The Open v Solo v Groups thread

At the same time there are players who sympathize with the Thargoids and try to defend them. Its totally okay and Fdev even addressed this at one point.
Sorry don't buy that at all, weak defence of Gankers.
If someone was doing it for roleplay reasons they should imo at least give a warning to turn around, like some certain Pirates on this forum who do it for fun and not to ruin other peoples day.

O7
 
I gathered it was marketed as being a combat ship that could match the FDL - you are aware that the FDL isn't only used for PvP play, surely?

The ones who want it have it, the ones who don't, don't bother...
I doubt that PP 2.0 is going to change that.
Unfortunately there are now players who've convinced themselves that PP 2.0 will get loads more people into PvP play. When this doesn't happen the salt will be epic.
 
Unfortunately there are now players who've convinced themselves that PP 2.0 will get loads more people into PvP play. When this doesn't happen the salt will be epic.

I don't think there's anything they could do that would make me interested in PP, and it seems ot me everyone who is interested in PvP will probably already be part of PP, so I suspect you are right!
 
...it seems ot me everyone who is interested in PvP will probably already be part of PP
If that is so, and I can't see a reason to think otherwise (at least a majority 'interested' in current PP for the PvP potential) - it is a clever move by FD to incoroprate a PvP element as part of PP 2.0, as, if it doesn't encourage a massive influx of players into PvP play, they could honestly say that they tried, and the numbers didn't make the effort worthwhile, abandoning further development.
 
Oh trust me if a turkey shoot at cubeo open is in the off. They'll be there.
(Inc of alliance and fed capitals hehe)
((And any other "key"areas))
 
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I don't think there's anything they could do that would make me interested in PP, and it seems ot me everyone who is interested in PvP will probably already be part of PP, so I suspect you are right!

Powerplay is first "ethos" (= a way of playing the game, RP-wise), then it's "politics" (= battle for territories), then it's PvP.

The magic happens when the first two pillars happen in open play and converge to the third element.
 
and it seems ot me everyone who is interested in PvP will probably already be part of PP
And lots like my little group of PPers who have no interest in PvP and will just stop doing it if they push it too far.
Luckily there is plenty to do in game if PP does go PvP.

O7
 
I think that I might have come up with a solution that would satisfy everyone except the cheaters: Change the way instancing works, just a little. I'll explain.

Right now, we have a system where players in solo don't instance with any other players. Everyone they see is a game-controlled AI. No Private Group/Open players can see them or interfere with their activities. PG players see only NPCs and friendly players who are members of their PG. No other players can see them or interfere with them. What does this mean? It means that when they are doing things that has an effect on the BGS or Powerplay, players who oppose what they're doing can't stop them the way they can stop someone playing in open - by interdicting them and killing them or stealing their mission cargo with hatchbreakers etcetera.

So, what can be done about this? FDev want players to be able to choose which other players they will interact with, whether no other players, just the players in their PG, or all players who they haven't explicitly blocked. Players who like playing the BGS or powerplay want to have the opportunity to stop these hidden players. There is a way that everyone can have what they want:

When a player enters the game in solo or a PG - or even in open, with other players on their block list - they should instance in Open, but to players who would not currently be able to see them, they would not appear as themselves (CMDR ...), but as an obvious proxy, LT <random name> (where LT stands for Lieutenant). Their radar icon would appear not solid, but not empty either, perhaps with a dot or a bar inside to show that this is a proxy. The player in solo/PG/open-with-block-list would be able to see only those players they expect to see. Player proxies would be visible to other players only in Open. Essentially, the proxy would be controlled by the player until it gets into a fight. The AI proxy would fight with a skill equivalent to the solo/PG player's combat rank, but its first priority would be escape - if that's possible.

The first an open player would likely see of such a player proxy would be in supercruise. Whenever a proxy is attacked by a player - whether by weapons or interdiction - the solo/PG player would be removed from the instance, and the game AI would take over the proxy copy of the player's ship in the Open player's instance. As soon as this happened, the proxy's BGS/PP 'stuff' - their commodities, cartographic data and the like - would be tagged with a unique identifier behind the scenes, marking them as being 'At Risk' for BGS/PP purposes.

In solo/PG, the player would be oblivious to this, except for a notification on their comms or status panel that any stuff with a potential BGS impact that they were carrying was now at risk, and gains a mark in the inventory to that effect. Obviously, while the proxy is in combat, it can't also appear in supercruise in its player's place.

If the battle between the Open player and the Solo/PG player's AI proxy resulted in loss of the BGS/PP-sensitive stuff, the solo/PG player's corresponding stuff would be marked as Lost for BGS purposes. Otherwise, if the proxy won/escaped, the At Risk tag would be removed.

Let's suppose that a solo/PG player whose stuff is At Risk tries to sell it or hand it in. When they do so, they would be warned that their stuff is at risk due to player action in Open, and that it might not have any BGS/PP effect. If they do sell/hand in, the at risk identifier stays with their contribution. If the proxy wins/escapes, the tag gets removed and the contributions are counted. If the proxy loses, the contributions are removed and the solo/PG player notified that their contributions had no BGS/PP effect. If the tick happens before the At Risk tag is resolved, it's counted - that's an edge case.

If the proxy loses before its player hands any stuff in, the player is warned that the stuff won't have any BGS effect before they do so, and the stuff is marked in their inventory as being ineligble to affect BGS/PP. This mark stays with the stuff even if it is sold or scooped by another player, and should be a filterable condition for limpets to ignore.

The same would go for players in Open who have blocked other players. They wouldn't see or be able to interact with these blocked players, but would present them with a proxy if they're instanced together. If the blocked player attempted to kill the proxy, their stuff would be at risk and might be lost, but the blocking player would see only anonymous notifications. This would stop a player from flying in Open but blocking everyone unknown that they - or squadron-mates - see so that they turn Open into their own PG by stealth.

This could also be used to deal with combat logging in the presence of other players, both menu logging and dropped connections. If a player tries to menu log when in combat, (or the connection is dropped), the game notifies them that they are at risk and waits (10s IIRC) as usual. During this time, if they are destroyed, it's rebuy time. After this countdown time, their proxy takes over, and they change from CMDR <name> to LT <name>... consider it the time it takes for the AI to take over. If the logged-out player logs back in and their ship is not destroyed yet, they go back from LT <name> to CMDR <name>, get to take over again and continue the fight/flight. If they're destroyed in the other player's instance while logged out after the 10s countdown, when they log back in, they're back in their ship in an empty instance, but their stuff is marked as BGS/PP-Ineligble. If they're destroyed while logged out during the 10s countdown, it's rebuy time. Of course, the AI would try to run if it could, or fight if it couldn't run (not fast enough, FSD disabled etc).

Speaking from my experience as a software developer, this system shouldn't be too hard to code. It would require only small database changes, that there be a temporary unique ID attachable to stuff (commodities and data that can have a BGS effect) to mark it as At Risk, and a flag that says that the stuff is BGS/PP-ineligible or not. It would leverage existing ship AI, and shouldn't require on-foot interactionat all. It would only need a few changes in instancing.

This system would mean that Solo/PG players or even Open players with blocklists wouldn't have to deal with people they don't want to deal with, but Open players would be able to prevent their actions from counting toward the background simulation or powerplay. Solo players would still be able to advance their personal narrative even if their stuff is marked as BGS/PP-Ineligible. Only the cheaters running bots in solo or PG would be particularly inconvenienced. Solo or PG players who want to affect the BGS or powerplay would be encouraged to move to Open, since in my experience, humans tend to become better at fighting in ED than the rate at which their combat rank increases. Huimans are better at avoiding interdiction than the usual human ship AIs.

Finally, with this system in place, it might make sense to have player blocks changed so that they can be "Message Only" blocks or "Message & Instancing" blocks. A player might not want to see another player's messages but doesn't care if they see or interact with that player's ship, or might not want to encounter the other player at all.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Given that we all bought a game (on the same terms - whether we enjoy PvP or not) where we all affect the game's features, regardless of game mode, which means that in-the-same-instance PvP is an optional extra, and given that there have been complaints from players who can't accept those design decisions for over a decade, why should the game be changed now, for all players, to accommodate the desires of a subset of the player-base who don't accept the design of the game they bought (on the same terms as those players who do accept the game's design)?

Using menu exit is permissible at any time, according to Frontier, even if they acknowledge that not all players would agree with that stance.
 
Given that we all bought a game (on the same terms - whether we enjoy PvP or not) where we all affect the game's features, regardless of game mode, which means that in-the-same-instance PvP is an optional extra, and given that there have been complaints from players who can't accept those design decisions for over a decade, why should the game be changed now, for all players, to accommodate the desires of a subset of the player-base who don't accept the design of the game they bought (on the same terms as those players who do accept the game's design)?

Using menu exit is permissible at any time, according to Frontier, even if they acknowledge that not all players would agree with that stance.
PVP is an optional extra. My suggestion would allow a player to play in solo/PG as they desire and not engage in PvP. It would also allow Open players the opportunity to negate that player's BGS/PP effect by engaging in PvE with the solo player's proxy. The solo player would barely notice - unless they were trying to affect the BGS/PP - and it would not affect their personal narrative at all.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
PVP is an optional extra. My suggestion would allow a player to play in solo/PG as they desire and not engage in PvP. It would also allow Open players the opportunity to negate that player's BGS/PP effect by engaging in PvE with the solo player's proxy. The solo player would barely notice - unless they were trying to affect the BGS/PP - and it would not affect their personal narrative at all.
Players can choose who they play among, by design - whichever aspect of the game they are engaging in.

Affecting mode shared game features is not something that is exclusive to those players who play in Open, by design.

Taking these two facts together, players may choose to affect mode shared game features from any game mode - and other players can't stop them unless they instance with them.

That some seem to think that they have some right to affect the effects of other players on mode shared game features has been obvious for a long time. They don't though....
 
There is a very simple solution to this terribly thorny issue that appears to get some players twisted and bitter over other players availablity to be interacted with, doesn't need any penalties to players playing how they wish, and puts the whole game to rights immediately.

PP 2.0 should have its own mode - so we end up with 4 modes to select from when starting the game - enabling PP only in that single mode removes concern that players might be hiding somewhere...

As for BGS - it should be exactly that, a background simulation, unable to be directly affected by player actions, instead being an aggregate of play over the entire game galaxy - which instantly removes both grind and the fear that some invisible entity is affecting any single player's private piece of said galaxy.

Why do players look for such complex solutions to incredibly simple issues?

Yes, my tongue is thoroughly in my cheek!
 
PVP is an optional extra. My suggestion would allow a player to play in solo/PG as they desire and not engage in PvP. It would also allow Open players the opportunity to negate that player's BGS/PP effect by engaging in PvE with the solo player's proxy. The solo player would barely notice - unless they were trying to affect the BGS/PP - and it would not affect their personal narrative at all.
Shhhtttt... all peeps here believe that open is where sharks and piranas will devour any defenceless lamb to the bones.
 
PP 2.0 should have its own mode - so we end up with 4 modes to select from when starting the game - enabling PP only in that single mode removes concern that players might be hiding somewhere...
Plot twist:
FDev will reveal that PP 2.0 is in fact CQC, and Rubbernuke and MUSKETEER are the same person: a double agent secretly steering the forums under FDev's guidance.
 
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