Hi jefranklin18
I must say, some of the comments below the article made me laugh!
The Old Elite IV speculation thread
I must say, some of the comments below the article made me laugh!
We think it was a bit of a slow news day for Eurogamer yesterday and their story really doesn't have much substance. You're right about the comments though, Geraldine. There are some funny ones in there.
Hi jefranklin18
I must say, some of the comments below the article made me laugh!
Surprised by the Frontier hate in the comments.
This one was particularly stupid:
the realistic solar system physics meant that you could warp into a system and then have to spend so many months getting to the required planet that you actually timed out on a mission. This was unbelievably unacceptable to a younger me.
Bull****. In the human inhabited area, Only Alpha Centauri and to lesser extend 61 Cygni had such long travel times.
Boohoo, two star systems to remember not to take missions to them. Big deal. Frontier forced you to think.
I for one liked the Elite sequels more than Elite itself. There were unique. There are dozens of Elite clones, in space, underwater, whatever. I don't need one more Elite clone. No one dared what Braben had done with FE and FFE.
from eurogamer:
Eurogamer has been told by multiple sources that the game was in pre-production stages until recently but has since been put on hold
I have a bad case of Déjà vu..
Where have I heard this? Ah, right:
-------------
GSUK: So, first things first. Are we ever going to see Elite 4?
DB: Well, we started it in 2000--and we stopped it in 2000. The reason was, we started it as a MMORPG, and the technology at the time for connectivity was rubbish. It had been oversold by the providers. We realised very quickly that what we wanted to do would overload the system and that we would end up taking the blame for the failings of the telecommunications industry. It was put on hold after that.
---------------
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6162140.html
That's from 2006
So it was in pre-production again and again put on hold?
Well, I still grant Braben benefit of doubt. He always said that they will work on it after The Outsider, and The Outsider is still not released....
Eurogamer has been told by multiple sources that the game was in pre-production stages until recently but has since been put on hold
I have a bad case of Déjà vu..
Where have I heard this? Ah, right:
-------------
GSUK: So, first things first. Are we ever going to see Elite 4?
DB: Well, we started it in 2000--and we stopped it in 2000. The reason was, we started it as a MMORPG, and the technology at the time for connectivity was rubbish. It had been oversold by the providers. We realised very quickly that what we wanted to do would overload the system and that we would end up taking the blame for the failings of the telecommunications industry. It was put on hold after that.
---------------
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6162140.html
That's from 2006
So it was in pre-production again and again put on hold?
Well, I still grant Braben benefit of doubt. He always said that they will work on it after The Outsider, and The Outsider is still not released....
Accompanied with:
Combat was a matter of two masses moving relative to each other at hurtling speeds, losing the arcade immediacy of the original. Generally AI pirates just ended up crashing into me, forcing the most undeserved game over, because presumably they found the flight system impossible as well.
A tell-tale sign of crappy pilot. There was a period when my preferred tactics in FE2 involved keeping close and disabling enemy drive with carefully aimed, short burst of beam laser. Uncontrollable jousts my ass.
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Hmm. Maybe if I disabled his drive he would find flying easier? :>
[/EDIT]
Likewise.
Every open-ended space-sim/trading game in existence is basically an Elite clone. I hope that Braben works around possible problems with scope and physics by providing helpful, fully optional automatics, rather than ditching all that made Frontier special.
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Well, look on the bright side DraQ, if the new Elite is to be a MMORPG, people like that wont last long against experienced Frontier Pilots.
It's always been my view that an online Elite game would see it's players divide into two basic groups, one that has either mastered (or are willing to spend the time to learn) the unassisted flight model and another group who either can't or wont. If there was ever an online battle between the two groups, my guess is it would be pretty one sided! Absolutely agree DraQ and I hope he can pull it off too, but this wait.......
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if all fails
you can still play invaders
you can still play invaders
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I'll have to be honest here and admit that I never really liked the Elite sequels. I still remember the disappointment when I got home and fired up Frontier, after weeks of childish anticipation it was a bitter blow.
I wanted the new Elite to be Elite+; filled in polygons, planets you could land on, more ships, more missions, more everything! And it sort of was, but it was also fiendishly difficult compared to the original. I couldn't win any space battles, it was like trying to shoot a fly from a speeding car, and getting anywhere soon involved farting around with time compression. The game I had dreamed of appeared to be there, but I couldn't access it. As Draq so eloquently puts it, I must have been a crap pilot. I was, and it probably had something to do with me being an impatient, spotty teen at the time.
They had taken a winning formula and added so much technology to it without asking if it was necessary or desirable that they narrowed the games appeal. It ceased to be a game and instead became a chore, a simulation that appealed to physics students and astronauts and nowhere near the wide audience it had before. If you didn't have the patience or the brains to work on that steep learning curve, you went back to playing X-Wing and tossed Frontier aside. A technical tour de force, but not a good choice for a game company looking to sell as many units as they could.
Only now am I willing to try and sit down and learn the game, and I will make the effort as soon as I get the damn thing to work correctly. I hope it's worth the effort.
I wanted the new Elite to be Elite+; filled in polygons, planets you could land on, more ships, more missions, more everything! And it sort of was, but it was also fiendishly difficult compared to the original. I couldn't win any space battles, it was like trying to shoot a fly from a speeding car, and getting anywhere soon involved farting around with time compression. The game I had dreamed of appeared to be there, but I couldn't access it. As Draq so eloquently puts it, I must have been a crap pilot. I was, and it probably had something to do with me being an impatient, spotty teen at the time.
They had taken a winning formula and added so much technology to it without asking if it was necessary or desirable that they narrowed the games appeal. It ceased to be a game and instead became a chore, a simulation that appealed to physics students and astronauts and nowhere near the wide audience it had before. If you didn't have the patience or the brains to work on that steep learning curve, you went back to playing X-Wing and tossed Frontier aside. A technical tour de force, but not a good choice for a game company looking to sell as many units as they could.
Only now am I willing to try and sit down and learn the game, and I will make the effort as soon as I get the damn thing to work correctly. I hope it's worth the effort.
right on commander!
Well, my reaction (in 2006) was more along the lines of:
"Whaaat? Such game has existed for how many years and no one told me? Itsaghsaafsaaadaaavmasaaaghugh!!!"
Odd, I can't fly in Elite. Literally. Pitch+Roll are like the worst controls for a space-sim ever.
Well, I had to learn to fly in FE2 before it stopped being like this, but how rewarding it was.
Imagine a pirate piloting an Adder sitting perfectly still right in the middle of your crosshair, despite desperate attempts to shake you off, resulting in kilometre long gouts of plasma erupting from his directional thrusters, but no actual effect as you almost unconsciously counter each of them with short burn of your own. Then you decide to end his torment by with short, precise pulse of your laser, silencing his engines and turning his ship into quickly expanding cloud of incadescent debris. After the fireball cools and disperses, you calmly switch HUD labels on to examine several points of light slowly drifting through space after the explosion - after determining the contents of the surviving containers you apply several precise burns and move in to scoop your prize.
How was it a problem again? Of all accusations levelled against the game this one is the most bizarre.
It might be the specific of my country where original games were practically impossible to get at the time, and rampant copying and bootlegging resulted in tons of copies without any sort of documentation, which kids back then had to 'solve' entirely on their own by gritting their teeth and trial and error, but I recall one of the stories by one of Polish Frontier vets how any kid in his neighbourhood who could not make a perfect pass under the bridge near new San Fran' with his eyes closed on his Amiga was considered a complete, utter loser.
Quite the contrary. In addition to an excellent space shooter (yes, excellent, after you expended some effort learning it), broadened appeal of more and better possible careers, and bigger universe, you also got a perfect physics toy.
To be honest, I'm increasingly allergic to people who can't be arsed to sacrifice some time to learn a game, but in spite of getting back to casual titles like tetris, the insist on spoiling the fun of those who are willing to put some effort in it and don't demand instant gratification. Especially when purportedly "hard" game allows one to enter the trade routes and profit with but several uncoordinated clicks of a mouse and no more knowledge than it is absolutely necessary to lock on the system's coordinates and select the target for autopilot.
Anyway, I will be more than happy to answer questions and provide necessary assistance.
I've only tried elite a couple of times, and can't stand its airplane physics. i realise this was a necessary limitation at the time though. I grew up with frontier and i suppose i'm spoiled by the complex flightmodel. Its interesting how i seem to have more control of the ship in FFED3D or any uprezzed version, if you fly skillfully with a fast ship, you can get on an opponents "6" and it feels much more like a dogfight, except in space with proper physics, which is awesome.. helps if you have full control over the thrusters too.
As far as reviews go, sadly most games reviewers are morons, they can't write, or play anything more than the most simple game. I can't stand it when a reviewer is clearly incompetant at flying anything more complex than an xwing, and then moans that he can't play it... Same can be true for driving games, something like Richard Burns rally was absolutely slammed by most reviewers because they couldn't drive a car for ****. just because it was a far more realistic simulation. Its just more challenging, and once you're used to it, its more rewarding. for me anyway.
Colin mcrea series, the competing title at the time, which was pretty good in fairness, always got better marks because of the simplistic driving model and forgiving terrain... but maybe thats a marketing issue as much as anything, i can understand why they might not market it as a 'sim' which is what it actually was
As far as reviews go, sadly most games reviewers are morons, they can't write, or play anything more than the most simple game. I can't stand it when a reviewer is clearly incompetant at flying anything more complex than an xwing, and then moans that he can't play it... Same can be true for driving games, something like Richard Burns rally was absolutely slammed by most reviewers because they couldn't drive a car for ****. just because it was a far more realistic simulation. Its just more challenging, and once you're used to it, its more rewarding. for me anyway.
Colin mcrea series, the competing title at the time, which was pretty good in fairness, always got better marks because of the simplistic driving model and forgiving terrain... but maybe thats a marketing issue as much as anything, i can understand why they might not market it as a 'sim' which is what it actually was
Draq, concerning time compression, it's not a "bizarre accusation", it's what we call an opinion. I dont hate the game, I just found it a disappointment at the time. Now I'm not 12 I'm willing to give it another go.
I'm sure it's very rewarding to get the hang of the physics and so forth, but no one is denying there's a fair old learning curve involved. Back when the game first came out I was expecting a space game like Elite, and instead was presented with a complex sim I didn't think worth the effort. I have no problem with Elite's roll and climb controls, it's nigh on the same as all the aircraft dogfight sims that were out at the time. You cant yaw 180 degrees in a plane either.
I'm sure it's very rewarding to get the hang of the physics and so forth, but no one is denying there's a fair old learning curve involved. Back when the game first came out I was expecting a space game like Elite, and instead was presented with a complex sim I didn't think worth the effort. I have no problem with Elite's roll and climb controls, it's nigh on the same as all the aircraft dogfight sims that were out at the time. You cant yaw 180 degrees in a plane either.
But HOW? In what way did time compression interfere with your enjoyment? This *is* bizarre.
There is also no denying that you can start playing the game right off the bat even if you're completely unskilled. F7, RMB+Mouse up, Enter, F9 - bam, safely flying away from the planet, undercarriage up.
Definitely not rocket science.
Yes, but there is no point in rolling in a spaceship. There is no air in space.
Pitch+Yaw gives you two axws of rotation that are perpendicular to the ship's main axis, so you can just aim it wherever you please. Pitch+Roll give you only one, which you have to align in order to even start aiming your ship.
sometimes we might forget how hard it was when we first tried.
i really had to cheat "hard" using my CD32 control pad with autofire on pause/play, to slow the game a bit down, that i could aim at my opponents with the pad.
when i play frontier now, it's like sleepwalking, but i think that's just because i played it so often in all those years.
i'm shure, to play frontier on the CD32, was harder then now on the PC, even when i play the CD32 version with WinUAE, it's not the same.
when i play frontier (not first encounters) on a PC, the enemys come allwas lined up like a string of pearls, but as far as i remember, when i played on the AMIGA, it happened often that a bulk of fighters was awaiting me, likewise in first encounters.
i really had to cheat "hard" using my CD32 control pad with autofire on pause/play, to slow the game a bit down, that i could aim at my opponents with the pad.
when i play frontier now, it's like sleepwalking, but i think that's just because i played it so often in all those years.
i'm shure, to play frontier on the CD32, was harder then now on the PC, even when i play the CD32 version with WinUAE, it's not the same.
when i play frontier (not first encounters) on a PC, the enemys come allwas lined up like a string of pearls, but as far as i remember, when i played on the AMIGA, it happened often that a bulk of fighters was awaiting me, likewise in first encounters.
For me, at the end of the day you're flying a rocket ship through space (albeit a spiffy nuclear powered jobby), and to have it feel like an aircraft is just wrong, especially in a universe like frontier. You wanna fly an aircraft, play a flight sim, why should every game have to feel exactly the same to play?
To me, it's as ridiculous as complaining that a motorbike game does not feel exactly the same to play as a car game and is therefore unplayable. Thats not to say i didn't enjoy xwing or wingcommander, etc, but those are far more fantasy based games i can kinda disconnect a little more in those and the story is much tighter, it feels like a work of fiction and its fun, and i enjoy it for that.
In contrast, there's a gritty reality to frontier that would be destroyed by xwing like physics, and theres not as much charm in the story, and not really much story at all, which is even possible to avoid all together, or even not know its really there. The percieved realism made up for all that though, along with the freedom it offered. It was a game which required some imagination and thought rather than a fairly mindless (other than tactical) shooter like xwing.
Perhaps it suffered from over-estimating its audiences knowledge of physics and how things really work, because its nerdier than is fashionable. Compounding that, i dont recall there being a huge amount of documentation on how to fly and fight and why things are working all funny compared to elite or wing commander. it could be difficult to make sense of what was going on at times, even for me and i was a pretty good frontier pilot at age 12, on my brand new amiga 1200. fun times
To me, it's as ridiculous as complaining that a motorbike game does not feel exactly the same to play as a car game and is therefore unplayable. Thats not to say i didn't enjoy xwing or wingcommander, etc, but those are far more fantasy based games i can kinda disconnect a little more in those and the story is much tighter, it feels like a work of fiction and its fun, and i enjoy it for that.
In contrast, there's a gritty reality to frontier that would be destroyed by xwing like physics, and theres not as much charm in the story, and not really much story at all, which is even possible to avoid all together, or even not know its really there. The percieved realism made up for all that though, along with the freedom it offered. It was a game which required some imagination and thought rather than a fairly mindless (other than tactical) shooter like xwing.
Perhaps it suffered from over-estimating its audiences knowledge of physics and how things really work, because its nerdier than is fashionable. Compounding that, i dont recall there being a huge amount of documentation on how to fly and fight and why things are working all funny compared to elite or wing commander. it could be difficult to make sense of what was going on at times, even for me and i was a pretty good frontier pilot at age 12, on my brand new amiga 1200. fun times
yep, i've noticed this too... you have to stardream to get the next attacking ship to, err, attack. The amiga version had much better combat, you would never be attacked in force on the pc version. I think this is what you mean? i'd be interested to know why it was different like that. it was more fun - and realistic, to be ambushed by multiple ships.
Oh wow, two years and a day since I've been here. Well, friends, I'm sorry if I upset you with that old post up there, as that wasn't really my intention. I do believe Frontier is working on Outsider. However. Seeing as how it's been another two years without any real updates, my words don't really sound quite so foolish, do they? Off the mark, perhaps, but not without merit.
IIRC was not the PC version a port of the Amiga game?.some times these thing get changed for the better of the worse of the game.
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I think the Amiga CD32 version featured this and many other improvements.
Include better documentation and combat-suitable semiautomatic modes in addition to full manual, autopilot and set speed.
I wasn't fortunate enough to know of Frontier when it came out. I think I just got my c64 at the time, and was going to remain oblivious of Frontier's existence for about 13 more years. Nevertheless, when I was this kid with new shiny c64, I always dreamed of such game. I've always read a lot, especially a lot of SciFi, and in Poland, SciFi primarily meant Stanislav Lem, as much as his books may seem difficult and unsuitable for such a young kid.
I remember that when sledding in winter I noticed semblance between patterns of black ice and white snow and cloudscapes viewed from orbit, and often imagined that my wooden sled is a spacecraft - it even gave this feeling of weightlessness when speeding down the slope.
I think it all does explain my reaction to Frontier many years later.
Quoted for emphasis.
Lesson for Frontier:
Include better documentation and combat-suitable semiautomatic modes in addition to full manual, autopilot and set speed.
I wasn't fortunate enough to know of Frontier when it came out. I think I just got my c64 at the time, and was going to remain oblivious of Frontier's existence for about 13 more years. Nevertheless, when I was this kid with new shiny c64, I always dreamed of such game. I've always read a lot, especially a lot of SciFi, and in Poland, SciFi primarily meant Stanislav Lem, as much as his books may seem difficult and unsuitable for such a young kid.
I remember that when sledding in winter I noticed semblance between patterns of black ice and white snow and cloudscapes viewed from orbit, and often imagined that my wooden sled is a spacecraft - it even gave this feeling of weightlessness when speeding down the slope.
I think it all does explain my reaction to Frontier many years later.
How painfully true.
Yes they are completely without merit. Brow beating the Frontier devs will do nothing to speed along Outsider's development. If you want to help, I would suggest that you give them encouragement instead.
I am happy for you that you believe Outsider is in development. Of the little information that Frontier does give away, Liquilla has said on a number of occasions that Outsider is well on it's way. I believe him as he also wont be drawn into any discussion about Elite IV. That to me shows he will only give concrete details when he has them, not speculation. You have to respect that.