Stardust]

With a properly outfitted ship, how long does it take to get to the core nowadays if someone is trying to make good time? My plan for exploration is going to be the same as it ever was: make all haste towards a destination until I feel I need a break from the monotony of the jump/honk/scoop routine, and then spend the next 30-60 minutes dragging my feet and examining each system I come to very carefully looking for interesting things, then get back to making progress towards my destination and keep repeating that cycle until I get where I'm going. I find that works well to keep my interest up, make decent progress in terms of "mileage" and keeps me awake and engaged on long trips. Utilizing that method, I've never noticed myself having a hard time finding interesting discoveries.

I tried 50 sequential jumps (half a walk in the park) yesterday, checking out the FSS signature each system and found it started to annoy me. It doesn't flow, it's too intrusive.

That isn't due to the core mechanic, but rather the way information is either hidden or presented. I think if Frontier streamlines the process, and removes some of the chunky annoyances, it could work for me.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/453572-Some-feedback-on-the-new-exploration-mechanics

 

[marx]

You know, all that really needs to be done is populating the system map from the Honk and just not make you able to lock onto the planet from that map.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7134366
Then FSS could remain exactly the same and we would still be able to do our survey at-a-glance we currently do.

Actually, I'm starting to think that Frontier might not be doing this (yet?) because of coding limitations. Compare the exploration update to the other updates in Chapter Four, and notice how it seems to have been rushed. Also, note how the orrery has been implemented.

 

[Orvidius]

I suspect my scanning habits will follow a similar evolution to how it did in the old system. That is, right now I'm scanning most of what I come across in the beta, but over time, I'll get more and more selective. "Ruthless selectivity" is probably a good way to put it.

As an example, in the 2.4 - 3.2 era, I started out scanning most HMCs, WWs, AWs, and ELWs. Then that dropped to "convenient" HMCs instead of most. Then I stopped worrying about HMCs altogether unless they're already in range or look neat. I started skipping WWs further than 3kls, and then 1kls. Then I started skipping AWs further than 10kls, then more like 5kls.

But this is only when I've been using the body types to determine whether a system is interesting, rather than judging the layout or appearance. Since the latter are going to be hidden behind a scanner wall, and the distances will no longer matter on the former, the overall strategy has to shift.

I was never a true completionist about it. I was happy to skip anything that required very long supercruise, for example, and I didn't care about icy bodies all that much. But the new mechanics seem to encourage completionist scanning, otherwise just honk and go.

I don't know where the most enjoyable balance will be, or the optimal cutoff for selecting what is "interesting", or what other criteria may come into play with the absence of an up-front map. Only time will tell.

 

[Orvidius]

You know, all that really needs to be done is populating the system map from the Honk and just not make you able to lock onto the planet from that map.

Then FSS could remain exactly the same and we would still be able to do our survey at-a-glance we currently do.

Actually, I'm starting to think that Frontier might not be doing this (yet?) because of coding limitations. Compare the exploration update to the other updates in Chapter Four, and notice how it seems to have been rushed. Also, note how the orrery has been implemented.

That's quite possible. In order to add them to the map without them being selectable, they might have to change some fundamental design aspects to keep them hidden from the nav panel, and the HUD as well. I suspect these are all linked at a low level in their code.

 

[rodvik]

Yeah I have played it even more. For me the FSS is just awful and a massive nerf to exploration, the DSS on the other hand is great and superb.

Sadly the latter does not outweigh the former so if this thing goes live as is then I am out. It just kills exploration for my style of play.

To end on a positive with some suggestions on how to fix the FSS:
1.) just remove FSS and put back in honk while keeping DSS.

or
2.) Keep the FSS telescope but remove all the arrows and tuning stuff, just have you point the FSS telescope at any blue blob and it resolves it for you automatically. This would take marginally less time than the current implementation but entirely remove any guessing or frustration as you move the dial around because the dial would be gone.

or worst case
3.) Keep the lines but have it auto dial the line things for you. So if you hover over a blue blob then you can move the dial if you want and resolve but if you wait 2 seconds it simply auto dials it for you.

Suggestion 2.) wouldn't entirely fix the FSS problems but would make it playable at least. 1.) would be ideal however. 3.) is a kind of compromise between the new grind for folks who like it vs exploration. A bit like an autodock module really.

 

[Straha Yeagar]

I suspect my scanning habits will follow a similar evolution to how it did in the old system. That is, right now I'm scanning most of what I come across in the beta, but over time, I'll get more and more selective. "Ruthless selectivity" is probably a good way to put it.

As an example, in the 2.4 - 3.2 era, I started out scanning most HMCs, WWs, AWs, and ELWs. Then that dropped to "convenient" HMCs instead of most. Then I stopped worrying about HMCs altogether unless they're already in range or look neat. I started skipping WWs further than 3kls, and then 1kls. Then I started skipping AWs further than 10kls, then more like 5kls.

But this is only when I've been using the body types to determine whether a system is interesting, rather than judging the layout or appearance. Since the latter are going to be hidden behind a scanner wall, and the distances will no longer matter on the former, the overall strategy has to shift.

I was never a true completionist about it. I was happy to skip anything that required very long supercruise, for example, and I didn't care about icy bodies all that much. But the new mechanics seem to encourage completionist scanning, otherwise just honk and go.

I don't know where the most enjoyable balance will be, or the optimal cutoff for selecting what is "interesting", or what other criteria may come into play with the absence of an up-front map. Only time will tell.

One thing my planetary circumnavigation did was give me a profound appreciation for the surface features of some of these planets. Once I really got going on that, I went way out of my way in some cases to experience the fascinating, and oft difficult terrain features. I think the timing of my Meridian expedition was prophetic in a way as the new mechanics will make that kind of activity much more accessible since I can very quickly get the surface maps now. I can find all the tall mountains, deep gorges, huge craters, mineral content in an entire system in a matter of minutes, many times even faster than getting the details of a single planet in the old system.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

If you are too critical about FD or the development, you will get hammered. I did.

Not to mention that the mods must follow the instructions from higher echelons like Brett C & I strongly suspect he (and others) have the power to close threads but they must be too busy.

 

[Mengy]

I suspect my scanning habits will follow a similar evolution to how it did in the old system. That is, right now I'm scanning most of what I come across in the beta, but over time, I'll get more and more selective. "Ruthless selectivity" is probably a good way to put it.

I think what will happen with me is that I'll end up having two very defined modes while out in deep space: pure traveling, and pure exploring.

Most of the time I'll be in full explorer mode, completely FSS'ing every system to get it's sys map and orrery, and from there I can tell if I'd like to probe any planets or even land on a few to see surface features or take pics. For me this will be a slow meandering process but one I think I'll greatly enjoy.

When I want or need to get somewhere in a timely fashion I'll switch to pure traveling mode, where I'll jump and honk as fast as possible while skipping the FSS completely. This means I'll miss a lot along the way but I will be able to make very good distance per hour. Or, if I'm not super pressed for time I might even open the FSS and glance at the spectrograph before jumping. While this would slow me down a bit it would allow me to see if I've found anything super crazy or extreme, worthy of stopping for a look see.

Basically, I think for me in 3.3 the two styles will move to further extremes, whereas for the past four years they've often crossed over.

 

[BaldEagle]

Just to lighten the mood …
I found an ELW with the Beta:

Spoiler

As for the rest. The jury is still out. I agree with Allitnil re the FSS; I will hang on for now
ps
The ELW is there if anyone is nearby ...

 

[Chrystoph]

Pretty

 

[Scytale]

The more I try it, the more I find this FSS is boring, clumsy and outrageously ugly UI for a 2018 game.

 

[Macedonica]

I'm still hesitating on the fence here: I've spent the last 4 days playing with different key bindings on the HOTAS to make the whole experience feel intuitive rather than intrusive and seem to have failed miserably. I've jumped into over 30 systems and used the scanners and features both intensively and haphazardly to simulate a long exploration hike. My impression based on nothing more than a feel for how I like to play based around immersion and role-play is that the FSS and the probe mechanic while individually interesting as minor game-play mechanics fundamentally break immersion for me and add a level of mini-game which I am not used to.

In a nut-shell, I am now switching between HUD-modes, scanner-modes and screen modes like a poker player shuffling cards. It's fiddly and breaks a smooth game-play arc which I am used to and now miss. As a VR player (and the VR implementation is woeful at best here), I love sitting in the pilot's sit and gazing around out of the canopy. Yes, I switch to the system map after the initial honk but that used to be the only switch-out from that seat. I almost didn't notice doing it - and it may be that after a while this will all seem intuitive also. At the moment, however, it doesn't. It breaks that immersion as I am now in the pilot's seat, then the FSS screen, then the system map, then super-cruising to a planet, then into the HUD mode for the probes, out again, in again, out, in, landing to spot a geyser field, and so on.

Add to this the lack of any exploration content as yet and it all feels mechanistic for its own sake. Does firing the probes look cool? Yes. But I remember Mass Effect and this is a cousin to that game mechanic. Is the FSS an interesting mechanic in its own terms? Yes but it is hardly challenging - quite the opposite: there is no skill set to be learned here. It's a jazzed up mini-game which has nice sound effects. It reminds me of a mini-game in a Final Fantasy game (VII, I think).

The moment I ditch the FSS and have no need of the probes, settle back in the seat and then gaze out of the plexi-glass canopy is when this game shines for me. Every time I am in a mini-game pretending to 'discover' something I am cursing the VR headset and FDs poor implementation of VR.

However, that all aside, I am still persevering as I know much of this may just be nostalgia and a stubbornness born out of an irrational fear of change. I do realise that. I am not that interested in 'discovering' things. I am far more interested in 'exploring' things - the first attempted summit of Mount Neverest, for example, which led to me SRVing into low orbit. The FSS and the probes are discovery mechanics and only one half of a coin. Now let's see the exploration half once the update is live to really appreciate the change in depth.

 

[shreddog]

The more I try it, the more I find this FSS is boring, clumsy and outrageously ugly UI for a 2018 game.

We heard you the first time.
And I don't agree.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Then you should be posting it in the beta feedback forum. At this point, I doubt the dev's are reading this thread closely (or at all).

The devs do read the forums (or so they say).

 

[Funny]

I set my twist axis to tuning. I like looking at planets too *shrugs*
I find myself actually looking forward to scanning everything. I found a few interesting planets too. In short, it gets a thumbs up compared to the old system. The occlusion issue and others need some sort of method to solve it though.

 

[Ziljan]

With a properly outfitted ship, how long does it take to get to the core nowadays if someone is trying to make good time? .

About 2 hrs to reach the core using the neutron highway. Not very long at all. And all of these systems along the highway will be communally discovered (ie full system map revealed). You'll have to veer off it and step into undiscovered systems before you can really start using the new FSS properly.

 

[Chrystoph]

So, here's a system I encountered back during DW3302; it is an interesting little bit of astronomy, but, I bring it up because of the example it provides.

Spoiler

If it is isn't an anchor star or a planet, it is a Class T. Four planets in the system, all of which are going to be a nuisance to see in the new scanner because they are in close companionship with a star, only two of which are landable. While I found this worth taking a screen shot of, it is not something I feel worth additional time in exploration unless I am just in the mood to scrawl my name on the system. Making that decision, and ONLY that decision, currently can be done while the ship is on a shallow skimming trajectory; in fact, it took longer to write this than to decide.

That entire decision has been removed from the game under the new mechanic because I will have already done the additional work before I can make an informed decision about the system.

 

[marx]

About 2 hrs to reach the core using the neutron highway.

Take a look at the Buckyball times. It's two hours if you're a pro Buckyballer, in a cardboard Anaconda, and you spent X hours before you actually set out, to plan your route. Even in an Asp, that increases to 3.5 hours, and the time required quickly goes up from there.

For your "average" explorer, with no experience in Buckyballing and no prior route planning (just in-game via the plotter), it would take roughly thrice as much time in the old system, so let's go with 6/10.5/24 hours. Those are Anaconda / AspX & DBX / Other ship times. Even then, you're mostly only exploring neutron star systems.

In the new one, you'll have a choice to make: either take that much time to get there and do no exploration at all, or stop to do exploring along the way, in which case you'll take multiple times that. Let's go with four times as much (although it would likely be more): then it's 24 / 42 / 96 hours.
Of course, it would be better to actually measure these in the new system, but yeah, I'll pass on doing that in the beta.

 

[Mengy]

So, here's a system I encountered back during DW3302; it is an interesting little bit of astronomy, but, I bring it up because of the example it provides.



If it is isn't an anchor star or a planet, it is a Class T. Four planets in the system, all of which are going to be a nuisance to see in the new scanner because they are in close companionship with a star, only two of which are landable. While I found this worth taking a screen shot of, it is not something I feel worth additional time in exploration unless I am just in the mood to scrawl my name on the system. Making that decision, and ONLY that decision, currently can be done while the ship is on a shallow skimming trajectory; in fact, it took longer to write this than to decide.

That entire decision has been removed from the game under the new mechanic because I will have already done the additional work before I can make an informed decision about the system.

In short, yes. Despite myself mostly liking 3.3, that is my issue with the new mechanics: you need to explore before you can decide if you want to explore or not.

 

[marx]

Despite myself mostly liking 3.3, that is my issue with the new mechanics: you need to explore before you can decide if you want to explore or not.

I don't mean to offend with this, but I'd rephrase that. With the new mechanics, you can't make an informed decision if you want to explore a given system or not. You have to scan everything first, and all you can decide afterwards is if you want to probe anything or not.
If you don't want to miss anything we could have found before, that is.