PvP The PvE <-> PvP Rift

[IndigoWyrd]

The guld of difference between PvE and PvP is quite possibly the biggest factor preventing this game from achieving any amount of balance in the realm of combat. This has been an issue since before horizons, but the massive increase in power afforded by engineering, without a similar increase in power in NPCs, has changed a gap into a chasm. PvE became all about "farming" as many vastly technically inferior ships as quickly as possible, while PvP remained all about killing one (or a very small number of) ship(s). What this leads to is people basically playing two different games. What might seem fine for one person will seem like a mess to another, and vice versa. Mechanics that are of great importance to one person, may be completely irrelevant mysteries to another. Beyond the obvious challenge of balancing things to work in two vastly different environments, this huge gap also drives a wedge into the community. It all comes down to "PvE players vs. PvP players" in discussions, with ridiculous things like someone accusing someone else of being one or the other. It shouldn't be like that. It should just be people discussing COMBAT, not one type or the other, or which one is "better" than the other.

It doesn't need to be like this. If frontier would make a concerted effort to make top-ranking NPCs as close to fully optimized PvP fit ships as possible (and scale all other ranks evenly between that, and "harmless" NPCs remaining like they are), this division could go a way. Yes it would be a mess at first. Yes payouts would need to be adjusted, and cr/hr would be thrown into flux again. But guess what? That's because things are currently not in a good place. This craziness would be a pain, but it would get everyone on the same page. Real productive discussions could take place, with everyone now facing the same challenges and dealing with the same mechanics. Talks could change from "PvP vs. PvE", and instead become, "How can we make the game better?" Will this ever happen? I'm not sure. I tend to be doubtful. FDev has proven themselves to be quite hesitant to upset a given apple, much less the whole apple cart. I can hope, though, and we can all encourage them to take the hard steps that need to be taken.

I know this is (more than) a bit of a rant. I'm just exasperated. I'm tired of all the bickering, and I'm tired of myself and others needing to defend themselves, instead of their ideas. I plan on taking a leave from the forums for an indefinite amount of time. I fully intend to keep playing the game as I enjoy it (despite it's increasingly large amount of unrealized potential). If you feel like chatting, feel free to hit me up there (CMDR Frenotx). I may also still post videos to my youtube channel, since that's kinda fun to do. I need to disengage from the forums for a while, though. It's just too blasted frustrating and disappointing. So celebrate, I guess. You chased off another dirty "PvP player" trying to ruin the game.

I completely get taking a break from the forums - they can wear you down twice as fast as trying to look for Pharm Isolators.

But to be brief and honest, there is no reconciling the differences between PvE and PvP players and there really is only one solution: Dedicated PvE and PvP modes.

Those who want to PvP want to PvP with other people who want to PvP. They will often inflict themselves on those who want to PvE and we know what happens there.
Those who want to PvE do not want to be fired on by other commanders, and to that end, they have formed some of the largest Private Groups in the game. Of course, this only helps, as there those from that PvP side of things who insist on joining those Private Groups and inflicting themselves on others, and this, more than anything Frontier has or will ever do, has pushed that gap, that chasm, that infinite void between these play styles into something that, frankly, will never be bridged.

Myself, I do not engage in PvP play. I find it boring. I'm not going to explain myself as to why, it just is boring to me.
But I do understand that there are people who do enjoy it, and should be able to enjoy it.

But only clearly labeled, and separate modes of play will ever accomplish this, as these two play styles are incompatible by their nature.

On the subject of NPC's... No amount of optimizing will ever bring them in line, and none should be done. NPC's are PvE elements, not PvP, unless somehow someone is able to take control of NPC's. You just can't PvP and NPC.

 

[gribley]

You must be new he*checks profile*re... yeah.

Point is Frontier has squandered an absolute crapload of time trying to get their Elite-skinned arcade game to work multiplayer and with direct PvP.

If they had instead focused on making it a cooperative PvE-based game rather than frittering away months/years of development time trying to force a previously-single-player concept to be some sort of jolly multi-player experience and failing to try to get PvE activities to intermix happily with direct PvP activities, which obviously does not work, then this thread and others like it would not have existed, and perhaps the game would be even further ahead in terms of content, storyline, etc.

Instead, we have this utter mess which I hardly even load up any more because, frankly, the whole thing has turned sour on me.

And when pvprs then invade the forums whining about how empty open is, the usual call goes to frontier to nerf the modes themselves. So pvprs send ye to solo, then demand solo players git gud and come back to open...then tell players to go back to solo...then demand frontier nerf solo...

And yet ye have the gall to tell others their pain is self inflicted...is that what they say? Inspiring stuff but sadly, pvp players do not own open and can only advise, not demand. If ye make demands, then thats arrogance and arrogance begets arrogance right back which means its self inflicted alright...on the very community compalining about how open is a ghost town.

Which is a cool way of saying yer more a part of the problem thatn the solution but thats cool...cos its not my problem, its yours ^

To be honest i just want pve players to go to solo or mobius now.

They blow up too easily and while it was once funny the salt is starting to get annoying.

We all know that they wont be gitting gud, it takes thousands of hours. And open play is not that empty, we have the pvp hub and CG's to blow people up in. Im definately never starved if targets personally.

If you dont want to get shot at go to mobius or solo. Click open you consent to the possability of meeting a pvper, you consent to that danger and eaither you are competent enough to survive or you were not.

The rebuy is self inflicted and the outrage and personal offence that people feel when killed in a video game is getting pretty creepy at this point. I think open play will survive a few less squishy targets thank you, its not like they were going to so anything other than blow up after 2 volleys anyway.

 

[Martind Forlon]

Some nice ideas in this thread, myself like this about make high-ranked NPCs better. Encounter with "elite" NPC should be challenging (it was already in the game, so it for sure is possible). I think FDev are slowly going there with wing combat missions.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Heck, go to mobius if you want scocial pve.
Your problem is self inflicted

Which would be fine, except when PvP players insist on joining and inflicting themselves on others. Unless this is made a life-time ban offence from all modes except solo, they've been doing this since the first Private Groups and will continue to do so until such an action is taken.

 

[verminstar]

To be honest i just want pve players to go to solo or mobius now.

They blow up too easily and while it was once funny the salt is starting to get annoying.

We all know that they wont be gitting gud, it takes thousands of hours. And open play is not that empty, we have the pvp hub and CG's to blow people up in. Im definately never starved if targets personally.

If you dont want to get shot at go to mobius or solo. Click open you consent to the possability of meeting a pvper, you consent to that danger and eaither you are competent enough to survive or you were not.

The rebuy is self inflicted and the outrage and personal offence that people feel when killed in a video game is getting pretty creepy at this point. I think open play will survive a few less squishy targets thank you, its not like they were going to so anything other than blow up after 2 volleys anyway.

I dont really care whay ye want...what ye gonna do about it? Nothing...cos theres nothing ye can do only whine about the fact. Maybe tell everyone how easily they pop to yer uber weapons...that might help...doubtful though and I think of that as trolling quite literally to garner a negative reaction. Yer like newly washed windows...transparent and predictable ^

 

[[VR] Dr Gentech]

Totally agree with this. In almost any game I've ever payed where there was a co-existence of pve and pvp, some! elements of the PvP side used the PvE side as fodder and lolz. This does nothing but taint the entire PvP side with nastiness.

In relation to the OP: The problem is one of game ethos; This one, to use pvp parlance, is mostly a carebear one, with pvp tacked on. Not with-standing the fact that the pvp side were found out to be cheating (with the help of Fdev) and shouting 'git gud' through their laughter, has left the PvE side holding not much of anything but contempt for PvP.

Adding any kind of new uber NPC will have a negative effect rather than the one you mention. If players want to farm NPCs they'll go where it suits them to do so. Some do it in low-res, High-res, Haz-Rez or combat zone. The problem demographic here is not the PvE players, but FDev themselves. FDev allowed PvP players free reign to do what they wanted. They helped them cheat and gave them freedom to kill PvE players with zero accountability. And the PvP players took full advantage.

I have the utmost respect for real PvP players, who play the game and their character in the spirit it was meant. Using your video as an example, we saw 3 ships versus 1. From what I saw, you were annoyed that all 3 of you were out played and out matched. You actually waked out in a huff. Then you used it as some insane example of how reverse thrust was the problem. What I saw was a bigger, better ship and better PvP player taking on 3 pilots with at least one of them (you) also using reverse thrust. Every time the 3 of you managed to get a ring of shields down, he managed to get them back. That's how it is on big ships. I don't know for sure, but your 'victim' looked like a capable PvP player, who was simply better equipped and better abled, to deal with 3 small ships who ganged up on him.

In 2 separate occasions in that video you sat on his backside pouring all you could into his shields and you did zippo damage. I'm no PvP expert, but I fail to see what your gripe is. You were in a small ship, he was in a Cutter with great shields and he knew how to use them. You should never be able to take down a ship like that, unless you have the ship capabilities and fire-power to do so.

How, adding uber NPCs will fix that is beyond me.

Caveat; I understand I'm not a PvP player, so I am seriously open to be educated about this if I said anything wrong.

<o

What happened with PvP players cheating? I'm new to the game but I heard something about that

 

[IndigoWyrd]

We all know that they wont be gitting gud, it takes thousands of hours. And open play is not that empty, we have the pvp hub and CG's to blow people up in. Im definately never starved if targets personally.

If you dont want to get shot at go to mobius or solo. Click open you consent to the possability of meeting a pvper, you consent to that danger and eaither you are competent enough to survive or you were not.

The rebuy is self inflicted and the outrage and personal offence that people feel when killed in a video game is getting pretty creepy at this point. I think open play will survive a few less squishy targets thank you, its not like they were going to so anything other than blow up after 2 volleys anyway.

First, I have to say, I cannot and will not regard anyone who intentionally misspells words because they think it's cool. It's not, it's pure stupidity. It will never be cool.

Now with that out of the way, I have this vision of how this particular attitude appears:

7600 km outside of a station, just outside the no-fire zone, sits a massively armed and armored ship. As a new pilot attempts to emerge from the station, the warship fires a fully volley, destroying the other ship, and sending out a message: "You suck, practice more." Not once, not twice, but over and over and over. No one will ever improve from this. Telling someone to improve while destroying them before they even have a chance does nothing for them, and nothing for the attacker, except frustrate one player and make the other look like a complete tool in the eyes of every sane person on the planet.

And as I have said repeatedly, those who do not wish to engage in PvP have gone to Private Groups, but what is the PvP community doing to police those who insist on "invading" those private groups to inflict themselves on those there? Aside from nothing and laughing about it?

 

[verminstar]

What happened with PvP players cheating? I'm new to the game but I heard something about that

They lost some modules...in other words not that much happened...which means one would feel a lot less judgemental about clogging. Frontier showed great favour to pvprs, cant exactly go nuts over clogging anymore because that would be an unbalanced response that favours one playstyle over another.

Probably best described as an own goal that one...fer reasons that arent that clear in the short term ^

 

[gribley]

I dont really care whay ye want...what ye gonna do about it? Nothing...cos theres nothing ye can do only whine about the fact. Maybe tell everyone how easily they pop to yer uber weapons...that might help...doubtful though and I think of that as trolling quite literally to garner a negative reaction. Yer like newly washed windows...transparent and predictable ^

No really. Im not some snarling monster. Im a university student who plays pvp games to have fun when the day us done.

The salt was once funny, but now its just gone overboard. It less annoyance for me, and less rebuys for them if people accept that open will likely get you sent to rebuy.

And as for "what am i gunna do" well lol.
You are asking me what i will do to make pve players go to solo for their own good. Ummm maybe i can pvp them??? That might be an effective techneque perhaps.

Ultimately its not nice to realise that some players take extreme personal offence when blown up and i hope those players take refuge in solo play for their enjoyment and my sanity.

After all, with such a grim picture being painted of open play by you surely you agree that nasty bois like me should be deprived of targets?

 

[Riverside]

Suggesting that the solution to the current PvP/pve "rift" is to make NPCs tougher is no solution at all.

If you logically follow the course through you're basically saying that your fix is that pve players should git gud, and that, if they have to outfit all their trade ships for pvp combat so as to deal with $random NPC encounter, then that would be ok. In other words, your suggested fix to the rift is to turn all pve player ships into PvP capable warships.

Even leaving asides the issues around creating human like NPCs, I'm guessing that you can possibly see where there's an issue with that concept?

I agree with this. For me, the problem (such as it is) is not with the NPCs being too weak (they aren't), it's with players being too strong. Skill should be rewarded, outfitting should not (so much).

The new engineering system in 3.0 has gone a long way towards making top tier equipment more accessible, but I believe diminishing returns should apply far more heavily to the best equipment such that good equipment rewarding high skill (eg a frag cannon where gains are massive for getting up close, or fixed long range sniper weapons) is not so much better than regular equipment.

Whatever solution is proposed will have downsides, it's not something consensus will ever be reached on. But any change needs to be done with an aim to close this gap, not widen it further.

I'd also like to remind any FDev employee reading this that changes to the game need to be accompanied by patch notes - the AI tweaks are rarely communicated well and I get the impression FDev just randomly change AI stuff with little to no testing or thought for undoing those changes; it's reactionary & poorly thought through. Some of it is excellent though.

 

[Martind Forlon]

Anarchy (and low security?):
- add weapons engineering to high rank NPCs
- double all trading/mission rewards for stations in Anarchy systems

... imo there is not need to make NPCs better everywhere.

 

[Old Duck]

This "Ignore User" feature would work better if the rest of you would stop quoting the people I ignore

 

[gribley]

First, I have to say, I cannot and will not regard anyone who intentionally misspells words because they think it's cool. It's not, it's pure stupidity. It will never be cool.

Now with that out of the way, I have this vision of how this particular attitude appears:

7600 km outside of a station, just outside the no-fire zone, sits a massively armed and armored ship. As a new pilot attempts to emerge from the station, the warship fires a fully volley, destroying the other ship, and sending out a message: "You suck, practice more." Not once, not twice, but over and over and over. No one will ever improve from this. Telling someone to improve while destroying them before they even have a chance does nothing for them, and nothing for the attacker, except frustrate one player and make the other look like a complete tool in the eyes of every sane person on the planet.

And as I have said repeatedly, those who do not wish to engage in PvP have gone to Private Groups, but what is the PvP community doing to police those who insist on "invading" those private groups to inflict themselves on those there? Aside from nothing and laughing about it?

Cool it on the personal attacks mate.
Im being civil here do me the same courtesy will you. I get it you dont like me, thats fine singing abuse totally establishes you as a mature and ballanced individual.

And as for that guy, avoid him. Pop to solo use a different station anything but coming back over and over.

Fun fact tho, its impossable to do that anymore. With police now coming in escalating waves and unbearable atr with station lasers this fantastical senario cannott happen for long

 

[verminstar]

No really. Im not some snarling monster. Im a university student who plays pvp games to have fun when the day us done.

The salt was once funny, but now its just gone overboard. It less annoyance for me, and less rebuys for them if people accept that open will likely get you sent to rebuy.

And as for "what am i gunna do" well lol.
You are asking me what i will do to make pve players go to solo for their own good. Ummm maybe i can pvp them??? That might be an effective techneque perhaps.

Ultimately its not nice to realise that some players take extreme personal offence when blown up and i hope those players take refuge in solo play for their enjoyment and my sanity.

After all, with such a grim picture being painted of open play by you surely you agree that nasty bois like me should be deprived of targets?

Fer a university student, yer grammar is worse than my daughter was when she was 6 years old.

Ye could pvp them certainly...nobody is saying ye cant...yer even free to take a pop at me but Im in open and know the risks...very few have ever managed to kill me but yer certainly very welcome to try by all means.

But that still doesnt make ye right and it still means that its yer attitude thats the problem...yer young, lots to learn go git gudder at life in general kiddo cos if I wanna argue with a stroppy teenager, I already have one of those at home ^

 

[gribley]

Dude. I am on a mobile phone at 1:28 am after a long day.

Also what on earth can do about people invading another persons pg?????

Its YOUR pg. You think i have a list of blokes who are going to attack mobius??? What kind of demand is that

 

[sb413197]

PVP designed ships are near-ideal for PVE as well. I always build my ships for being capable of doing PVP (although generally not truly ideal), while being excellent for PVE too. Long range laser based builds particularly.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Cool it on the personal attacks mate.
Im being civil here do me the same courtesy will you. I get it you dont like me, thats fine singing abuse totally establishes you as a mature and ballanced individual.

And as for that guy, avoid him. Pop to solo use a different station anything but coming back over and over.

Fun fact tho, its impossable to do that anymore. With police now coming in escalating waves and unbearable atr with station lasers this fantastical senario cannott happen for long

Sorry you think you're being personally attacked - you're not. The intentional misspelling of simple words is, that's all. I don't know you to like or dislike you. I do, however, dislike the toll that the internet takes on language, however, as they're is no excuse for it.

And "that guy" is just an example, not an actual player. But playing "Whack-a-mole" with new players, telling them they suck and to improve the whole time... it's an exercise in futility.

Even more fun fact: A hyperbole is an exaggerated example to illustrate a point.

 

[jasonbarron]

Based on reading the OP and then skipping to the tail end of the thread to comment on his ideas, I'm guessing the current tone and content of the posts' isn't what Frentox had in mind when he started this one. Too bad the community can't get past all the polarizing drama, because Frentox was on to something positive.

 

[Riverside]

Based on reading the OP and then skipping to the tail end of the thread to comment on his ideas, I'm guessing the current tone and content of the posts' isn't what Frentox had in mind when he started this one. Too bad the community can't get past all the polarizing drama, because Frentox was on to something positive.

Maybe you should read though the thread then.

 

[gribley]

Sorry you think you're being personally attacked - you're not. The intentional misspelling of simple words is, that's all. I don't know you to like or dislike you. I do, however, dislike the toll that the internet takes on language, however, as they're is no excuse for it.

And "that guy" is just an example, not an actual player. But playing "Whack-a-mole" with new players, telling them they suck and to improve the whole time... it's an exercise in futility.

Even more fun fact: A hyperbole is an exaggerated example to illustrate a point.

Ive never seal clubbed for the fun of it. Sure if a traders fails to comply with my demands for cargo they die but thats just keeping my word.

Its fairly well known that offensive pvp is extremely hard to do against another player, but its less well known that survival is pretty easy.

While i wouldn't term it like that to a gank victim Git-gud usally boils down to dont do suicidal things like figting interdictions, and low waking

If you like im willing to meet you ingame in a stock trader and let you try to interdict and gank me.

There are very few suitations where a bit of awareness and know how wont get you to safety