"The path of least resistance"

[Aewarin Jameson]

Ideally you'd pick a group at character creation and that's the one your avatar will forever live in. You're a bored soloplayer and now want to join the 'All' MP group? Fine make a new avatar and start in Lave with 100 credits.

That's more segregation of the community.

The presumption here is that PvE is easier than PvP .. it's not - there can only be 31 players in your instance but hundreds of NPCs. Players are more likely to be kitted out differently and uniquely (as per Sandro's post) but ultimately there's a finite number of them - NPCs are reasonably unlimited.

If someone wants to play solo/group, and then join the all-pilot I have no issues.

 

[Andrew Sayers]

The part in green is not measurable by the software.

It also goes entirely against the pirate ethos of "raising the flag" and removing cargo without firing a shot. There is no longer the challenge of persuasion, your reputation proceeding you, guile or bullying - instead its now just a punch up.

You're also advocating people get blown up instead - that is illogical - An insurance company would rather pay for replacement goods than the cost of a ship.

Think of it this way - America has a famous policy "we don't negotiate with terrorists", which can create serious short-term pain and doesn't differentiate between kidnappers with high standards of professionalism vs. thugs mailing body parts home. But in the long-term, it's proven extremely effective at keeping the heat well away from its citizens. When you get closer to the fire though - say Britain during The Troubles or Israel today - that sort of grandstanding becomes unrealistic and you need a more pragmatic attitude to getting burned.

You're right that the above needs changing to handle legitimate piracy, but fundamentally I think persuasion, reputation, guile and bullying should be encouraged in the frontier and discouraged in the core, so everyone has somewhere to go.

Having said that, how about something more nuanced? Say Sol has super-harsh rules where you can fire all your missiles at a criminal on sight and claim them back on expenses (newbie-friendly); Lave has fair play where insurance only pays 50% the price of goods traded away to a legit pirate (melting pot); and there's no such thing as insurance if you get into an altercation in an uninhabited system (zone of maximum masculinity).

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Having said that, how about something more nuanced? Say Sol has super-harsh rules where you can fire all your missiles at a criminal on sight and claim them back on expenses (newbie-friendly); Lave has fair play where insurance only pays 50% the price of goods traded away to a legit pirate (melting pot); and there's no such thing as insurance if you get into an altercation in an uninhabited system (zone of maximum masculinity).

Let me be honest for a moment - Think about the real world:

If you go into the capital of any country and commit a crime within minutes the police will be there. Why ? Has a lot to do with where they are stationed. (Just up the road on the left )

If you commit a crime in the country the police will take minutes if not hours to respond - why ? Location of the police building; smaller force so they may already be responding to something else; etc.

If you are attacked then depending upon where you are relative to the home world (or even a series of major naval bases dotted in their territory) the response time varies from quick (think city) to slow (think country)

Now consider something else - Each country has it's own laws. In the UK you can have relations with people out of marriage; where I am you can't. Each place is different according to their principles and heritage.

Similarly then it would be consistent to have Sol react differently to Alpha Centauri if they belong to different factions & if they have differing governments, so I agree with you on that part

What would be ideal - dotted in the core systems are Anarchy worlds where I can feel at home and from there run skirmishes from time to time .. Just like Elite (Classic) had things Anarchy systems were dotted about and you had to make an informed decision to visit or not. Take the UK - there are hotspots of troubled areas which you wouldnt' visit alone at night, so why would it be any different in ED ? If we cause too much trouble the Navy may send a major task force to clean up.

 

[Fromhell]

Ideally you'd pick a group at character creation and that's the one your avatar will forever live in. You're a bored soloplayer and now want to join the 'All' MP group? Fine make a new avatar and start in Lave with 100 credits.

yep, an old proposal we once discussed - at least this would fix the group switch abuse possibilities in a solid way

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

yep, an old proposal we once discussed - at least this would fix the group switch abuse possibilities in a solid way

I personally am not bothered by such things.

Let me put it to you a different way : If someone was to play in a private group for a while, build up some credits, buy a nice ship, then hop into the all pilots group wouldn't that represent a much bigger challenge for you ? Once you have gained a foothold in the game and established yourself wouldn't you prefer real challenges rather than the fresh faced newbies that are struggling ? I know I would - and that's coming from a player who intends to play perma-death

 

[Barns]

yep, an old proposal we once discussed - at least this would fix the group switch abuse possibilities in a solid way

Absolutely! Let me play in a PvE-All galaxy forever and you play in your PvPvE-All and we'll never meet and you'll never have to suffer this "abuse" as you term it!

Basically, it's really simple, restated yet again because people seem to have forgotten the easy answer :

Make a PvE-All group. Any commander made here can never go into the PvPvE-All group (only into solo or private groups).

Nothing complicated or difficult about it and seems to solve all your PvP-related worries about PvErs getting twinked up in safemode before coming to shoot you up...

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

I would think a vanity item of some kind would be fair (unique decal for instance)

Also have a statistic on your commander sheet :

- Total time online
- % spent private (Solo / Group play)
- % spent public (All-pilots)

That's not enough imho.

If I'm getting my ass kicked by players who are earning fortunes in soloplay, coming over to MP, and using that wealth to blow me up time and again - me... a struggling trader plying my trade against real players in MP and not just scripted AI, I'd be inclined to group switch too and go solo when I'm skint just to level the playing field and give me a chance to recover losses.

The way I'd do it would be for the first week that I remain in the "All" group I get a unique to All-groupers shield generator.

2 full weeks of All play - I get a unique to "All" group missile launcher.

3 full weeks of All play nets me a unique to "All" group long range Hyperdrive.

This stuff is far better than what a soloplayer can get!

6 months of unbroken All play nets me a unique ship.

If at anytime I switch to solo or private play my timer resets.



I'm joking of course.

I like Fromhell's idea of rewarding players who take the risk but I think it'd upset a lot of people now. I still think finding a way to stop those of us who take a harder path from being exploited by those that don't (like switching groups all the time) is the way to go. Not sure how though.

The presumption here is that PvE is easier than PvP .. it's not - there can only be 31 players in your instance but hundreds of NPCs.

I've mentioned this before - it doesn't matter how hard you make the AI it'll never match the ingenuity, guile, and talent of a human player.

Lets not forget, PvP isn't just about combat. PvP comes in all guises. Its about competing for resources (if you're a miner) and possibly even competing against other players for trade runs. As an explorer is about competing against other explorers who could be surveying the same areas you are and racing back to stake a claim before you do. Do we know if NPC's will be doing those things too - I'm not sure. And if they are they won't be any better than an experienced human player who can adapt his strategies on a whim and learn new ways to get one over on his fellow players.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

That's how I'd hope it'd work too. The travel time from deployment to crime scene would depend on lots of different factors. For one thing players shouldn't be able to know the exact response time. Its that element of "shall I try and steal that last bit of loot or should I make a run for it now?" that gets the heart pounding and adds an extra layer of risk vs reward to the event.

In real life you have an idea but you don't know exactly how long you have - films play on this when they show criminals performing heists : 3 minutes then they're out of the crime scene.

As it is in real life so it should be in ED - you can judge roughly how long you have based upon your own reputation and position within the star system. That said there should always be a random element about it - the police could be passing by and "suddenly" appear; they could be responding to something else and take longer .. it adds to the drama!

Thinking about that - it would be interesting if FD could implement a response from the Navy that could, given the right circumstances, abort their pursuit of you in favour of a more juicy target if they happen into the star system at the same time

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Make a PvE-All group. Any commander made here can never go into the PvPvE-All group (only into solo or private groups).

I'd vote for that

 

[Andrew Sayers]

The way I'd do it would be for the first week that I remain in the "All" group I get a unique to All-groupers shield generator.

How would you stop people from building up tons of cash in an alternate account, then dropping the character into the all group and transferring the money to their main account?

This sort of scam can get fairly complex, shuffling money around with friends and arranging to get themselves pirated etc.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

I'm joking of course.

LOL .. you got me!

I still think finding a way to stop those of us who take a harder path from being exploited by those that don't (like switching groups all the time) is the way to go.

That's akin to myself complaining that some people will be playing 24/7 whilst I can only do weekends.

ETA: If people want to go into groups to be with their friends / solo / abuse the mechanics ... let them ... it makes no real difference long term and things have a way of evening themselves out. (Like Sandro said - spent a lot of time fighting AI and you end up with a good ship but no skills; spend a lot of time in all-pilots fighting players and you can take on ships above what you have!

Stop trying to balance everything because you can't .. just accept that sometimes things are not fair.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

How would you stop people from building up tons of cash in an alternate account, then dropping the character into the all group and transferring the money to their main account?

This sort of scam can get fairly complex, shuffling money around with friends and arranging to get themselves pirated etc.

I wasn't serious about that idea by the way But as far as I know we're limited to one character per account aren't we? If someone wants to pay £40 for a spare account to exploit virtual currency scams, let them. FD make more money!

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

I wasn't serious about that idea by the way But as far as I know we're limited to one character per account aren't we?

At least 2 for sure.

Possibly more - we await confirmation.

 

[ellay]

I've thought about this a bit , and actually I don't care what others do. People who cheat their way to the top, using glitches or whatever, are only fooling themselves at the end of the day.

I remember when I became Elite on my BBC, it was after hours and hours and hours of hard graft, and the feeling of achievement was immense.

After all these years I want that feeling again, and I'll work my way from the bottom to the top to do it. That's the point of the Elite Universe surely?

 

[Andrew Sayers]

I still think finding a way to stop those of us who take a harder path from being exploited by those that don't (like switching groups all the time) is the way to go. Not sure how though.

Question for yourself and Fromhell - there will be exactly one "Ironman" group. It will only accessible to other ironmen (no nipping off to solo groups, no joining it from elsewhere). Death will be permanent in this group, discouraging players who want an easy life from going near it. Does that interest you? Why/why not?

Edit: the above was based on a misreading of the groups proposal - thanks to jabokai for pointing out it will be possible to switch between private ironman groups and the main ironman group, just not between ironman and normal mode. This edit was added much later, so posts below this one were based on incorrect information.

 

[Cody]

At least 2 for sure.

<dons his dumb pilot's sombrero> Two characters per account? How would that work with commander names?

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Question for yourself and Fromhell - there will be exactly one "Ironman" group. It will only accessible to other ironmen (no nipping off to solo groups, no joining it from elsewhere). Death will be permanent in this group, discouraging players who want an easy life from going near it. Does that interest you? Why/why not?

Ironman doesn't interest me unless its full of 1000's of other players. I think it'll be a niche game-world and nowhere near as chaotic and interactive as the "All" group. I envision Ironmen will be quite diffuse and meeting one rarer than hens teeth . Its not for me. I want to feel part of a living breathing galaxy where I can meet 100's if not 1000's of different players. Yes I can only have 32 on screen at at time, but that doesn't detract from the endless possibilities that comes with playing amongst many other different players. I also only want to play in the game-world that actually has a bearing on how the galaxy as a whole evolves, and as far as I know the other groups don't have that influence - or at least not to the extent the "All" group will.

I suppose initially it won't matter too much since I plan to give exploring a try - which is probably the most lonely profession. But eventually I'll try other stuff like trading, prospecting and combat, And that's where I want as much real-player interaction as possible.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

<dons his dumb pilot's sombrero> Two characters per account? How would that work with commander names?

That's what I thought. Hopefully 1 character per account and please please please no alts!

 

[Fromhell]

Question for yourself and Fromhell - there will be exactly one "Ironman" group. It will only accessible to other ironmen (no nipping off to solo groups, no joining it from elsewhere). Death will be permanent in this group, discouraging players who want an easy life from going near it. Does that interest you? Why/why not?

The concept sounds great I'll definitely start in Ironman but I'm worried about a less populated playfield. I'd rather have every other player in the same universe. On the other hand mindboggling 400B systems, how does anyone even meet a real person in ED, in any game mode? We won't hang around hubs all the time I guess....

That's what I thought. Hopefully 1 character per account and please please please no alts!

also ^this

 

[Slawkenbergius]

That's what I thought. Hopefully 1 character per account and please please please no alts!

If someone wants to run an alt, there's no stopping them, so why force people who want to have a couple of commanders for role-play reasons to buy a new copy? It just seems like chiselling. I might want to have a Federation commander and an Empire commander... Playing Dark Souls at the moment, I've got a couple of different character builds that I'm trying out.

You almost certainly can't log-in the two characters simultaneously, so having them tied to the same account is preferable to multi-boxing. Plus, being a twitch game, it will probably be hard to run commanders simultaneously to do anything more useful than lug supplies around for you.