The Old Elite IV speculation thread

[Spyderboyy]

If you want to help, I would suggest that you give them encouragement instead.

Actually, if anything, I think my comments are encouraging to them--they'll probably do anything to make sure I'm never proved right!

 

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

I only stumbled on these forums a couple of weeks ago, an old-school Elite fan looking for info on any PC version I might find. I had no idea the company were still going, let alone considering making 'Elite-IV'. I'd never heard anything about it, never knew it was in development, and never considered it a possibility. To be honest, I think the fact that there's no talk about it beyond this specialist forum says more about the chances of it ever appearing than anything else. I'm with Spyderboyy on this one, I think it's not on anyones agenda beyond the remaining fans. I've actually signed up to help try and make the Pioneer game, I think there's more life in the fan created stuff than in the business.

 

[Bungarus]

I think some of you you are giving poor old E1 too much of a slap here. DraQ correctly described the disadvantage because of the missing axis of rotation, but of course the Cobra did not fly like an aircraft. A rolling aircraft flies a curve (otherwise it would make no sense to do it in an aircraft), but in E1 without the atmosphere roll is just that, roll - you have to pitch before the flight vector changes. I first thought it was strange to have only roll and pitch, but then I realized this is sufficient to reach any point within a three-dimensional scope and thought: Ok, why bother with more thrusters, perhaps they are expensive. (-;

 

[DraQ]

I first thought it was strange to have only roll and pitch, but then I realized this is sufficient to reach any point within a three-dimensional scope and thought: Ok, why bother with more thrusters, perhaps they are expensive. (-;

Less expensive than the craft, cargo and life of the pilot if pitted against the craft with extra set of rotational thrusters.

 

[steve tyler]

I'd suggest that feature makes it more in common with aircraft, since space games tend to use pitch and yaw. as for aerodynamic effects, i can't think of any space game that simulates that particular effect. I think most simulate drag to cancel out your inertia and give you a finite speed - usually only a couple of hundred miles an hour in equivalent real world units.

I'm in no way bashing elite or any other game btw... I just dont think those types of physics engines are suitable for a more realistic game.... why do planets orbit without engines, yet my spaceship stops if i chop the throttle? planets themselves would have to be much smaller to accomodate the slower speeds, and the whole scope and scale of the thing would be reduced.

 

[Bungarus]

I think most space games - and all real spacecrafts - use roll plus pitch plus yaw.

Less expensive than the craft, cargo and life of the pilot if pitted against the craft with extra set of rotational thrusters.

But after reaching above average or something I didn't die anymore anyway, and with military lasers killing a bunch of pirates in good circumstances was possible in three seconds. I guess had it only been two seconds because of additional thrusters, they would have started considering me a nuisance.

 

[DraQ]

But after reaching above average or something I didn't die anymore anyway

You would, inevitably, if you were pitted against a ship with more thought out manoeuvring capabilities.

 

[steve tyler]

I think most space games - and all real spacecrafts - use roll plus pitch plus yaw.

i'm obviously not explaining these concepts in enough detail, i will try again.

In most space games (all 3d space games i can think of anyway) you fly mainly with pitch and yaw which are commonly mapped onto up/down and left/right, roll is only really used to align

In every flight sim ever (again every one i can think of) you fly mainly with with pitch and roll, your yaw controls are the weakest in an aircraft, and often you don't need to touch the rudder at all to fly or even land. pitch and roll in this case are commonly mapped onto up/down, left/right.

So therefore, your argument actually points out that elite is far similar to a conventional flightsim than most other space games where yaw is about as powerful a control as pitch and roll is a far less important control.

Also, no matter how your ship actually works, if your roll angle has no bearing on your flightpath (as you pointed out) then its far more sensible to be able to aim with pitch and yaw - you just have a lot more freedom with your cross hairs and more control.

 

[Bungarus]

You would, inevitably, if you were pitted against a ship with more thought out manoeuvring capabilities.

Yes. But fortunately the pirates were too penny-pinching for yaw thrusters as well. And even the Thargoids thought they could invade eight galaxies and still save a dime. Lucky me.

So therefore, your argument actually points out that elite is far similar to a conventional flightsim than most other space games where yaw is about as powerful a control as pitch and roll is a far less important control.

Roll may be of similar importance in E1 and in flightsims but still works completely different, namely as in a spacecraft, so the Cobra never "feels like an aircraft".

 

[steve tyler]

i don't see how you can support that statement, since we all seem to agree that elites flightmodel works exactly like a simplistic aircraft simulation. but hey, whatever.

 

[Bungarus]

Hey:

Roll is a very important and heavily used feature both in flight sims and in E1 (your discovery).

Aircraft: Roll results in curve.

E1-Cobra: Roll results in spinning around one axis, flight vector doesn't change at all.

So that very important and heavily used feature works completely different in both types of craft. That's how I support my statement, which was that the E1-Cobra does not "feell like an aircraft".

Actually a yawing spacecraft feels quite similar to a rolling plane resulting in a big similarity between most space sims and flight sims that E1 can't deliver: Joystick left, craft flies a left curve.

The flight model of E1 is not a realistic spacecraft simulation (with roll being a notable exeption working exactly as in FE2, FFE, Orbiter or reality) but it is even further away of a realistic aircraft simulation.

 

[DraQ]

Hey:

Roll is a very important and heavily used feature both in flight sims and in E1 (your discovery).

Aircraft: Roll results in curve.

E1-Cobra: Roll results in spinning around one axis, flight vector doesn't change at all.

Nevertheless, roll does result in a curve albeit indirectly - you have to roll when you want to your flightpath to curve sideways.

The flight model of E1 is not a realistic spacecraft simulation (with roll being a notable exeption working exactly as in FE2, FFE, Orbiter or reality)

I'm stunned.

but it is even further away of a realistic aircraft simulation.

Is it? You have to roll to turn, you have limited maximum speed, and your velocity vector is tied to the direction your nose is pointing.

Looks like very simplistic flight sim to me, except without specified up-down direction.

 

[steve tyler]

Bungarus, your entire argument at this point that elites flightmodel is nothing like an aircraft seems to be based on the fact that elite does not model a specific secondary aerodynamic effect.

But that doesn't change the fact that you fly it just like aircraft and it mostly behaves like one, albeit one with a very 'arcade' flight model. In every combat situation you fly and fight just as you would in an aircraft... an enemy attacks from head on and breaks to his right, you want to keep your nose on him and get the quick kill.

In an aircraft / flight sim, i'd be yankin the stick to the left and pulling back, which would roll the ship, sorry, plane.. to the left until hes on my lift line, and bring the nose "up" to get my sights on the attacker.

Now, how would you do that same manuver with your Cobra in elite?

 

[potsmoke66]

bungarus, the process of flying a aircraft differs in general from a spaceship.
an aircraft has a unidirectional velocity, the plane is controlled by aerodynamics (wings, flaps), so every maneuvre needs it's time to proceed and control depends on speed (more speed, better control).
a spaceships directional control is by thrusters activity a immidiate reaction is the result of and a once accelerated mass has to slowed down first (in 0 grav) for curse (more speed, less control).

thats why you fly a curve when you roll a airplane and spin with the spaceship otherwise.

 

[Bungarus]

Nevertheless, roll does result in a curve albeit indirectly - you have to roll when you want to your flightpath to curve sideways.

Roll (joystick left / right) does not affect the flight vector at all, you can do it for hours and fly in a straight line. To actually curve you have to pitch (joystick up / down), and that is what I call a big difference compared to a flight sim.

You have to roll to turn

You also have to get out of bed, swtch on the computer, start the game, grasp the joystick and make up your mind about the direction to turn. But it won't happen unless you pitch. Of course you may say getting out of bed does result in a curve albeit indirectly.

The necessity of pitching or yawing to change the flight vector and rolling having no effect on the flight vector screams SPACE.

your velocity vector is tied to the direction your nose is pointing.

This is not necessarily the case with an aircraft by the way, which a realistic flight simulator would have to implement. Incorrect balancing of roll and yaw for instance results in a "dirty curve". Or look at this: Aerobatics on Youtube. But I don't want to split hairs, of course in this respect E1 is closer to air then to space.

Where E1 is closer to space than to air:

• Roll doesn't change the flight vector.
• No gravitation, free movement in 3 directions.
• Maneuverable (pitch, roll) at zero speed.
• Maneuvers like this: Reduction of thrust to zero to minimize turn rate, turn, back to thrust. Standard in any space sim, impossible in any flight sim.
• The sky is black. (Couldn't resist.)

Where E1 is neither close to space nor to air:

• Thrust instantly equals velocity, no inertia.
• Decreasing of thrust immediately reduces velocity, zero thrust = instant halt.

To me this is neither a realistic space flight model nor a realistic air flight model but a flight model sui generis which also feels sui generis (and not like an aircraft).

 

[Callum Rowley]

I've actually signed up to help try and make the Pioneer game, I think there's more life in the fan created stuff than in the business.

I don't see why both can't co-exist - fan created games and Frontier-developed games. The way I see it is, the more the community gets involved in bringing the Elite universe to life in new and creative ways (which to date with the limited tools available is very impressive), the more inclined the powers-that-be will be to introduce mod tools and community programmes to future games to guarantee they last well beyond the initial release cycle.

 

[potsmoke66]

again
even when you take an airplane to space no roll effect, without thrusters, yes there would be a small influence to the curse but deniable because roll wouldn't need much G's (parts of only)
your described effect is only possible in a medium such as air, you perform the roll passive with the position of the flaps and not active with thrusters, thats why the plane turns around (also any pilot will climb or dive for a better effect of performed turn).

to fly a curve with elite ship controls you have to roll to turn and like draq stated, lift or lower the nose to perform the turn in the desired direction.
fortunatly frontiers controls are wired, try to perform a roll manual (won't work with the given thruster directions), anyway in reality it's a very difficult thing in space and you can easely loose complete control of the ship (unpredictable twist on all axes).

complete stop when thrusters off? compliant neither to air nor to space, complete arcade style, imo.

incorrect handling of roll and yaw ends in a catastrophe, when the air stream tears off.

 

[Sir.Tj]

I have to be honest on this one, even though its been a looooong time I do think it will get made eventually, I kind of hoped that last years anniversary might have been the ideal opportunity to make an announcement.

I'd love if the guys at Frontier gave a definite answer to a question which has been asked once or twice on here, just so I can sit back and relax in the knowledge that some day...

Outsider must be getting along now, the trailer has been up onthe main site for a while now, I'm looking forward to it being released as it looks like it could be a cracking game, and of course once it's been released.............

One last thing, I'd love to see a developers log on Outsider.

 

[DraQ]

Maneuvers like this: Reduction of thrust to zero to minimize turn rate, turn, back to thrust. Standard in any space sim, impossible in any flight sim.

That's not in the least bit space-like. That's what?-like.

If you do this kind of thing in space you will retain all your previous velocity and simply start gaining velocity in perpendicular direction.

You'd need to counter with thrusters, not just throttle engines down to zero.

 

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

I seem to remember this thread had a point to it, before it degenerated into a bit of a rant about space v flight sim physics.