The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[Darrack]

No one forces them to participate in pvp, they must (for example) find someone who will provide them with protection for credits, let's say this is called game interaction

O7

 

[darkbanefox]

Personally I wouldn't mind if there was some PvP content. That's not the same as making the game Open-only though. If you're asking for a PvP activity that's OK; if you're wanting everyone to be forced to play in it that's not OK.

Many player groups want more content than there is, and in most cases they organise what they want. For instance, explorers organise expeditions. There's a thread ATM where SRV racers are looking for good racetracks. AX enthusiasts organise groups and cooperate against Thargoids. It puzzles me that PvP players are the only group who don't think they should have to organise what they want and (in threads like this) seem to just want other people to become their content.

If I was creating ED in an image of what I wanted, would I make it Open Only to influence the universe, probably. But this isn't a game just for PvPers nor is this a game just for PvEers and both sides should be taken into account. The question I posed was specific, it wasn't about organizing PvP events though such events are organized. (Recent example

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPBAhVd-k28&ab_channel=Vuldriel
)

The specific question was about having influence on the universe in some way. ESO (Elder Scrolls Online), a PvE game by in large, still gives content for those that choose or want to enage in PvP content by giving them control of the center of the map and to have constant battles for control of points in a constent tug of war (Power Play Concept). Current the only two ways to actually influence the universe of elite are Power Play and BGS, thats it. The triggers for Power Play are tied to BGS states and then intertwien the both PvE and PvP types of people, its a unique and great way to marry both communities rather than the current landscape of who cares about those who enjoy PvP.

Strictly seen, CQC isn't PvE. There are no NPCs/bots in this mode.

Counter-question: Why does there have to be a feature (safe for CQC) in which player vs player has be mandatory?

(Not as an insult to you) But the fact that CQC was offered as an option for the PvP community is slightly insulting nor does this fit the bill of my original question as CQC is an arena mini-game that doesn't even exist in the ED Galaxy nor influence anything. CQC has many issues, to include being very limited in ship choices, only organized (no randomness), has power-ups that drop, and is played by near 0% of the community (0.01% of all registered Inara users have elite 1(like rounded up to that)).

Why does the PvP community need to not be ignored? I think its a rather simple answer and is one that has caused much of the PvP community to shrink of the years. There is a simple lack of anything of value to do as it pertains to PvP and many of left the ED community for such reasons. Its the same that happens in any community when you ignore a facet of them, they leave for better pastures and its sad that ED has done this for as long as it has. Its not PvPers vs PvEers, its about trying to find a way to get both sides to try and come to an agreement rather than both being dug in to their respective trenches and never trying to come to an agreement.

Such a terrible thing to advocate for a community that fosters both sides to work rather than fight each other.

How did they choose to sell the game to everyone?

.... which is to say that the game features that some want to be PvP-gated were sold to all players, or later introduced, as mode shared game features that don't require PvP. It's been clear for years that some of those proposing that one or more game features be PvP-gated to Open don't care that players who don't enjoy PvP would be adversely affected by the changes - which makes it difficult to sympathise with those seeking to effectively remove existing pan-modal game features from other players in Solo and Private Groups.

You've been here the longest and could wait for the response lol.

We have been back and fourth of the selling of the game to include Dev Diary 3 though I think you disagree with such.

You talk of 'adversely' effected player groups, is it not so adversly effecting Open if Solo/PG are more effective means to achieve the same goal? Achieving equality and equity of all modes I think should be more the goal rather than trying to say that doing X only hurts Y though Z is already hurting from the conditions seat fourth. While the removal of Power Play only would remove some content (though limited) from Solo/PG it would be better for the compeative nature of the game and allow for greater compition amonst the player base (something sorely lacking). This change wouldn't invalidate the work of those in PG/Solo as their work would still be critical in maintaing the BGS that supports power play. If anything, I feel the change would help the player base thrive rather than the current notion of strangling those that play in Open and catering to those that play in PG/Solo.

 

[Ettanin]

Why does the PvP community need to not be ignored? I think its a rather simple answer and is one that has caused much of the PvP community to shrink of the years. There is a simple lack of anything of value to do as it pertains to PvP and many of left the ED community for such reasons. Its the same that happens in any community when you ignore a facet of them, they leave for better pastures and its sad that ED has done this for as long as it has. Its not PvPers vs PvEers, its about trying to find a way to get both sides to try and come to an agreement rather than both being dug in to their respective trenches and never trying to come to an agreement.

The system is as optimal as it can get. You got open. No rules save for those governed by the game itself. You can shoot at anything that instances with you.

Taking away PP or BGS is not an option. Everyone paid for it. Taking away anything to transform it into a forced PvP activity is not an option. As Robert said, if you insist on an open only, no holds barred, forced pvp, full loss on defeat environment, an alternate galaxy is the only way to do this. But be wary, it will become emptier each Sol dawning day and people will cry for more peasants to slaughter. The pond is overfished and an alternative environment will not revitalize it because, let's face it, nobody wants to play the victim.

What you want is gank victims. You won't get that here in any way, shape or form, no matter what PvP only feature will be added. Because if that activity is mode locked, people will use other methods to avoid player interaction by using lower OSI layer methods or only fight it in PvP capable ships. You literally get the same as CQC, but spanned over multiple systems and it will be devoid of anything but NPCs by its sheer size. ED is a niche, it is not as popular as WoW, CSGO, DotA2, LoL, GW2 or FF14.

Be careful what you wish for. In any way it will turn out, you will regret it. And if FDev shoehorned it in and alienated the PvE players, they will lose even more.
Elite is not Star Citizen, nor is it EVE, nor does it ever strife to be like both of them.

 

[Darrack]

ESO (Elder Scrolls Online), a PvE game by in large, still gives content for those that choose or want to enage in PvP content by giving them control of the center of the map and to have constant battles for control of points in a constent tug of war (Power Play Concept).

This is one zone only, Cyrodiil, events in there have absolutely no effect in the game world, even Imperial City was separated from anything that happens in this single zone.
Its like making SD an Open only PvP enabled environment but it has no effect on the galaxy at all.

O7

 

[darkbanefox]

The system is as optimal as it can get. You got open. No rules save for those governed by the game itself. You can shoot at anything that instances with you.

Taking away PP or BGS is not an option. Everyone paid for it. Taking away anything to transform it into a forced PvP activity is not an option. As Robert said, if you insist on an open only, no holds barred, forced pvp, full loss on defeat environment, an alternate galaxy is the only way to do this. But be wary, it will become emptier each Sol dawning day and people will cry for more peasants to slaughter. The pond is overfished and an alternative environment will not revitalize it because, let's face it, nobody wants to play the victim.

What you want is gank victims. You won't get that here in any way, shape or form, no matter what PvP only feature will be added. Because if that activity is mode locked, people will use other methods to avoid player interaction by using lower OSI layer methods or only fight it in PvP capable ships. You literally get the same as CQC, but spanned over multiple systems and it will be devoid by its sheer size. ED is a niche, it is not as popular as WoW, CSGO, DotA2, LoL, GW2 or FF14.

Be careful what you wish for. In any way it will turn out, you will regret it. And if FDev shoehorned it in and alienated the PvE players, they will lose even more.
Elite is not Star Citizen, nor is it EVE, nor does it ever strife to be like both of them.

First statement, is as optimal as it can get so nothing should ever be changed in elite. Got it. (Love the room to compromise, but least you established no compromising allowed).

Second Statement, Who talked about taking away BGS? Did you see a PLAG video and just go rage mode? Who insisted on Open Only or no holds bar full loss on defeat? I am seriously thinking you saw a PLAG video and went rage mode. I simply suggested moving Power Play to open and leaving BGS in its current state allowing both communities to work together and for both communities to have purpose.

When did I ever say I wanted 'Gank Victims?' What I said was I want to restore a sense of competition to the game and to foster both the PvE and PvP side of the communities. As far as organic PvP being the same as CQC, literally just tells me you have never done PvP nor gotten involved with said community. But I am unsure where all this aggression is coming from. If the video offended you I am sorry for such, its a harmless video about people who practiced PvP with consent. Never thought it would be so contentious.

Even my prior statements on the matter never went into ganking and were strictly related to Power Play kills.

Question 1 - Depends. I play Fed, so if your pledged Fed or in a Fed aligned squad on inara or otherwise known I am inclined to live and let live and likely do a friendly o7.

Now, if your an Imp or in an Imp aligned squadron I am likely to blow up first and ask questions later. Dead IMPs are the only good IMPs.

For non pledged CMDRs I tend to avoid acts of aggression unless there is a reason not to.

As for being careful, I never asked for elite to be any of those games nor did I ask for them to follow any models from such games. Though Star Citizen really isn't a game at this point and EvE is really just on life support. Both not great role models to be fair.

This is one zone only, Cyrodiil, events in there have absolutely no effect in the game world, even Imperial City was separated from anything that happens in this single zone.
Its like making SD an Open only PvP enabled environment but it has no effect on the galaxy at all.

O7

I see then intended message was unclear, let me be more precise shall we.

ESO (Elder Scrolls Online), a PvE game by in large, still gives content for those that choose or want to enage in PvP content by giving them control of the center of the map and to have constant battles for control of points in a constent tug of war (Power Play Concept)

ESO provided content for the PvP community to engage in and did not simply ignore them by in large to fend for themselves as ED has done for a rather large time. The idea was to demonstrate that a side of the community should not simply be cast aside because you do not like or due to your issues or disagreements.

I apologize for the point being less clear and you wanting to summarily disregard something you disagree with.

 

[Ettanin]

When did I ever say I wanted 'Gank Victims?' What I said was I want to restore a sense of competition to the game and to foster both the PvE and PvP side of the communities. As far as organic PvP being the same as CQC, literally just tells me you have never done PvP nor gotten involved with said community. But I am unsure where all this aggression is coming from. If the video offended you I am sorry for such, if a harmless video about people who practiced PvP with consent. Never thought it would be so contentious.

The only way to get more than to "shoot at anything that instances with you" is by forcing anyone to instance with you to get shot. It's how logic works.
Why would anyone get to the onus of taking part in PvP if it's optional anyway? The antonym to optional is mandatory, or more harshly, forced. There is no other way, no matter how little you deviate from optional. When it's no longer 100% optional, it's no longer 0% forced.

As soon as it no longer becomes optional, because of being part of the game itself, by virtue of it necessary for a reward, a badge, a rank, achievements, skins, ships, modules, whichever, it is effectively forced to be able to be on equal ground like everyone else.

If it offers anything that can be gotten by other means, either as the same item or a complete equivalent with no or negligible deviation, it will be optional and likely avoided because PvP as a means for grinding is never optimal.

PvP players are a minority in every game that isn't entirely focused around it. ED is not PvP focused.

Got it?

 

[Darrack]

I apologize for the point being less clear and you wanting to summarily disregard something you disagree with.

Nope i agree with you on ESO, a PvP zone was in the works from the start, i was one of the first to get my mits into Cyrodiil.
The point is PvP is entirely optional and does not effect the rest of the world.
I would be more than happy to see folks have a PvP environment in ED, but you have that in Open mode already, the issue is most folks don't want PvP.
What i object to is the PvP community wanting their play style to not only effect everyone else's but somehow think they are entitled to 'benefits' or penalise PVEers for playing in solo or PG.

As someone who reached the highest levels in PvP ESO i never once asked for the benefits i gained as Emperor to be transferred over to the PVE environment.
In my opinion ESO got PvP spot on and so does EDO, its just the reverse, a mirror of each game if you like.

O&

 

[darkbanefox]

The only way to get more than to "shoot at anything that instances with you" is by forcing anyone to instance with you to get shot. It's how logic works.
Why would anyone get to the onus of taking part in PvP if it's optional anyway? The antonym to optional is mandatory, or more harshly, forced. There is no other way, no matter how little you deviate from optional. When it's no longer 100% optional, it's no longer 0% forced.

As soon as it no longer becomes optional, because of being part of the game itself, by virtue of it necessary for a reward, a badge, a rank, achievements, skins, ships, modules, whichever, it is effectively forced to be able to be on equal ground like everyone else.

If it offers anything that can be gotten by other means, either as the same item or a complete equivalent with no or negligible deviation, it will be optional and likely avoided because PvP as a means for grinding is never optimal.

PvP players are a minority in every game that isn't entirely focused around it. ED is not PvP focused.

Got it?

Did I ask to get more to shoot and let alone to 'shoot at anything that instances with me.' You put quotations around a phrase that never came out of my mouth nor was typed by me into these here forums. I really am sorry that you hate people who practice PvP so much, want a hug? I would ask that you please stop trying to put words into my mouth though, its not really something I care to defend myself with nor engage with others who practice it.

As far as how to define optional, no one forces you or anyone else in the game to do any activity in the game. The game being a sandbox and its entirely up to you what you spend your time in the game doing. If you choose to do an activity that involves PvP that was your choice and not the choice of any other person.

I think in my prior posts I even stated to remove things such as the modules and weapons from power play (never should have been a thing honestly), thus removing any need or inclination from such activity for any benefit in any other activity in the game. The only purpose would be for bragging rights and for the competitive nature that Power Play creates. Nothing more, nothing less.

PvP players in every game... really should consider using absolutes in your statements less, doesn't look well on you.

Got Milk?

 

[Darrack]

As far as how to define optional, no one forces you or anyone else in the game to do any activity in the game. The game being a sandbox and its entirely up to you what you spend your time in the game doing. If you choose to do an activity that involves PvP that was your choice and not the choice of any other person.

In Open PvP isnt optional, if you go anywhere of note you will get ganked, its not consensual, hence why many avoid Open or like me switch to Solo for the high risk areas and CGs.

O7

 

[Ettanin]

As far as how to define optional, no one forces you or anyone else in the game to do any activity in the game. The game being a sandbox and its entirely up to you what you spend your time in the game doing. If you choose to do an activity that involves PvP that was your choice and not the choice of any other person.

You don't get it. If this activity becomes the exclusive means to obtain something specific, it is no longer optional. Besides, i quoted myself in that context.

I think in my prior posts I even stated to remove things such as the modules and weapons from power play (never should have been a thing honestly), thus removing any need or inclination from such activity for any benefit in any other activity in the game. The only purpose would be for bragging rights and for the competitive nature that Power Play creates. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yet PP does affect the galaxy by providing systems affected by it with specific effects. It PP was open only, a solo player wouldn't be able to fight back its effects. The mode parity is violated. The activity is forced.

Because FDev wants, or at least so far made it in this way, everything to be experiencable in every mode, an activity affecting the galaxy that forces any participation with other players in-instance is not possible.

 

[darkbanefox]

Nope i agree with you on ESO, a PvP zone was in the works from the start, i was one of the first to get my mits into Cyrodiil.
The point is PvP is entirely optional and does not effect the rest of the world.
I would be more than happy to see folks have a PvP environment in ED, but you have that in Open mode already, the issue is most folks don't want PvP.
What i object to is the PvP community wanting their play style to not only effect everyone else's but somehow think they are entitled to 'benefits' or penalise PVEers for playing in solo or PG.

As someone who reached the highest levels in PvP ESO i never once asked for the benefits i gained as Emperor to be transferred over to the PVE environment.
In my opinion ESO got PvP spot on and so does EDO, its just the reverse, a mirror of each game if you like.

O&

The PvP zone in elite being open, now we just need something to actually fight over... hmmm, what was that lead designer from long ago trying to do...

I would not ask for anyone to be forced into PvP unless they want to participate in the activity of Power Play (with modules removed). This creating something for the PvPers to fight for and encouraging work with PvE groups to handle BGS work.

Its a rather unique and rather appealing idea.

In Open PvP isnt optional, if you go anywhere of note you will get ganked, its not consensual, hence why many avoid Open or like me switch to Solo for the high risk areas and CGs.

O7

Open isn't required if only Power Play goes open, every other aspect of the game remains the same and even the modules that were once tied and removed could be gained via other means.

 

[Darrack]

Open isn't required if only Power Play goes open, every other aspect of the game remains the same and even the modules that were once tied and removed could be gained via other means.

But your missing the point and i can see this from a PvP perspective, PvP makes no sense in Power Play, its a waste of time.

O7

 

[Ettanin]

But your missing the point and i can see this from a PvP perspective, PvP makes no sense in Power Play, its a waste of time.

O7

Plus the overlook of PP having an effect on systems in all modes.

 

[Ettanin]

Proposal for a PvP activity cleanly separated from the trimodal galaxy.

A cluster rich in resources has been discovered by means of wormholes as there were no hyperdrive means to reach such location directly. It is unknown to which galaxy these wormholes connected, no bearings nor star formations gave any means of a completely clear reading.

As such, the three powers recruit CMDRs to secure the vast resources discovered within this aforementioned cluster of around 1,000 stars (or more, debatable).

Technical limitations/effects:
Since such a system makes instancing mandatory to work as intended, the cluster systems have to be hosted by dedicated servers with regional shards. This might make this feature a paid feature requiring a monthly subscription because it cannot be financed by skin sales. Furthermore, this system may require Odyssey to be playable because it effects both space and ground.

Suggested shard locations are:

• West Europe: Frankfurt, Amsterdam or Vienna
• East Europe: Warsaw, Kyiv, Moscow, Istanbul or Budapest
• East Asia: May require multiple shardings such as in Tokyo, Beijing, Hong Kong, Seoul or any of the major cities in Australia
• East USA: New York
• West USA: Los Angeles
• Latin America: Sao Paulo

Wormhole locations:

• Sol (Federation)
• Alioth (Alliance)
• Achenar (Empire)
• Shinrarta Dezhra (All factions, neutral ground)

To be able to enter the wormhole, the following requirements have to be met:

• Only combat-focused ships may enter. Your duty is of military nature.
• No cartography data, it will have to be turned in at a nearby station before entering the wormhole.
• No cargo, it will have to be sold at a station or stowed at a fleet carrier.
• No materials, neither foot nor space. They will be stowed away for your return to the Milky Way.
• You must pledge for a faction. You can change the pledge only once every two weeks.
• You must choose the shard you wish to be instanced in. You can change the shard once every two hours.

Effects of the wormhole:

• No rebuy necessary. You are financed fully by the faction you pledged towards. Respawning is possible within five minutes at the last docked station or at the wormhole entry point.
• If your ship isn't or is only partially engineered, you can engineer a copy of that ship fully, free of charge, for the purpose of its use within the cluster space. This is to ensure everyone stays on equal footing.
• If your suits and weapons aren't or are only partially engineered, you can engineer copies of them fully, free of charge, for the purpose of its use within the cluster space. This is to ensure everyone stays on equal footing.
• All ships have a x4 jump range at all times (20 LY becomes 80 LY).
• You cannot gather cargo nor materials within the cluster space.
• You cannot gather cartography data within the cluster space.
• If you leave the game intentionally or accidentially, you will still be instanced by the dedicated server for five more minutes and are subject to all effects that happened to you during the disconnection.

Activities:

• Escort duty missions (both space and ground); NPCs are unique and divided evenly among all regional shards
• Intercept missions (both space and ground); Hunt down hostile escorts
• Base building and maintaining (both space and ground); NPCs are unique and divided evenly among all regional shards
• CG-esque faction wide missions triggered by voting among all participants within each faction.
• More Missions to strengthen your own faction or to harm the other two.
• More PvP focused and world-building types of missions.

Effects on the outside world:
* None. What happens in this cluster stays in this cluster.

Rewards:

• Separate rank(s) or repurpose of the CQC rank because it is rewarded for combat against other players.
• No rewards that can be used outside of this cluster.

 

[terragrimtitan]

I think a significant group of players see Open = PVP (fight all you see) but actually more players in Open are mixed mode Coop & PVP.

It would be good if the game channeled PVP into meaningful activity. The random ganking of players with crimes on would be reduced by making in-game NPC law enforcers chase down serial gankers. (outside of anarchy systems and war zones). High-security systems should be high security, Shinrarta should be an anarchy system and crimes off remain for fun carrier tours etc..

 

[Riverside]

I think a significant group of players see Open = PVP (fight all you see) but actually more players in Open are mixed mode Coop & PVP.

It would be good if the game channeled PVP into meaningful activity. The random ganking of players with crimes on would be reduced by making in-game NPC law enforcers chase down serial gankers. (outside of anarchy systems and war zones). High-security systems should be high security, Shinrarta should be an anarchy system and crimes off remain for fun carrier tours etc..

I agree that some sort of meaning for PvP would significantly reduce the random attacks, and that NPC bounty hunters & police could be a lot more irritating to provide a distraction, even if that meant returning to a situation where PvP & PvE kills are treated differently again.

System security level doesn't mean much to PvP & I don't think changing it would make much difference to PvP, I think that's more of a PvE thing & more/tougher interdictions by either pirates/baddie NPCs (in low security) or police/military (in high security) would probably just lead to more PvE farming than any actual deterrent to random PvP. I don't think it would make much difference but you never know, might make a change from RES farming

 

[SioNKursk]

Yes, what does pvp pve have to do with it, I want to communicate in an online game and see other players in the game to interact with them both in pvp and in a pve game and that it would all cause great interest and not all this sad

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Yes, what does pvp pve have to do with it, I want to communicate in an online game and see other players in the game to interact with them both in pvp and in a pve game and that it would all cause great interest and not all this sad

You can do that by playing in Open.

Even if everyone in PG and Solo were suddenly pushed into Open, it wouldn't change much.

Those who don't want PvP would simply just avoid the hotspots.

 

[SioNKursk]

Well, then let's go, I'd rather really play a single Observation game with a more interesting plot

 

[varonica]

Well, then let's go, I'd rather really play a single observation game with a more interesting plot

So, go play in Open? Not sure what your point is, you already have everything you want!