The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[SteveWW57]

Large, expansionist factions treading on smaller ones. I've talked about it in this thread and others before, it's a lot harder to stomp on the little guy when you have actually met them, and easy to overlook the carnage if you never meet anyone outside your own clique.

It seems to me that the BGS side of things has been set up to generate conflict. There is little control over where expansion happens which can pit faction against faction. At the expansion stage factions can contact each other as usually there is a contact, and arrangements made. There is nothing that can be done against a big, aggressive faction. Apart from making allies (and that gets you into 1914 style wars) or the little guy biding their time and conducting a guerrilla war to have their enemy in constant wars against non player factions.

I would liken the large, aggressive factions to gankers and griefers, always hurting the little guy.

Steve

 

[Robert Maynard]

Wow, 50 pages.

It's still just a baby compared to the four such threads that have preceded it....

PVP is the red-headed stepchild of this game. Within the context of the strategic paradigm and mechanics within both Powerplay & BGS, there is no reason to play in open and there is no reason to engage in PVP.

It's an optional extra that players may, or may not, choose to engage in while experiencing and affecting mode shared game features.

Piracy... don't get me started, so much FUN could be built into this game...

Fun for whom?

Being the unwilling host of parasitic gameplay would seem to be an acquired taste, not shared by all.

Nevertheless, ganking isn't a problem if you build correctly and have practiced the basic evasion techniques. It is not hard to evade a solo gank if your ships systems are built for the "Dangerous," part of this game.

Building "correctly" in this context usually means "compromising the primary role of the ship to (possibly) evade unwanted forced player interaction" - whereas the attackers don't need to compromise their combat focused ship.

 

[Riverside]

There is nothing that can be done against a big, aggressive faction.

There are things one can do, and I have done them.

Most factions large or small are accommodating, not all of them are.

Over the years I've met far more arrogant & selfish cmdrs BGSing than via direct PvP.

 

[Murky Dregs]

It seems to me that the BGS side of things has been set up to generate conflict. There is little control over where expansion happens which can pit faction against faction. At the expansion stage factions can contact each other as usually there is a contact, and arrangements made. There is nothing that can be done against a big, aggressive faction. Apart from making allies (and that gets you into 1914 style wars) or the little guy biding their time and conducting a guerrilla war to have their enemy in constant wars against non player factions.

I would liken the large, aggressive factions to gankers and griefers, always hurting the little guy.

Steve

It's very easy to control Expansions. The mechanics are well-known and understood. It's easy to tank an Expansion, and it's even more fun to redirect it exactly where "they," don't want it to go.

A small cadre of highly informed players can stop a "big aggressive faction," in their tracks; Carcosa for example.

There's nothing "ganker or griefing," about legitimately playing a PMF. That's ludicrous.

If you want to start a small PMF in a particular location it pays to understand the implication of government types in the context of Powerplay.

If you're a government type that is a positive for the local superpower there isn't much to worry about.

 

[SteveWW57]

There are things one can do, and I have done them.

Most factions large or small are accommodating, not all of them are.

I did mention a couple of ways to stop/counter the big bad faction.

Most factions are accommodating, just like most players.

Steve

 

[TobiasFuzz]

It's very easy to control Expansions. The mechanics are well-known and understood. It's easy to tank an Expansion, and it's even more fun to redirect it exactly where "they," don't want it to go.

A small cadre of highly informed players can stop a "big aggressive faction," in their tracks; Carcosa for example.

There's nothing "ganker or griefing," about legitimately playing a PMF. That's ludicrous.

If you want to start a small PMF in a particular location it pays to understand the implication of government types in the context of Powerplay.

If you're a government type that is a positive for the local superpower there isn't much to worry about.

I did mention a couple of ways to stop/counter the big bad faction.

Most factions are accommodating, just like most players.

Steve

BGS is all about time. Very simple. We once roflstomped a 30 member squad with its PMF with obly 4 players because we had 24/7 time due to random holidays. After 3 days they give up. So in advantage is the PMF that can invest the most total time, not the ones with the most players.

 

[Murky Dregs]

BGS is all about time. Very simple. We once roflstomped a 30 member squad with its PMF with obly 4 players because we had 24/7 time due to random holidays. After 3 days they give up. So in advantage is the PMF that can invest the most total time, not the ones with the most players.

I disagree. There are well-organized PMF's who put up consistent measurable responses and don't give up.

BGS is about efficiency, meaning understanding the effect of your actions and maximizing that per cmdr.

Certain of the larger PMF's don't demonstrate nuanced BGS strategy and rely simply on numbers/overkill and that simply doesn't work in this game due to diminishing returns.

It's one of the more interesting things about BGS.

I've been involved in scenarios where very few hours per cmdr easily countered many hours of actions across multiple cmdrs, in sustained conflict, because they lacked an equal understanding of how the BGS works.

 

[SteveWW57]

I believe that I agree with both the last two posts.

Time available is important, but so is understanding the BGS and the levers that affect it.

You want to spend as little time as possible completing the most effective activities (economy of force).

Steve

 

[TobiasFuzz]

I disagree. There are well-organized PMF's who put up consistent measurable responses and don't give up.

BGS is about efficiency, meaning understanding the effect of your actions and maximizing that per cmdr.

Certain of the larger PMF's don't demonstrate nuanced BGS strategy and rely simply on numbers/overkill and that simply doesn't work in this game due to diminishing returns.

It's one of the more interesting things about BGS.

I've been involved in scenarios where very few hours per cmdr easily countered many hours of actions across multiple cmdrs, in sustained conflict, because they lacked an equal understanding of how the BGS works.

Its a absolute special case that a BGS group has no clue what they are doing. Time is the dominant factor.

 

[TobiasFuzz]

I believe that I agree with both the last two posts.

Time available is important, but so is understanding the BGS and the levers that affect it.

You want to spend as little time as possible completing the most effective activities (economy of force).

Steve

Come on... who is playing BGS with no knowledge about it? Basically you are right, but in "ceteris paribus" (what we assume) time is the dominant factor that determines the outcome.

 

[SteveWW57]

Come on... who is playing BGS with no knowledge about it? Basically you are right, but in "ceteris paribus" (what we assume) time is the dominant factor that determines the outcome.

I suspect anyone actively engaged in BGS will have read the guide. It does not include every nuance I believe, but enough info to allow activities to be planned and carried out effectively.

Steve

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

NPC's don't create difficulty for me. I either submit and destroy NPC's. Or submit and let them scan me and be on my way. G5 safety boat makes them pretty easy. That btw. is reason why I did that grind. I hate seeing rebuy screen, and more unbalanced favoring me NPC encounter is, better.

But it seems pretty hard for some players to understand, that there are many people who do not play this game as bang bang pew pew shooter. And who do not care about that part of it. And for whom that added "challenge" is just unnecessary hurdle.

Sorry, it was a slightly facetious comment. And to be honest, I don't want to be incessantly hassled by tough NPCs to the point where it just becomes a tedious obstruction either.

I think what I might imagine is for there to be a more concerted pushback from NPCs where you are working intensively in a focused way. I.e. supporting a particular minor faction or power. If you're doing it casually, nothing changes, if you're spreading yourself around all factions to maximise income, acting in self-interest but greasing the economic wheels, then you're let be. But if you start picking sides then you're going to get noticed. Generally this will be in competitive situations with other players, since that's when you need to put in the most intensive effort. I'm thinking something in parallel with the current reputation system. It gets built up negative when you work intensively at the net expense of a given faction and decays when you don't, so the pushback is confined as a response to your activities. This makes it a soft opt-in.

One more thing I will say is that combat is fairly front and centre in this game. The very name of the game leverages the caché of a high combat rank and emphasises the notion of it as an aspirational goal. No-one picking up the game without having any interest in combat should expect it to preferentially cater for them over those that have. At the same time, it's great that the game is flexible enough to cater to the wide player base it does. I think it could be done better than it is currently, without major compromise.

 

[Rebel Yell]

I suspect anyone actively engaged in BGS will have read the guide. It does not include every nuance I believe, but enough info to allow activities to be planned and carried out effectively.

Steve

Well, BGS is one of the "core" activities of the game as it's a source of assets like money, materials or even system and stations for the PMFs/groups. I believe that's really the only one activity which is basically mandatory for EVERY new player coming to ED. Regarding the "conflicts" between PMFs/groups, given my experience in BGS wars (can't keep the count anymore ) there are 3 types of them:

Type 1: both PMFs/groups play in solo/PG or on different platforms/tz
Type 2: both PMFs/groups share same platform/tz but one of the PMFs/groups plays in open, the other solo/PG
Type 3: both PMFs/groups share same platform/tz and both play in open

Once a group of players begin to support a PMF, build up an "area of interest" expanding the faction to other systems, picking up assets etc... soon or later it may happen that a sudden drop of INF happens in one of their systems, to the point a conflict starts and the most common questions arising are "who's attacking me? and why?".

Type 1: players doesn't bother, they just grind their way into the BGS to support their faction, damage the enemy etc

Type 2: solo/PG are clearly the winner, as the open only faction may waste a lot of time hunting for ghosts and if they don't realize it they'll lose the first conflict and waste weeks after it (if they realise, it ends up at Type 1)

Type 3: here they are ENEMIES, pews happens with kabooms and after some engagements in 9/10 cases it ends up in some form of a diplomatic agreement
Some Type 3 situations with no sharing of platform/tz ends up in either Type 1 or 2->1

Clearly, type 1 and 3 situations are perfectly "balanced" (I mean, both sides can pursue their goals in the same way) the Type 2 situation is where clearly the compalins are about to come in some cases with [accusations] like "we play in open you don't" etc bottom line it creates a lot of enthropy and for sure it's a source of further social-PvP escalations (more than half of the cases) and unfortunately there's no viable solution for such.

 

[Darrack]

Well, BGS is one of the "core" activities of the game as it's a source of assets like money, materials or even system and stations for the PMFs/groups. I believe that's really the only one activity which is basically mandatory for EVERY new player coming to ED. Regarding the "conflicts" between PMFs/groups, given my experience in BGS wars (can't keep the count anymore ) there are 3 types of them:

Type 1: both PMFs/groups play in solo/PG or on different platforms/tz
Type 2: both PMFs/groups share same platform/tz but one of the PMFs/groups plays in open, the other solo/PG
Type 3: both PMFs/groups share same platform/tz and both play in open

Once a group of players begin to support a PMF, build up an "area of interest" expanding the faction to other systems, picking up assets etc... soon or later it may happen that a sudden drop of INF happens in one of their systems, to the point a conflict starts and the most common questions arising are "who's attacking me? and why?".

Type 1: players doesn't bother, they just grind their way into the BGS to support their faction, damage the enemy etc

Type 2: solo/PG are clearly the winner, as the faction may waste a lot of time hunting for ghosts and if they don't realize it they'll lose the first conflict and waste weeks after it (if they realise, it ends up at Type 1)

Type 3: here they are ENEMIES, pews happens with kabooms and after some engagements in 9/10 cases it ends up in some form af diplomatic agreement
Some Type 3 situations with no sharing of platform/tz ends up in either Type 1 or 2->1

Clearly, type 1 and 3 situations are perfectly "balanced" (I mean, both sides can pursue their goals in the same way) the Type 2 situation is where clearly the compalins are about to come in some cases with [accusations] like "we play in open you don't" etc bottom line it creates a lot of enthropy and for sure it's a source of further social-PvP escalations (more than half of the cases) and unfortunately there's no viable solution for such.

Very good arguments as always.
Speaking for myself after much thought BGS and PP in Open only free for all would probably make for the best gameplay and in the spirit of how the powers work definitely the most realistic (cant believe im writing this!)

BUT and here's the issue to tempt folks like me who do have a PvP background there would have to be more balance and C&P vastly improving.
I don't object to PvP in PP as i have tested many times in Open i never had a single sole try to stop me or my wing.
The issue isn't other PP/BGS players like yourself who i am sure would do PvP in the spirit of power vs power but the idiot pad blockers, CG griefers, gankers especially those who gank trader ships with wing mates (i mean what no skill mummys basement warriors!) that generally keep folks like me as far away from Open as possible.

And yes its a shame because Open is so appealing to me as a mainly MMO player but i cant be bothered with the hassle as it currently stands.

O7

 

[Murky Dregs]

Its a absolute special case that a BGS group has no clue what they are doing. Time is the dominant factor.

How do you get "no clue," from lack of nuance?

Time is not the dominant factor.

There is a maximized efficient mission package a cmdr can perform per tick in the game, surprisingly, it isn't as grindy as most folks approach to bgs.

 

[Murky Dregs]

I suspect anyone actively engaged in BGS will have read the guide. It does not include every nuance I believe, but enough info to allow activities to be planned and carried out effectively.

Steve

The most effective BGS strategies aren't in any guides.

 

[SteveWW57]

The most effective BGS strategies aren't in any guides.

I referenced activities and not strategies. To me they are two different things. Activities are such as running missions to gain INF, strategies are more about what to I want to achieve and the steps to get there. This results in more focused activities.

The guides give info about how the BGS works. Strategies are probably closely guarded secrets amongst those that have divined them.

A final thought; A lot of players will do stuff that have an impact on the BGS with no care. They have found a profitable activity and they are engaging in it. Beyond that, nada.
If a CMDR is carrying out legal activities that have an effect on the BGS, some would argue that they should fly in open so that they could be attacked and/or identified so that dire threats of death and destruction will rain down if they persist. If anything, this kind of intimidation merely reinforces the need for solo and/or PG.

Steve

 

[TobiasFuzz]

How do you get "no clue," from lack of nuance?

Time is not the dominant factor.

There is a maximized efficient mission package a cmdr can perform per tick in the game, surprisingly, it isn't as grindy as most folks approach to bgs.

Time is the dominante factor, mate. If my group can do more of the right missions with inf reward, because we just have more time to play, we win. Easy peasy. And in the almost unbelieveable case someone is shipping biowaste in his/her system thats in outbreak... he/she just have to read the guides to know what is going wrong. The only "unfairness" could occur when one group is limited to Horizons and so lack the opportunity to engage in ground combat or can not raid settlements.

 

[SteveWW57]

The only "unfairness" could occur when one group is limited to Horizons and so lack the opportunity to engage in ground combat or can not raid settlements.

I can see that pov. Give me ground CZs and I will happily support a faction. I believe that it is much easier to fight a war with Odyssey* let alone gain INF quickly which can be done by APEX a lot of the time.

* especially with G5 gear!
Steve

 

[Murky Dregs]

Time is the dominante factor, mate.

Nope. Diminishing returns are. I'm going to simply disagree with you on this.

I know of a particularly outstanding instance of one cmdr holding off an effort by the opposition that consisted of over a billion in bounties per day, at some points twice that, and once even thrice that amount. "They," were spending many manhours across multiple cmdr's to hit those amounts with nil realization that beyond a certain amount it was fruitless all the while he consistently played a highly curated set of BGS actions per tick and stopped them cold.

Time and again I've been involved with and/or seen similiar situations unfold.