PvP The PvE <-> PvP Rift

[Kopachris]

Too easy in what ship, performing what task?

Perhaps Withnail's sentiment could be rephrased as: "It's too difficult to find tasks appropriate for end-game ship strength and pilot skill."

It's not so much that any particular task is too easy. There should definitely be plenty of easier and moderate content for players to grow on. The problem is that after reaching that tier of "even wing assassinations are easy in this ship" the typical suggestion offered is to try it in weaker ships, which is the wrong answer for a video game like this. For a game with a set and fully-released solo storyline (e.g. Skyrim, Fallout) it's perfectly acceptable to suggest artificial difficulty increases such as mods or personal limitations. But for a continuing, multiplayer game like Elite where it's possible to reach end-game equipment before... well, before the game is ending... there has to be content to interest the highest-level players other than PvP. Essentially, the suggestion to "do it again but weaker/higher difficulty" only works for re-playing games.

Basically, these people are asking: "I've done X and everything is easy now, did I finish the game?"
And you're saying: "Yes, now play it again but harder"
And that's a problem because the game isn't supposed to be finished already.

Where do we go from here? I don't have any suggestions to offer, just trying to see if I can clarify your positions to one another.

 

[Aashenfox]

I wish people would stop invoking the 2.0/2.1 craziness, we are talking about multicannons that fired PA rounds. That has nothing to do with any part of this discussion.

 

[Aashenfox]

Perhaps Withnail's sentiment could be rephrased as: "It's too difficult to find tasks appropriate for end-game ship strength and pilot skill."

It's not so much that any particular task is too easy. There should definitely be plenty of easier and moderate content for players to grow on. The problem is that after reaching that tier of "even wing assassinations are easy in this ship" the typical suggestion offered is to try it in weaker ships, which is the wrong answer for a video game like this. For a game with a set and fully-released solo storyline (e.g. Skyrim) it's perfectly acceptable to suggest artificial difficulty increases such as mods or personal limitations. But for a continuing, multiplayer game like Elite where it's possible to reach end-game equipment before... well, before the game is ending... there has to be content to interest the highest-level players other than PvP. Essentially, the suggestion to "do it again but weaker/higher difficulty" only works for replaying games.

Basically, these people are asking: "I've done X and everything is easy now, did I finish the game?"
And you're saying: "Yes, now play it again but harder"
And that's a problem because the game isn't supposed to be finished already.

Where do we go from here? I don't have any suggestions to offer, just trying to see if I can clarify your positions to one another.

If that is what he's saying, then I don't agree. I think FD have struck a good balance with the AI, when you consider that the smallest weakest ships are a factor of TWENTY weaker than the largest strongest ships fully engineered.

The fact that you can set your own difficulty by simply making an intelligent choice about which ship to take with you, is one of the best aspects of this game. Want an easy time? Take the corvette and faceroll. Want some real combat take a medium or small highly engineered ship against a wing of AI and test your skills.

Any dramatic increase or decrease of AI capability or equipment across the board would destroy what is a critical balance.

I agree with an oft expressed sentiment and that is that populated anarchy systems should be properly dangerous places, where only the best (engineered) AI don't fear to tread. At least then you could go somewhere and HAVE a meaningful one on one in your corvette.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Perhaps Withnail's sentiment could be rephrased as: "It's too difficult to find tasks appropriate for end-game ship strength and pilot skill."

It's not so much that any particular task is too easy. There should definitely be plenty of easier and moderate content for players to grow on. The problem is that after reaching that tier of "even wing assassinations are easy in this ship" the typical suggestion offered is to try it in weaker ships, which is the wrong answer for a video game like this. For a game with a set and fully-released solo storyline (e.g. Skyrim, Fallout) it's perfectly acceptable to suggest artificial difficulty increases such as mods or personal limitations. But for a continuing, multiplayer game like Elite where it's possible to reach end-game equipment before... well, before the game is ending... there has to be content to interest the highest-level players other than PvP. Essentially, the suggestion to "do it again but weaker/higher difficulty" only works for replaying games.

Basically, these people are asking: "I've done X and everything is easy now, did I finish the game?"
And you're saying: "Yes, now play it again but harder"
And that's a problem because the game isn't supposed to be finished already.

Where do we go from here? I don't have any suggestions to offer, just trying to see if I can clarify your positions to one another.

Well put.

I would add that, while there may be players skilled in combat, in highly Engineered ships, who find challenge to be lacking, the solution is not, in my opinion, to increase the difficulty level for all players, i.e. those who have just started the game, who don't have access to Engineers, who will never become skilled in combat, etc..

Therefore specific optional content, i.e. more challenging missions and USS with increased threat level to name two possible options, would be "fairer" in that they would offer challenge for those who sought it without changing the game fundamentally for all players.

I'd expect that one aspect of the introduction of Thargoids was a step in this direction.

 

[HBK]

I'm suggesting that Frontier know a lot more about game balancing, for the health of their game, than we do.

A bold assumption.

Only talking for myself, but I'd be OK with buffed up NPCs in some ExHazRES or something. Challenge is nice and a strongly engineered Vette is god-mode against current NPC. But then the rewards had better be worth it. I'm talking about 2mil per bounty or something. Why would I spend 10mn in a tight fight to get the same crap 200k reward?

Lately I tried to solo the elite wing assassination missions. They were fun but 2.5mil for that? lol

I can make more money by moving dung.

 

[HBK]

I'd expect that one aspect of the introduction of Thargoids was a step in this direction.

The #1 issue with Thargies is that they require specific weapons and defenses to defeat. That's a no-go for many people. Admittedly it's easier to fit a ship with AX weapons than to farm fire resist for Onyxia, but still. Most people wont bother. Hell they don't even bother outfitting a ship for combat in some cases. It's all artificial gating with specific gear requirements and as efficient as it can be from a pure retention standpoint, it's just a pretty meh gameplay mechanic.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The #1 issue with Thargies is that they require specific weapons and defenses to defeat. That's a no-go for many people. Admittedly it's easier to fit a ship with AX weapons than to farm fire resist for Onyxia, but still. Most people wont bother. Hell they don't even bother outfitting a ship for combat in some cases. It's all artificial gating with specific gear requirements and as efficient as it can be from a pure retention standpoint, it's just a pretty meh gameplay mechanic.

Yet we have players complaining that there's no challenge for the player who has been playing long enough to unlock all the required toys....

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

If that is what he's saying, then I don't agree. I think FD have struck a good balance with the AI, when you consider that the smallest weakest ships are a factor of TWENTY weaker than the largest strongest ships fully engineered.

The fact that you can set your own difficulty by simply making an intelligent choice about which ship to take with you, is one of the best aspects of this game. Want an easy time? Take the corvette and faceroll. Want some real combat take a medium or small highly engineered ship against a wing of AI and test your skills.

Any dramatic increase or decrease of AI capability or equipment across the board would destroy what is a critical balance.

I agree with an oft expressed sentiment and that is that populated anarchy systems should be properly dangerous places, where only the best (engineered) AI don't fear to tread. At least then you could go somewhere and HAVE a meaningful one on one in your corvette.

That choice is only available once players put themselves through the engineering hell. As vanilla I have no choice but have to face engineered AI nontheless.

 

[Kopachris]

The #1 issue with Thargies is that they require specific weapons and defenses to defeat. That's a no-go for many people. Admittedly it's easier to fit a ship with AX weapons than to farm fire resist for Onyxia, but still. Most people wont bother. Hell they don't even bother outfitting a ship for combat in some cases. It's all artificial gating with specific gear requirements and as efficient as it can be from a pure retention standpoint, it's just a pretty meh gameplay mechanic.

I would argue that high-level gear that's locked behind various in-game requirements (quests/missions, materials, rank/level) is not artificially gated. It's very common practice in game design. If you want certain high-level gear to do certain high-level activities, you have to earn it.

However, the manner in which FDev forces us to earn that equipment may be up for discussion. As for AX equipment, I haven't personally gone 'goid-hunting yet but as I understood it basic AX equipment is fairly easy to come by, if you know where to go. The wiki and EDDB have locations (reliance on 3rd-party tools is another discussion). Of course Guardian equipment has special requirements, but why shouldn't it? Is there anything else I'm missing? (As I said, haven't gone Thargoid hunting yet, so my understanding there is very likely incomplete.)

 

[M00ka]

I am beginning to think some here think that all but the newest newbie has a fully Engineered Cutter or Corvette or at minimum, highly desire one.

Boy are they way off the mark ......

 

[Stigbob]

I wish people would stop invoking the 2.0/2.1 craziness, we are talking about multicannons that fired PA rounds. That has nothing to do with any part of this discussion.

The PA bug aside the AI upgrade was a lot of fun while it lasted.

 

[Aashenfox]

That choice is only available once players put themselves through the engineering hell. As vanilla I have no choice but have to face engineered AI nontheless.

Are you saying that you find the AI challenging? If so, then I'm pleased. It should be challenging for a player with no engineering, but not punishingly so. The whole point (my whole point), is that players like yourself need to be catered to, so it's up to the rest of us to set our own difficulty.

Other games handle this with levelled zones. You're a level 1, you're in Goldshire. You're a level 70, you're in Northrend, etc. Since Elite doesn't have that and I expect people wouldn't want it, the only alternative is specific zones where one can go and find a 'world boss' type encounter, and the rest of the content by necessity remains trivial (to the top 20%).

 

[[VR]tailgunner30uk]

Not at all.
You misunderstood entirely, and the most popular PVP ships are medium.
And the OP is primarily a PVEr...

Besides, there are tons of harmless Cutters and Corvettes already, lol...

Unfortunately for you I understand all to well, remembering the outcry when NPCs used engineered modules. All but the most dedicated PvPers found parts of the game almost unplayable.

I used the word "eventually" for a reason. The opposition you face is in part a function of the ship you fly and your combat rank. To be able to remain effective in the face of PvP NPCs the player will have to upgrade. The game will then compensate by increasing the capabilities of the ships you meet, and so on.

I deliberately gave NO consideration to how the OP choses to play the game. Rather I addressed his arguments with respect to putting PvP class NPCs (by definition engineered" into the game to "INCREASE" the difficulty for him. As I pointed out, any player can manage the level of difficulty for themselves. In the CZ I played in, the lowest NPC level was competent, the highest was Elite (No Harmless at all. FYI), because after over 3 years of play my, probably over generous, rank is Dangerous. To engage in the Ross CG, all I chose to do was exchange the 2 class 1 engineered pulse lasers for 2 standard beam lasers. If you start putting PvP grade NPCs into the game, by definition you compel everyone to up-spec. their ships to meet that challenge. The only alternatives to this become, avoiding parts of the game, or leaving the game completely.

Whether PvP is undertaken in "Corvette class" or "medium class" ships is somewhat irrelevant. By definition to be competitive in PvP involves equipping your ship in a specific way including engineering. PvP class NPCs would not be restricted by RNG Therefore they would at the top level in all class ships and be maxed out with engineered modules. For the vast majority of players that would be unplayable. And for most PvP payers meeting a wing of these NPCs might be fun once or twice but battling "unkillable" NPCS repeatedly? Consider meeting ATR level ships in every CZ, all focused upon you. How long do you think that would be fun for?

There are many areas in the game that could do with attention, missions, mining, exploration, powerplay to name but a few. Like most players I would prefer Frontier concentrate on those areas rather than waste even more development cycles on PvP vs PvE. In the end no one will be satisfied. and nothing of lasting value will be achieved.

07 Commander.

 

[HBK]

Yet we have players complaining that there's no challenge for the player who has been playing long enough to unlock all the required toys....

The problem is that it kinda goes against the "play how you want" hidden rule.

"Wanna hunt Thargies?" "Well you need this and this and that." Not very compelling if you ask me ...

 

[DukeIronHand]

I am beginning to think some here think that all but the newest newbie has a fully Engineered Cutter or Corvette or at minimum, highly desire one.

Boy are they way off the mark ......

Their not forgetting at all - they just don’t care.
They think the game should revolve around them and what they want. Damn everyone else.
Guess the hope is that if they make enough noise they will get what they want.

 

[withnail]

I would love to have harder areas. Yes, with the 2.0 AI.

Not all of them had multi cannon AI.

And no one is addressing how to keep pvp'ers entertained. Keeping it easy and not using engineering is a ridiculous idea.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The problem is that it kinda goes against the "play how you want" hidden rule.

"Wanna hunt Thargies?" "Well you need this and this and that." Not very compelling if you ask me ...

Hunting them is possible in any ship.

Being effective against them when they are encountered is another matter entirely.

Plus, going after them at all is entirely optional.

Don't want to outfit one's ship for a task, don't do the task - which applies to many tasks....

 

[withnail]

My corvette spends most of it's time gathering dust, smaller weaker ships are just more challenging and fun.

Same here. I am currently working on an Imperial eagle and a vulture.

I prefer to play in small and medium ships personally.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I would love to have harder areas. Yes, with the 2.0 AI.

Not all of them had multi cannon AI.

And no one is addressing how to keep pvp'ers entertained. Keeping it easy and not using engineering is a ridiculous idea.

If harder areas are desired, make a suggestion to that effect in the relevant forum.

Presumably PvPers prefer PvP - and the best suggestions will probably come from players who prefer PvP, as those players know what they like. Those suggestions, when they affect others' access to existing game content, often prove to be contentious though....

 

[Stigbob]

Same here. I am currently working on an Imperial eagle and a vulture.

I prefer to play in small and medium ships personally.

Chieftains very nice, my new favourite.