The Problem with Game Balance

[dekot]

Yes, and this is silly.

If a small ship is supposed to be viable fighting much larger and more powerful vessels, it should not be largely because it can achieve a significant fraction of their durability.

I'm all for nerfing the defensive meta but it needs to primarily target bigger ships unless small ships are significantly buffed in terms of agility and speed. A nerf to medium ship speed and agility would be preferable.

Increasing weight of hrps or moving defense to armor like the other poster is suggesting would disproportionately affect small ships.

 

[dekot]

Do you guys have a problem with reading comprehension, or are you just trolling because I say mean things about griefers?

Look, if it's the former, I apologise unreservedly. That must really suck.

If it's the latter, gg, you got me! [haha]

I've been playing in open since beta. Inevitably, it follows that I've spent that time in PvP! Dekot, I'm not keen on just throwing my hand in and playing exclusively in solo. It's a good mode when you just can't be bothered with other people, but CGs and organised events are a great craic, I'm not willing to turn my back on them.

I'm a regular player of most types of PvP*, so no, that's not something I want to avoid, either.

I've already stated I'm almost exclusively engineering in my game time these days.

And Alwayslate, I'm hardly a 'casual PvEer'. I'm time constrained, not new or inexperienced. Prior to engineering it didn't really matter, the game rewarded insight into game mechanics and effective tactics, rather than twitch reflexes and the latest meta build. Now engineering has made legacy ships obsolete it doesn't really matter how good someone in a standard ship is, they can't compensate for the stupidly overpowered abilities of engineered builds.

Fellas, you're replying to things I didn't write. I'm dripping about being forced into wasting valuable game time grinding out engineering mats, rather than enjoying actually flying my toy spaceship and partaking in the multitude of activities we have to enjoy in the game, not about whatever you think I wrote.

*No powerplay. Lots of reasons...

Engineering has had a lot of changes and each change made it easier and faster. I don't think anyone actually likes engineering, whether the process itself or the end result it has on game balance but it's here to stay.

And it's very possible to collect materials as a byproduct of regular gameplay, focusing first on the ones that let you survive and then moving on to the upgrades that make you competitive.

 

[Alwayslate]

Do you guys have a problem with reading comprehension, or are you just trolling because I say mean things about griefers?

Look, if it's the former, I apologise unreservedly. That must really suck.

If it's the latter, gg, you got me! [haha]

I've been playing in open since beta. Inevitably, it follows that I've spent that time in PvP! Dekot, I'm not keen on just throwing my hand in and playing exclusively in solo. It's a good mode when you just can't be bothered with other people, but CGs and organised events are a great craic, I'm not willing to turn my back on them.

I'm a regular player of most types of PvP*, so no, that's not something I want to avoid, either.

I've already stated I'm almost exclusively engineering in my game time these days.

And Alwayslate, I'm hardly a 'casual PvEer'. I'm time constrained, not new or inexperienced. Prior to engineering it didn't really matter, the game rewarded insight into game mechanics and effective tactics, rather than twitch reflexes and the latest meta build. Now engineering has made legacy ships obsolete it doesn't really matter how good someone in a standard ship is, they can't compensate for the stupidly overpowered abilities of engineered builds.

Fellas, you're replying to things I didn't write. I'm dripping about being forced into wasting valuable game time grinding out engineering mats, rather than enjoying actually flying my toy spaceship and partaking in the multitude of activities we have to enjoy in the game, not about whatever you think I wrote.

*No powerplay. Lots of reasons...

I didn't think you were talking about a general situation because you used my and I many times. I was talking about a general situation as well.

Does engineering matter? Of course. But there are already a gap between a stock ship and a standard (by which I assume you mean A rated) ship. Powercreep, if that's as you stated, already exists, just in another form, engineering being unrelated.

 

[deleteduser]

It reduces the gap for griefers running meta ships.

This will make it easier to beat a pvp meta boi. So it certainly won’t make griefing easier.

The plan is to make pve and non meta builds a viable fighter by making the apex predator weaker and not really affecting anything else

Powderpanic
The Voice of Griefing

Reducing the gap by lowering the ceiling will certainly lead to a more balanced PvP experience, and the opportunity for skilled piloting to overcome a compromised build however, assuming that a [PvE]/[PvP] split has taken place, and everyone you're going to interact with is at least 'PvP aware':

There are a number of different types of PvP situation to consider including...

Trader/Explorer v Pirate
Trader/Explorer v Meta
Pirate v Pirate
Pirate v Meta
Meta V Meta

...and the potential Wing variations of each of the above. i.e Wing=4Pirates Vs Wing=1Trader+3meta-escort.

While they are currently rare, the PvP based game that E: D should be post-split (i.e lots of PvP focused player groups) should make trader+escort wings more viable and more prevalent, necessary even, giving the Wing of Pirates a lot more to think about when picking targets.

However, in order to achieve a 'balance', the developer has to assume an equal level of pilot skill when designing ships & loadouts, and they have to assume a 1v1 encounter.

Take a T9, G5 engineered but rigged for cargo, so 8A Reinf/HiCap Prismatics, x3 A-rated HD/HiCap + 1 Thm/HiCap G5 SBs, everything else maxed for Haulage. Pilot Skill = 100.

Introduce meta-boi, Pilot Skill = 100.

This shouldn't be a battle. Even a High-Wake should be a seat of the pants, skin of your teeth, get everything right and hope there's no technical issues when you get interdicted, type of affair. If the T9 can't or wont escape due to Grom bombs or wanting to fight it out, it should be debris in very short order.

Only when you start introducing combat ready escorts should the T9 stand a better than 1-100 chance of making it to their destination in one piece.

This 1v1 encounter should be so one-sided in fact, that the meta pilot's skill should be almost inconsequential. Meta has and should have the DPS, HP and the Spd/Mnv to overcome 70/80/90% of its pilot short-comings.

 

[Duc_Mallard]

Personally I like the imbalance.
I like being able to bully and destroy paper exploration vessels. This I think is the great achievement of ED, that you have people playing doctors and nurses and people playing cops and robbers in the same sandpit. And just like in the playground, there are tears

 

[deleteduser]

Personally I like the imbalance.
I like being able to bully and destroy paper exploration vessels. This I think is the great achievement of ED, that you have people playing doctors and nurses and people playing cops and robbers in the same sandpit. And just like in the playground, there are tears

This is about 80% of my thoughts, but that other 20% has to be taken into account. I tried to pirate a CMDR at a CG a few weeks ago, who's response to my hails was "leave me alone". They dropped no cargo, deployed no weapons and even failed to acknowledge that they were playing a game where deep space robbery was a very real, ever present possibility. A brief explosion followed shortly thereafter. I haven't seen this CMDR since, presumably they went [Solo]. I can't help feeling this CMDR, and many others besides, is playing the wrong game; it's not a 'trade, explore and get rich' simulator, it's a 'fight for your life in space' arcade game with the occasional interesting view thrown into the mix.

One of these two descriptions has to be wrong, and it doesn't really matter which.

However, [Modes] allow these 2 differing mindsets to co-exist in the same game, by creating 2 different rule-sets, both offering the same rewards even though progress (defined to one's personal taste), is objectively easier under one rule-set than it is under the other. The consequence is what you see in this forum, endless threads about the need for 'balancing' (ships and C&P) as a direct result of that broken mechanic. Besides 'balancing' threads, we have (accurate) 'broken BGS/PP' threads; engagement with the game's narrative is pointless and obsolete whilst characters are able to exploit the shadows that [Modes] provides, with impunity.

This dissonance would have broken any other MMO-RPG. The only thing saving E: D so far is that its biggest bug was a deliberate design decision, and sold as a feature.

 

[00nutzy]

This is about 80% of my thoughts, but that other 20% has to be taken into account. I tried to pirate a CMDR at a CG a few weeks ago, who's response to my hails was "leave me alone". They dropped no cargo, deployed no weapons and even failed to acknowledge that they were playing a game where deep space robbery was a very real, ever present possibility. A brief explosion followed shortly thereafter. I haven't seen this CMDR since, presumably they went [Solo]. I can't help feeling this CMDR, and many others besides, is playing the wrong game; it's not a 'trade, explore and get rich' simulator, it's a 'fight for your life in space' arcade game with the occasional interesting view thrown into the mix.

One of these two descriptions has to be wrong, and it doesn't really matter which.

However, [Modes] allow these 2 differing mindsets to co-exist in the same game, by creating 2 different rule-sets, both offering the same rewards even though progress (defined to one's personal taste), is objectively easier under one rule-set than it is under the other. The consequence is what you see in this forum, endless threads about the need for 'balancing' (ships and C&P) as a direct result of that broken mechanic. Besides 'balancing' threads, we have (accurate) 'broken BGS/PP' threads; engagement with the game's narrative is pointless and obsolete whilst characters are able to exploit the shadows that [Modes] provides, with impunity.

This dissonance would have broken any other MMO-RPG. The only thing saving E: D so far is that its biggest bug was a deliberate design decision, and sold as a feature.

What is interestingly is that design decision allowed the game to have a much wider audience and is at least partially responsible for the game to be made. That is often forgotten.
Because the game allows such different playstyles people view the game differently, no view is more right than the other but (maybe its ego?) but some people dont think the others are playing correctly and people get toxic about it rather than dealing with it or moving on. Some actually move on but stay in the forums just to complain.

Its simple, the game is a mmo because everyone gets to influence the game universe regardless of play style platform region and time zone. Thats the major focus, the PvP wings and multicrew add to that but its the everyone affects the game part that makes it an MMO, at least in my opinion others obviously dont agree.

The idea to split the BGS into two (or more) modes ala a PvP one and a PvE one has been suggested many many times before, nothing ever comes of it from FDev and long after this thread closes it will keep coming up. That being said this one is just another in the line, nothing wrong with that.

Its simple to ask for what you want and put forth your reasons, its also normal to get opposition to your request.

Its all good, try not to be a berk and lower yourself to name calling and toxicity (this applies to everyone not just to your thread or you). It is easy to get caught up though so its a good idea to allow for some wiggle room.

 

[deleteduser]

What is interestingly is that design decision allowed the game to have a much wider audience and is at least partially responsible for the game to be made. That is often forgotten.

It isn't forgotten, it's specifically referenced in OP as being the root cause of the problem. The 'noble intention' to create a widely accessible game that caters to everyone, created a broken game that doesn't really cater to anyone.

It didn't allow the game to achieve a wider audience, it strictly limited the audience to those who were willing to put up with a massive flaw that led to massively imbalanced gameplay.

Because the game allows such different playstyles people view the game differently, no view is more right than the other but...

The view that the gameplay is unbalanced by design is correct. It is definitely, and provably the correct view.

 

[AlaricVonDrago]

As for all this small vs large ships, durability/surviving and such in pvp..... I'll never understand why there isn't an evade rating for smaller ships.

Kind of the opposite of the jitter effect on some weapon mods. You just miss them at some % of the time. Seems reasonable to me, anyhow =)

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

This feels awful familiar.

Give the lawfuls a bounty scanner.

Put in instances where supertuned G5 NPC's spawn. Either specific USS' or during missions, or just for the hell of it if the player has high combat rank.

And give us a 200% base increase in ammunition.

Big ships should not be able to drain ships of ammo if the pilot is more skilled than them.

Death to hitpoint overinflation!

(Also reducing the damage penalties taken on smaller hardpoint vs hull hardness woul result in smaller ships becoming a little more viable and most likely more common. Thus resulting in cheaper rebuys and less salt. Some of you must remember when the Viper 3 actually was the best combat ship with little to no content)

 

[Mohrgan]

Everyone should have known what they were getting when they bought the game. I sure did. The Modes are a big reason why I got involved with E|D. All that is needed is for peeps to play their game, and let others do the same.

Every time you boot E|D up, you (everyone) is consenting to sharing a single galaxy, with three mode of access. What's hard about this concept? You bought the game. PvP does not rise to such importance that one player's choice to PvP, should have any effect on another player.

The issue with the shared galaxy simply comes down to intolerance. The game was designed from the get go include many play styles. What brings people to believe that their choice of play should even be noticed, let alone interfere with my ability to choose? I don't know why we Commanders can't just enjoy what we may like in E|D, and let others do the same?

Every player has equal access to all of E|D's game mechanics. If you feel there is an advantage to be had in Solo, take it. Just as you would through outfitting or engineering. Don't expect me, or any other player, to alter our interests for another Commander's interests.

 

[deleteduser]

The game was designed from the get go include many play styles. What brings people to believe that their choice of play should even be noticed, let alone interfere with my ability to choose? I don't know why we Commanders can't just enjoy what we may like in E|D, and let others do the same?
...
If you feel there is an advantage to be had in Solo, take it. Just as you would through outfitting or engineering. Don't expect me, or any other player, to alter our interests for another Commander's interests.

The shared galaxy combined with a player's choice of multiple [Modes] creates an imbalance in gameplay where one player in Solo can achieve the same level of progress as a player in Open, without facing the same level of risk. In a shared galaxy, a player's choice of mode is heavily influenced, interfered with, by other CMDRs and their choices. In a shared galaxy it can't be otherwise.

The ability for a player to 'choose' this state of affairs is the problem. The decision by FDev to include and promote this choice as a 'feature', is the problem. The result of the deliberate imbalance...

CMDRs forced into isolated or insecure communities
CMDRs hiding out after a murder spree
CMDRs manipulating BGS/PP unopposed

... among others listed in OP, is the problem.

None of the actual features of the game can work correctly until this one is removed; Why is BGS/PP so under utilised, are NPCs to spongey, is new player hand-holding too stand-offish, is the grind too grindy, is C&P too lenient, are ships too unbalanced?

These questions represent a large portion, probably a majority of forum posts in one variation of another, and they are all valid questions. None of which can be answered with any finality until the 'choice' of [Mode] flaw has been fixed. We could just accept the imbalanced gameplay, but the frequency of posts pointing out and asking about problems directly related to it, suggest that we wont. I don't think we should. Broken is broken, and broken should be fixed.

What I am suggesting as a solution doesn't ask for you, or (almost) anyone else to alter your interests. PvP'ers wont have to change, PvE'ers wont have to change. BGS/PP players who want to operate unopposed won't have to change. Explorers/Traders currently operating in [Mode] to avoid PvP, won't have to change.

What OP asks for, is for the PvE'er & the PvP'er to be granted equal risk:reward ratios. That's it. And in doing so the only people who will find a difference to the game they play, will be those CMDRs currently hiding out in [Mode] after a crime spree. Emergent C&P will be a viable playstyle.

 

[Mohrgan]

The shared galaxy combined with a player's choice of multiple [Modes] creates an imbalance in gameplay where one player in Solo can achieve the same level of progress as a player in Open, without facing the same level of risk. In a shared galaxy, a player's choice of mode is heavily influenced, interfered with, by other CMDRs and their choices. In a shared galaxy it can't be otherwise.

The ability for a player to 'choose' this state of affairs is the problem. The decision by FDev to include and promote this choice as a 'feature', is the problem. The result of the deliberate imbalance...

CMDRs hiding out after a murder spree
CMDRs manipulating BGS/PP unopposed

... among others listed in OP, is the problem.

None of the actual features of the game can work correctly until this one is removed; are NPCs to spongey, new player hand-holding too stand-offish, the grind too grindy, C&P too lenient, ships too unbalanced?

These questions represent a large portion, probably a majority of forum posts in one variation of another, and they are all valid questions. None of which can be answered with any finality until the 'choice' of [Mode] flaw has been fixed. We could just accept the imbalanced gameplay, but the frequency of posts pointing out and asking about problems directly related to it, suggest that we wont. I don't think we should. Broken is broken, and broken should be fixed.

Play in Solo if you think there is an advantage. Every player has equal access.

There is no problem with the game as offered and advertised. I don't accept that your, or anyone's, choice of playing in open, should impact my choices. You knew what you were buying.

It's some unsupported insistence on the part of some players that is the problem, not the design of the game. Play how you want to play. Gank and Seal-club to your hearts content. I have no problem with that, but don't expect me to be involved. Just accept that the issues are player made. An inability to abide.

Play and let play. We're all adults here, right?

 

[deleteduser]

There is no problem with the game as offered and advertised. I don't accept that your, or anyone's, choice of playing in open, should impact my choices. You knew what you were buying.

A priori knowledge doen't preclude anyone from pointing out the flaws, and offering solutions to them. The solution offered here has the rather distinct feature as far as offered solutions go, in that it doesn't break anyone else's game.

Whether one accepts it or not, in a shared galaxy choices made by players have a direct effect on other players' games. E: D's BGS and PP were designed specifically to accomplish this. Further than that, the fact that some players operate in Open does impact directly on the choice of [Mode] that other players make. This is a result of the current situation, not the result of the solution offered in the OP.

 

[Mohrgan]

A priori knowledge doen't preclude anyone from pointing out the flaws, and offering solutions to them. The solution offered here has the rather distinct feature as far as offered solutions go, in that it doesn't break anyone else's game.

Whether one accepts it or not, in a shared galaxy choices made by players have a direct effect on other players' games. E: D's BGS and PP were designed specifically to accomplish this. Further than that, the fact that some players operate in Open does impact directly on the choice of [Mode] that other players make. This is a result of the current situation, not the result of the solution offered in the OP.

Yeah, it does. You (this actually means any and everyone) had all the data. You still chose to buy the game. This is not something that just happened to you. You bought that.

The only problem that needs solving is the angst over what other players are doing. Anything I do in a PG, anyone can counter from any mode. The game only has PvE tasks. To insist PvP should determine anything is to miss the developers intentions.

I'm not in favor of these ideas because a) It will never happen, b) it's unnecessary, we just need to grow up, and c) it would be an entire waste of resources. PvP is just not that important.

 

[deleteduser]

The entire game is based around PvP, it's incredibly important.

Undermining a player faction's home system or their Power's control systems, are inherently PvP activities; CMDR vs CMDR tasks. Even operating from [Mode], one player is pitting themselves against other players. You recognise this, but far from being able to counter everything you do in a [Mode], I am not even able to see your presence in a given system until the BGS ticks, by which time you've had a 24 hour headstart and have quite possibly already achieved your objective.

Even the 99.9% of the galaxy free from any sign of humanity, is still a PvP arena. The weapons of choice here are ADS and FSS, instead of gimblaled MCs and Packhounds, and the prize for victory is the coveted '1st Discovered by...' tag.
Miners are subject to asteroid persistence, and depletion by other CMDRs.
Trade profits are dependent on station prices, which are dependent on faction & system states manipulated by the actions of other CMDRs.

It's PvP all the way down.

 

[Mohrgan]

The entire game is based around PvP, it's incredibly important.

Undermining a player faction's home system or their Power's control systems, are inherently PvP activities; CMDR vs CMDR tasks. Even operating from [Mode], one player is pitting themselves against other players. You recognise this, but far from being able to counter everything you do in a [Mode], I am not even able to see your presence in a given system until the BGS ticks, by which time you've had a 24 hour headstart and have quite possibly already achieved your objective.

Even the 99.9% of the galaxy free from any sign of humanity, is still a PvP arena. The weapons of choice here are ADS and FSS, instead of gimblaled MCs and Packhounds, and the prize for victory is the coveted '1st Discovered by...' tag.
Miners are subject to asteroid persistence, and depletion by other CMDRs.
Trade profits are dependent on station prices, which are dependent on faction & system states manipulated by the actions of other CMDRs.

It's PvP all the way down.

An attempt to redefine PvP. I'm going to stick with the classic definition: A player character directly fighting another player character. The rest of what you describe is the game. What we do with our ships. You're trying to move the goal posts.

Nothing requires a player to engage another player in order to influence the game's mechanics. PvP is the extra stuff. And, if you dig it, you should do it. A fundamental feature of this game, since before it's release, has been the modes. I'll wager just many players bought the game for the modes, as did for PvP.

We just need to realize how the game works, and take from it what we enjoy, then let others do the same. This whole thing is a player problem, not a game problem.

 

[00nutzy]

It isn't forgotten, it's specifically referenced in OP as being the root cause of the problem. The 'noble intention' to create a widely accessible game that caters to everyone, created a broken game that doesn't really cater to anyone.

It didn't allow the game to achieve a wider audience, it strictly limited the audience to those who were willing to put up with a massive flaw that led to massively imbalanced gameplay.



The view that the gameplay is unbalanced by design is correct. It is definitely, and provably the correct view.

Sorry DV but I think you place way too much importance in yourself.
The game is for a wider audience than your (and your friends) play style. The majority of players enjoy the game and its modes. It was with those modes in mind that many (probably as many or more than) bought the game.

The root problem is people thought the game was somthing it wasnt even though its clear in the advertising that it had modes, and that even if you played alone you would be able to influence the game.

The only imbalance in the game is with the ships and some builds.

The game has combat, both npc and pc but its not primarily a PvP any more than it is primarily a space mining game.

There is provably no right way to play the game per the designer himself.

Your views are simply your views they are no more correct than anyone elses.

What you see as a massive flaw others see as a feature.

So we will just have to disagree on weather the modes are a feature or a flaw.

 

[Sup3rfluiD]

I'm hoping the "new age" is a standalone single player offline pve mode.
And a totally integrated Open mode .

That way everyone that wants zero risk gets zero impact on the Open galaxy.
They can naff off and stop crying every time some pixels get scattered.

As for pg's I think they are a bandaid mechanic that could be removed if the game actually came with an included set of activity guidelines and the in game risk/reward: crime/consequences to framework it.

When you buy this game you are inevitably swayed by the marketing image of " blaze your own trail".
The minute that freedom of expression is negative all he'll breaks loose and those effected squeal for change.

This whole divide is just ridiculous.

 

[deleteduser]

An attempt to redefine PvP. I'm going to stick with the classic definition: A player character directly fighting another player character. The rest of what you describe is the game. What we do with our ships. You're trying to move the goal posts.
Nothing requires a player to engage another player in order to influence the game's mechanics. PvP is the extra stuff. And, if you dig it, you should do it. A fundamental feature of this game, since before it's release, has been the modes. I'll wager just many players bought the game for the modes, as did for PvP.

I'm not redefiing it, just pointing out that PvP is much broader than the narrow definition offered. Most of this game is PvP and the only way to avoid activities that affect other players' game mechanics, is not moving from your starter system docking pad. Everything from that point onwards has an effect on every one else.

Regardless of whether people bought the game for [Mode], I'd suggest everyone bought it because it was the only game of its type on the market, the imbalanced gameplay that [Mode] creates, isn't nullified.