The Old Elite IV speculation thread

[Davidtq]

I would guess 3d technology and networking technology (for multiplayer) are relatively old hat, polishing graphics is "nothing that special".

I would guess that the technology they are waiting on is more procedural, AI, physics and content related. AI is at the moment way to simple in most games, NPC's dont generally react to coming across a dead body even if you kill instealth there should be a reaction to seeing a body... crowds dont react to events etc. Theres a lot of scope for big improvements in AI.

Freeform sandbox content is an area which needs real work to get it working. Theres a lot out there that can be worked on to give a game some REAL depth, workable story's, whilst maintaining sand box play style. its easy enough to generate random missions, its another thing entirely to give those random \ endless missions real cause and effect. To give a feeling of real history and roots to your actions. Something to make the galaxy live and breathe more, to make the environment more believable.

 

[Michael Brookes]

It's always possible to find new things that "would be nice". At the end of the day, games like Mass Effect show that as far as graphics and scale go, there is quite adequate mainstream technology to make a new Elite to a standard that today's gamers will love.

A fair point, but people make games not only for the wider world, but for themselves as well. You have a vision for the game you want to make, and feel unsatisfied if you can't match that vision. Mass Effect is an interesting comparison (it's one of my favourite games of recent times), it's an epic game, but the universe is tiny compared to the original Elite (in fairness they are very different games). But it's character development and epic feel to the story are extremely well done, and the ending gave me a sense of achievement in a wider world better than most of it's contempories.

Michael

 

[DrBaggy]

A fair point, but people make games not only for the wider world, but for themselves as well. You have a vision for the game you want to make, and feel unsatisfied if you can't match that vision.

Michael

That's an encouraging point: in a world increasingly driven by accountants it's good to hear that the computer games industry still has areas within it driven by passion (as it certainly did in the early days).

The worry amongst those of us who share that passion is that the technology needed to match that vision might be too far in the future, or that expectations rise at a faster rate than developing technology, so the reality recedes into the distance.

That's how it sometimes feels with E4. It's great to have that vision, and it's clearly shared by those who post here. However, with the series so far the reality of the universe created: it's size, realistic physics/astronomy, and the non-linear gameplay meant we could use imagination to fill in the holes left by imperfect graphics.

Had history been different Frontier would presumably have built incrementally on FFE, but so long has passed that the weight of expectations must be very high. I too want a game that matches my vision, but I'd rather have a still imperfect one than a perfect one that never emerges.

Please?

 

[Michael Brookes]

My point was a general one, I'm not speaking for David here, although clearly he is the man with the vision for Elite 4 and it's his expectations that the game needs to match. Along with that of the gamers who will eventually play it of course I appreciate what you're saying, but Elite 4 is going to have to be something pretty special to meet expectations, and that's what we are working towards.

Michael

 

[Steve O B Have]

A fair point, but people make games not only for the wider world, but for themselves as well. You have a vision for the game you want to make, and feel unsatisfied if you can't match that vision. Mass Effect is an interesting comparison (it's one of my favourite games of recent times), it's an epic game, but the universe is tiny compared to the original Elite (in fairness they are very different games). But it's character development and epic feel to the story are extremely well done, and the ending gave me a sense of achievement in a wider world better than most of it's contempories.

Michael

I agree that it was a brilliant story but the scope of the environment, I felt, was lacking depth and I was bothered by the restriction of playing to story elements. The ending felt a little collapsed and abrupt but overall set a fantastic precedent for storyline. I agree it was an epic story and hopefully one that continues through updates but the game itself felt quite restrictive with little to do after the storyline was done and dusted.

I do wonder if there is going to be that amount of story development going on in E4 and if there is intention to have a similar sort of depth in the races we (might?) encounter? I would love to see more depth in storyline and in character but not for it to be the be all and end all of the game.

 

[DrBaggy]

My point was a general one, I'm not speaking for David here, although clearly he is the man with the vision for Elite 4 and it's his expectations that the game needs to match. Along with that of the gamers who will eventually play it of course I appreciate what you're saying, but Elite 4 is going to have to be something pretty special to meet expectations, and that's what we are working towards.

Michael

Thankyou Michael

I'm sure it will be special, after all DB is the genius who invented a new genre of computer games, fitted a huge universe into 2.88Mb and robbed me of months of sleep!
The problem is that the longer time goes by, the higher the expectations become....and meanwhile we're all getting older!

To mangle my favourite poem:

Had we but world enough, and time,
This coyness, David, were no crime...
But at my back I always hear
Time's wingèd chariot hurrying near;

We believe in you, just wanting it to happen....

 

[The Space Pirate]

Thankyou Michael

I'm sure it will be special, after all DB is the genius who invented a new genre of computer games, fitted a huge universe into 2.88Mb and robbed me of months of sleep!
The problem is that the longer time goes by, the higher the expectations become....and meanwhile we're all getting older!

To mangle my favourite poem:

Had we but world enough, and time,
This coyness, David, were no crime...
But at my back I always hear
Time's wingèd chariot hurrying near;

We believe in you, just wanting it to happen....

Who wrote that poem? Last two lines, at least?

 

[Stefan Mars]

Andrew Marvell wrote it sometime in the seventeenth century. Named to "To his coy mistress" - and yes I had to look it up

Interesting poem DrBaggy.

 

[DrBaggy]

Andrew Marvell wrote it sometime in the seventeenth century. Named to "To his coy mistress" - and yes I had to look it up

Interesting poem DrBaggy.

Its my favourite poem! the full version is here:

http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/marvell/coy.htm

I particularly like the "deserts of vast eternity": such a bleak image. Though on one level it can be interpreted as a chat-up! The last paragraph has such urgency in it: wonderful!

 

[Hooplah]

Elite IV and Freelancer?

Greetings,

Well it's been thirteen years since the release of FFE, and I'm still playing and supporting it! I just took some time off from blowing away bad guys in Reidquat (-3 -6) in my souped up Eagle Mk II to write this message.

With the buzz about Elite IV once again being a possibility, what really makes a great interactive game?

In my opinion one of the best space trading games ever published is Freelancer by Microsoft.

No, it did not have the depth of the Elite games. Nor was there total control during the missions as per deviating from them resulted in failure. But it did have so many things going for it.

1. First up Freelancer was basically a ten hour space movie in which you participated. This was even more apparent per the voices over's from character actors such as John Rhys Davies (Shogun, Raiders of the Lost Arc) and George Takei (Star Trek). As I often like to watch movies again, this also applies to playing the game. It works!

2. There were virtually no BUGS! Eight years since it's release and there has only been one patch to upgrade server side issues.

2. It supports both single player and online play. Today there are dozens of online servers that you can connect to. They range from anything goes all out combat to meek and mild trading venues. Think Eve Online without paying $20.00 a month!

3. It supports user mods. Thus enhanced equipment and weapons, even completely new ships are possible. I've flown a Star Wars Millennium Falcon and a Battlestar Galactica Viper fighter in the game.

The result? Freelancer from day one never left the player out of the loop. Microsoft took notice of what players wanted in a game and they put it all into their release. This opened the doors for serious player support which keeps the game still popular today.

With the Elite games there are many dedicated individual sites. This was also true with Freelancer, but it went much further with a massive support site called Lancers Reactor.

Instead of many sites supporting the games, this site takes contributions from all the world players and puts them in one place. FFE sites also tried this, but never succeeded as well as this one. Add in the many online servers and mods for just about everything in the game, and this game will still be played for years!

So all of the above is really about Elite IV. There are many who want specific game play attributes and items, which is great. I also want the game to be fully supportive of the players as is the case with Freelancer.

As for bugs, send me an Elite IV Beta copy when it's ready! I was patching FFE and supporting the players long after GameTek closed their offices, so I could probably find them all!

Best Regards,

George Hooper
The Frontier First Encounters Art Page

References:

Freelancer http://www.microsoft.com/games/freelancer/

Lancers Reactor http://www.lancersreactor.com/phpBB3/

The FFE Art Page http://www.hooplah.com/encounters/

 

[DrBaggy]

Hi and welcome to the forum!
The positive points for Freelancer are all well made. However, although I was really hopeful before the game came out, and played it through to the end, for me it was a disappointment: more Wing Commander than Elite. The things that spoiled it for me were:
The universe did not feel "real": no Newtonian physics, the background was pretty wallpaper, not distant stars you could fly to, space was "too" pretty, no sense of....well, space! A linear storyline, no landing on planets....I could go on but sound whingeing already! Maybe it's unfair as it was a different experience, more FPS than RPG, but it was touted as an E4-alike. A good blast for a few hours, but insubstantial IMHO.
Feel free to disagree completely!

ps I realise it makes me a SF nerd to mention this, but wasn't John Rhys Davies also in Star Trek: Leonardo da Vinci (holodeck) in Voyager?

 

[Alien]

And don't forget the underrated (in my opinion) Sliders which John Ryhs Davies starred in. And also the many films he's been in.

 

[Hooplah]

Greetings,

Thanks for the "Welcome". It's fun to be here.

On the "surface" Freelancer was both similar and different from Elite.

Elite has ships, equipment, and commodities to play with.
Freelancer has the same.

Elite has the Federations, Imperial, Independents, IRNAs...
Freelancer has dozens of factions to deal with.

Elite has several different career paths with rewards per Military, etc.
Freelancer lets you do the same per working with the Police, etc., just never rewarded you for it other than money or equipment.

Elite had the Milky Way Galaxy but the actual playing field was limited to fuel and time. You can however jump within range to any place directly.
Freelancer has a fixed number of systems which you pass through each to get to where you are going. Direct access requires special Jumpgates.

Thus Elite has Hyperdrive.
Freelancer went with Jumpgates.

Elite can pickup cargo in space. You have to be good at scooping it up.
Freelancer can do the same. You just press a button and the goods are in your hold.

Elite has variable acceleration and turning radius for ships.
Freelancer has fixed acceleration and variable turning radius.

Elite has Autopilot. You can automatically fly to a system or port.
Freelancer has "Auto Plot" per setting waypoints on the system maps. You manually fly everywhere.

You can fly to planets and ports in both Elite and Freelancer.
You can land on planets in both, albeit in Freelancer it is only a cut screen. No manual planet landings in Freelancer.

Elite does not have a background wallpaper screen.
Freelancer does. i agree that this makes space seem smaller. If Elite had wallpaper it would also look small. Microsoft obviously went for "Wow" pretty versus infinity.

Oh, Elite is single player only.
Freelancer is both single and multiplayer, and includes the software to setup your own Freelancer game server!

( Thus online is pretty cool per hanging out at Freeport 9 in Onicron Theta. Lots of players in a chat room session, making mods to their ships, then leaving the station to do friendly battle...if that actually exists! )

The list goes on, but you can see the point. Thus touting Freelancer as an Elite-alike wasn't really too far off the mark. Freelancer is just a lot more simpler version. This is fine for an evening's entertainment, but no way would it ever quench the thirst of a diehard Elite player. Once you go Elite, you'll never be truly happy playing any other games!

So thanks to Bell and Braben for messing up my game play life forever!

Anyway let's hope the Elite IV developers took notice and put in all the great player support that Freelancer has. Then the game industry might as well close shop as the ultimate game had been created! There's no point in trying to exceed or even duplicate it!

John Ryhs Davies has been in just about everything, including two episodes of Voyager in 1997. Check out his credits:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0722636/

Whenever I want to lookup a celebrity I just Google it per: [celebrity name] IMDB

Regards,
George

 

[Spacegamer]

I enjoyed playing freelancer and its the only post 2000 elite style game that i have played to conclusion .But what made the game for me was the atmosphere just hang by the jumpgates or planets and listing to the voice chatter from the other ship it somehow made the game feel more alive and its something the rather dull x games could use.

Ah john Rhys-Davies great actor altrough I sometimes get him mixed up with Brian Blessed .

 

[turwhitt]

Hooplah, you seem to be somewhat of an expert on Freelancer.

I did really enjoy freelancer, although i felt it was too short.

I'm very surprised that, even though it was a successful game, MS have never made a sequel. Do you know of any user-made sequels or anything of that type? It would have to be well made, not just a few tagged-on user missions.

 

[Steve]

John Rhys Davies has been in just about everything

I remember him most from the Indiana Jones films and as Paladin in Wing Commander

 

[Anders Lerche]

- And let's not forget the worlds largest Dwarf, Gimli. That and Sallah from the Indy series are my Rhys Davies favorites.

 

[Steve]

- And let's not forget the worlds largest Dwarf, Gimli

Of course, what a great character. One of my favourites from the LOTR films

 

[Hooplah]

Greetings,

> ...listing to the voice chatter from the other ship it somehow made the game feel more alive. <

Atmosphere...

That's where a game becomes more than just binary code running really fast across a liquid crystal display! It gets into your subconscious emotions without you really knowing what is happening. You become one with the experience, like you were really there (Yes, we're talking ZEN maybe). When you reach that point, endorfins are released and you are as happy and content as a kitty puring while being petted!

That's what happened to me and a world of other Elite fans. Somehow these silly games got into our psyche, and we were so content to fly for game days in the nothingness of space, listening to the hum of the engines, watching the planets and stars pass by...family looking at us and getting concerned...

We all need serious psychological help!

But if I knew the formula for putting that attraction into games, then I would be richer than Bill Gates! So would Electronic Arts, Activision, Konami. They all want that unique experience that sells millions in a month!

> Hooplah, you seem to be somewhat of an expert on Freelancer <

No way. Just another Elite addict who played way to many Freelancer game hours (maybe 1000+) until I knew everything about it. Then many more hours researching it on the web. Why? Because I was still waiting for Elite IV, and needed something to ease my frustrations! But then I reverse engineered the code....added in super ships as well as a collection of Star Wars ships...hmm...maybe I am an expert.

My expertise is all things Elite. If you are flying a modified Falcon or Super Saker III downloaded from the web, it was probably my design. W Heinz created Buffet in 2006 using the FFE code I published on the Internet in 1997. Pocket PC Elite? I co-authored that with Jon Welch, but that's another thread entirely.

But I digress...Sequels to Freelancer? None that I know about. I too was disappointed that Microsoft didn't follow up with the game. But them space RPG wasn't selling too well versus all the other FPS, sports, and racing venues at the time.

However one fan did a Freelancer mod converting it to Elite! It was on Lancers Reactor, but I never did get around to trying it probably because I didn't want to be dissapointed.

Sequels...How about X-Beyond the Frontier followed up by X2-the Threat. I was all into X, and then X2 seemed to ignore or throw out the plot in X, which was dissapointng. Did anyone else feel the same?

How about an Elite that wasn't a port of the original? My hands down winner for this is Evochron by Starwaith 3D Games. Think Elite Plus updated with the latest greatest graphics, sounds, GUI, etc. You could even mine asteroids for diamonds! I worked with the author on the first release tweaking this and that. Since then it has evolved several times into spin-offs as well. Nice going!

John Ryhs Davies is my all time favorite character actor. Heck, I probably played Freelancer a few times just to see his scenes!

I also write too much...can't help it!

Regards,
George

References:

Evochron: http://starwraith3dgames.home.att.net/go.htm

Pocket PC Elite: http://www.eliteppc.com/

 

[Spacegamer]

need serious psychological help!
Funny you should say that as its the same sentance the judge used when he sent me too the padded room.
Anyhow as for the X series so never got that far into playing them, thought beyond the frontier a very poor game and 2 & 3 more management sim with a couple r.t.s features although I will be given the new one a spin when comes out next month.
Played a bit of the demo of evochron renegades,very nice game.But my vote for the best frontier/ffe game go's to this game http://www.a-astra.com/ it may be a bit rough around the edges but you can fly down to the planets surface land anywhere shoot the wildlife ect and remember this is a game made by one guy in his spare time as a hobby,put these so called commercial dev to shame.